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Walking problems? Pinch Collars


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Yikes! Our soon to be 4 year old rescued "Carson" is a hand full on walks. We should have begun strict training when we rescued him at almost 2 yrs old, but we didn't. Now, the honeymoon is over. We have tried the halti at about 3yrs and worked for a bit. His walking is much to be desired.

 

He barks at EVERY dog or cat and lunges forward alot. We keep him on a short leash and he walks very close by us...

 

Went to Pet Smart and they said to try the Easy Walk harness...helped a little but still not very well.

 

He had an FHO done in Sept of last year and so we baby'ed him a lot a first, cuz he didn't respond as well as most dogs with bearing wt on it...now, vet says he's fine, but he must walk.... I'm tired on him pulling me and I don't want to be hurt or have him hurt. I tugged on him with the "easy walk" harness and he was like a 2 year old in the grocery store...fell to the ground in surprise, thought all the "porch people" would think I was such a rotten mother and abusing him. His rehab girl that worked with him after surgery suggested we get a pinch collar...I haven't wanted to but my husband and I think it's the only way. She used it for a very short time only on her dogs who would not walk well, and they learned quickly. Then, sometimes he will just stop and do the stare and not BUDGE!

 

We need HELP! Any ideas?

 

 

CarolAnn[/size]

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Yes, first forget the pinch collar this is not going to solve your problem. This is a training problem and all the pulling and pulling back in the world is not going to solve it. This most certainly is not the only way and I would question the advise of the re-hab girl. I would suggest you go back to basic training even enroll in a course. I have a young dog who does this same thing. I expect it of a young dog and I will train it out of him but this also is a question of basic training and not just in walking, in everything. Take a course you will probably have a great time with it and you will probably end up with a great dog.

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I am also kind of sceptical of the the pinch collars. It can hurt dogs with long hair, by pulling the hair out. It could also be a really bad thing for a dog who takes correction very easily. Daisy is a very soft dog when it comes to corrections, yet when we walk her, she pulls like a mad man! I have a gentle leader that she responds to very well, but if yours doesn't respond to that I think an obedience class is in order. Find a trainer you like (sit in on some classes) and one that uses positive reinforcement. He will be walking like a dream in not time.. (well usually anyway!) We found a class for reactive dogs, went through that and we are now enrolled in our second class with hopes of getting into some agility and it's a blast! We've really bonded and it's a lot of fun for both of us! Good Luck!

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We used a pinch collar on our Aussies in training class (GSD instructor). My hubby had our Sam and I had our Alfie. It works great and doesn't hurt the dog if done right. We only used it for a few times. AFter that we use a regular collar and just use a pop stroke to get their attention. They both walk like a dream now. Just a few short lessons cured our problems. Might work for you. You can always try it for a short time. The collars aren't too expensive. JMO

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JMO as a person who owns two dogs with a tendency to pull: no device is going to fix it. You have to train it out of them.

 

Be extremely vigilant and focused on teaching them to walk on a leash. Random changes of direction. (You can entertain the porch people: See the weird lady walking her dog? four steps, making an abrupt right turn, ten steps, complete reversal of direction, etc. What on earth is she doing?) Intervene before he focuses on the cat/squirrel/good pee bush. Keep it interesting and unpredictable - walk faster, slower, stop, down him, make him stay, release him, make abrupt changes in direction with no warning, teach him rally turns, whatever. Your goal would be training your dog to follow your lead when on a leash and not to get anywhere on your walks. If the task of staying with you is sufficiently challenging, he is less likely to look for other entertainment.

 

I, personally, dislike walking my dogs this way. I want them to be free to wander and sniff, and just sweetly respect the leash and come back to me with a light hint of a tug or "by me" - a nice, relaxed amble. Alas, my dogs had different goals, so we march along, for now. As they get better, they get more freedom.

 

A pinch collar is better than a choke collar in that the dogs don't seem to choke themselves on them, but I've seen dogs pull their handlers around on pinch collars.

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Seelie, that was a really good bit of advise in teaching a dog heelwork and to walk properly on a leash, thats exactly how Ive dont it for years. It teaches the dog to focus on you, instead of everything else. Ive not known one yet that when I turned right and he was going left, that he didnt catch up pretty quick, and paid a lot better attention there after. There are lots of things a person in so far as training can do themselves with their dogs, and dont need to run off to a trainer to get it done. Thoughtful and accurate posts like that are lovely to see.

A prong, as many other tools for training, does have its place, and it is up to you, to decide wether this would be a tool that first, you felt comfortable using, granted that FIRST you understand how to use it, and how it works rather than look at it and say it looks to creul. And second, you dont have a very soft dog that could not handle the correction. Ive used prongs on many breeds of dogs, including Border Collies, and allowing them to pull on it, is not utilizing the tool properly. It is a pop and release tool, and it works very nicely for a dog that will pull till it chokes. or lunges. Personally, I would reccomend it and have, over a choke chain anyday. But, Ive used them and been sucsessful in useing them. Fitting them on the dog and placing them on the dog properly for them to give the right type of correction is half the battle. Consistancy is the other half.

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I know what a choker is but what's this pinch collar? Same thing as one of the adjustable fabric 'slip' collars? That's what I have had on Sassy from day one (following the first obedience class). Worked great in conjunction with a '3 strikes you're out' technique to training her on leash. First failure to heel, turn around and go half way back (from where you started). Second attempt, same thing. Third time, walk time over, back in the house! Well if only I would have maintained that philosophy over the last few years. Don't walk Sassy much these days and when we do, I'm always (well, occasionally) reminding her to 'slow down', 'back', or 'heel'. Hey. we're much older, the two of us just need to have fun!

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Prong collars (also called pinch collars) are a series of chain links with open ends turned towards the dog's neck so that, when the collar is tightened, it pinches the naturally loose skin around the dog's neck. When properly adjusted and used, it startles the dog and gives a sharp correction, but it is very difficult if not impossible to actually puncture the skin. And while it looks painful, it's actually less harmful to the dog than a slip or choke collar. The advantage of the prong collar over the choke collar is that the circumference is limited so that it is impossible to compress the animal's throat and cause trachea damage. The prong collar also requires less force (often just a gentle wrist flick) to execute a correction. Another advantage is that, like with the Martingale collar any pressure on the dog's neck is spread out over a larger area than with most buckle collars, and with all choke chains.

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The place where I help with lessons utilizes the pinch collar for certain dogs and certain handlers, and only when the class instructor decides to try one on a particular dog (and it's always a trial situation - if it doesn't seem suitable, it's removed). I think it has its place but, of course, proper training is the ultimate goal, not the use of a "tool" that simply avoids the symptoms. We also use the Easy Walker, and that is the preferred alternative if it suits the dog and handler.

 

I have seen proper use of a pinch collar (and we call it a prong collar, which I think well defines it) make the difference between a dog staying in a household and having a good life, and going to (or back to) the shelter to an uncertain future.

 

I think that the humane use of the pinch is all in the adjustment and the handler's utilization. You need to use both "rings" on your lead to avoid overtightening (and tightening is limited to an extent even when using just one ring); you do not tug or pop as the collar is a self-correcting tool (if the dog pulls, the collar exerts pressure; the harder the dog pulls, the more pressure is exerted); and the collar should be adjusted to ride high on the dog's neck, not low, so that it remains in the right place for maximum control with minimal pressure.

 

Most equipment can be used humanely and reasonably and, by the same token, can be used inhumanely. It is a handler's ultimate responsibility to use tools and techniques properly, fairly, and humanely.

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I haven't wanted to but my husband and I think it's the only way.

 

Taking into account the fact that this is not something you really want to do, I would seek out alternatives seriously. One place on the Internet that you might look into is the peaceablepaws yahoo list. The clickersolutions yahoo list is another where you might find good suggestions, even if you don't train with a clicker.

 

There are several things that I would try in a case like this.

 

1. Make sure the Easy Walk is fitted properly.

 

I got one of these for Dean when we first adopted him and he pulled like crazy and he absolutely adores wearing it. At first he didn't like it and I found that I had it on him incorrectly. I went back and re-read the instructions for putting it on him and tried again and his dislike disappeared. Just for kicks, I tried it on Speedy - who never has been a puller - and he liked having it on as well.

 

I'm not saying that every dog is just automatically going to like it, but checking to make sure that you have it fitted correctly is definitely worth a try. The harness should be comfortable for the dog and when it tightens across the front, it should still be comfortable - it should not squeeze the dog's shoulders together.

 

2. Once that is done, I would make it highly rewarding for the dog just to have it on. I would put it on the dog and not attach a leash, feed the dog treats, take it off and the treats stop - several times a day. Once the dog is fine with me putting it on, I would attach a leash in the house, reward, remove the leash, etc. I'd be looking for the dog to actually get excited when I put the harness and leash on.

 

At that point, I would take it outside, but just go a very little way, reward, return to the house, remove it. I would try to avoid pulling on it, especially at that point.

 

If the dog had no issues with the harness at that point, I'd actually be looking for the dog to enjoy wearing it at this point, I would try using it normally and see what I see.

 

3. Aside from the work with the harness, I would start to train the dog to walk on a loose leash in the house as a separate training program and gradually move it outside. The Easy Walk most likely won't teach the dog to walk on a loose leash, but a pinch collar does not usually do this either. Most people I see with pinch collars on their dogs always have them on the dog. I can't think of anyone I know who started using one who eventually stopped because the problem was suddenly fixed.

 

If it came to a choice between desensitizing and counter conditioning the dog to the Easy Walk or using a pinch collar, I would do a lot more work with the harness, or seek out other solutions altogether.

 

I hope some of that helps!

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After trying every other method out there, I finally resorted to using a pinch collar to train Taz to walk without pulling. I did use it as a training tool and she no longer needs it, but does now walk well on a leash. This is the collar I used http://www.discount-pet-superstore.com/dog...iningcollar.htm

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Yikes! Our soon to be 4 year old rescued "Carson" is a hand full on walks. We should have begun strict training when we rescued him at almost 2 yrs old, but we didn't. Now, the honeymoon is over. We have tried the halti at about 3yrs and worked for a bit. His walking is much to be desired.

 

He barks at EVERY dog or cat and lunges forward alot. We keep him on a short leash and he walks very close by us...

 

Went to Pet Smart and they said to try the Easy Walk harness...helped a little but still not very well.

 

He had an FHO done in Sept of last year and so we baby'ed him a lot a first, cuz he didn't respond as well as most dogs with bearing wt on it...now, vet says he's fine, but he must walk.... I'm tired on him pulling me and I don't want to be hurt or have him hurt. I tugged on him with the "easy walk" harness and he was like a 2 year old in the grocery store...fell to the ground in surprise, thought all the "porch people" would think I was such a rotten mother and abusing him. His rehab girl that worked with him after surgery suggested we get a pinch collar...I haven't wanted to but my husband and I think it's the only way. She used it for a very short time only on her dogs who would not walk well, and they learned quickly. Then, sometimes he will just stop and do the stare and not BUDGE!

 

We need HELP! Any ideas?

CarolAnn[/size]

 

 

Stick with the Halti it worked for me.

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Molly had been quite a puller but now we have her on a front lead harness and it has worked wonders. If she pulls, it is easy to turn her around to focus on me, which is what makes it work so well, I think.

 

Because she quit pulling so hard with it on right away, the entire attitude with both me and DH about fun walks with her changed. That taught Molly that walking without pulling was the way to go. So she quit pulling hard on her collar times we took her out on it.

 

Once she was comfortable in the front lead, I started working on teaching her to walk with a completely loose leash. Now she is mostly walking on a real loose leash on the harness and with minimal pulling on the collar. The change is quite impressive.

 

This also happened along with some positive obedience training that also might have helped. For a good training program that includes great tips for loose leash walking, check out The Levels Book by Sue Ailsby. The entire thing is available online.

 

It really seems to help to start with teaching the dog to keep the leash loose when you're standing still. If the dog doesn't understand that, how will it manage to keep the leash loose when you're walking?

 

Good luck finding a method that works for you and your dog. It takes a lot of consistency and hard work, but it's worth it.

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This is no help to anyone, but I just wanted to share. Yesterday after reading this post, I thought I would try the Halti on Murphy for our morning walk. He has been pulling quite abit. He hates the thing, he layed and pawed at his nose and we ended up not using it and he did pretty good on his own.

 

I had left the Halti on top of his crate when he went to bed last nite and this morning it was gone! I found the buckles and ring in his crate he ate the rest. :D I guess he let me know what he thought of that :rolleyes:

 

Pam

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I've actually heard that a lot of dogs do not like Haltis. That's why I never invested in one even though I could get one over here and instead ordered a front lead harness from the US and paid the shipping to get it sent to me. Molly has done great in it from the start and is very happy to stand still to have it put on for walks.

 

I hope Murphy can pass the eaten halti without problems...

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After trying every other method out there, I finally resorted to using a pinch collar to train Taz to walk without pulling. I did use it as a training tool and she no longer needs it, but does now walk well on a leash. This is the collar I used http://www.discount-pet-superstore.com/dog...iningcollar.htm

 

I resorted to using this exact same one (plastic prongs) for my spaniel mix and it's the only thing that has worked so far. I've not given up trying without it, but after a year of not having any luck I'm taking a break. Jedi is soft and doesn't need anything like it, so I guess you need to know your dog and use what's best in your particular situation. I'm thinking of trying the easy walk next. The local pet store said I could come in and try it out before I buy it. I have a feeling Cadi would absolutely rebel at the halti but we might try it.

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This is no help to anyone, but I just wanted to share. Yesterday after reading this post, I thought I would try the Halti on Murphy for our morning walk. He has been pulling quite abit. He hates the thing, he layed and pawed at his nose and we ended up not using it and he did pretty good on his own.

 

I had left the Halti on top of his crate when he went to bed last nite and this morning it was gone! I found the buckles and ring in his crate he ate the rest. :D I guess he let me know what he thought of that :rolleyes:

 

Pam

 

au contraire! That one helped to put a smile on my face this morning! I suppose some might say that's just unaceptable behavior on Murphy's part, but in my eyes this is a case to listen to your dog and find another method.

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Even positive trainers like Pat Miller have gotten away from GLs and Haltis because so many dogs find them aversive, even with

TONS of CC/DS.

Personally I just don't like prong collars and wouldn't use one. One factor is that dogs well know the difference when they have a certain type of collar on and when they don't.... whatever that may be.... and I have really gotten away from using aversives.

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I had left the Halti on top of his crate when he went to bed last nite and this morning it was gone! I found the buckles and ring in his crate he ate the rest. :D I guess he let me know what he thought of that :rolleyes:

 

Pam

 

:D Tell me there was not a LITTLE anger involved there at that halti! :D I agree with Cool Dave

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I can't resist jumping in here! I have used everything over the years and I now teach at my training club. The one thing I have learned is that all these things are TOOLS to assist in training, but the training is the ultimate goal. If used longer than necessary they become crutches. The other thing I have learned is that there is no single tool that is the answer for every dog. My experiences with my own dogs over the years have confirmed these things.

 

The first time I used a pinch/prong collar, the dog used it for a couple of walks and the lightbulb went on and we never needed it again. This also happened with an early head halter on another dog. The second dog I used the pinch/prong on did not actively fight it, just pulled anyway if she deemed something exciting enough to withstand the pinch, and my end of the walks were easier. But after the first week we discovered a double row of puncture wounds around her neck on the left side. No more pinch/prong for her! Another dog fought the head halter so hard that her lips bled. No more GL for that one.

 

Head halters - I had one dog who was much more controllable on the Halti than on the Gentle Leader, and she did not fight it. (Miss bloody lips) At the time the Halti strap fell farther away from the eyes than the GL did, and this is a biggie for some dogs. They both get redesigned and "improved" now and then. With my red Ruby, the GL is the most effective tool. But I had several failures with it on other dogs.

 

No-pull harnesses. - In spite of the fact that the Easy Walk comes in Between Sizes, Ruby cannot be properly fit with one. She is leggy and very slender in body, deep chested and narrow muzzled. She can, however, wear a Sense-ible harness from softouchconcepts.com which is the easiest to put on of any of the commercial harnesses. I also have a Cahill homemade no-pull harness for her, and I use both depending on the situation, where we are, and how much freedom I want Ruby to have. The Cahill homemade harness gives the least control and I use it when it is appropriate to put Ruby on her 36' long line so she can run. The Sense-ible is my medium control tool, and the GL is the maximum control tool.

 

That being said, when Ruby is doing Rally or in class, she heels beautifully on a flat buckle collar or martingale. Her behavior is entirely situational. She knows what kind of walk she is going to have by the way she is "dressed."

 

So you may have to try different things before you hit on the answer for you and your dog. My other two BC's walk perfectly all the time on anything, and consequently their walks are usually on flat buckle collars and Flexi-leads. Ruby will NEVER be on a Flexi-lead!

 

Kathy Robbins

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I, personally, have major issues with the "pinch" collar. I used to have a GSD, whose obedience instructor wanted all dogs in the class to wear one. She put one on our dog, and she had a total panic attack. Started shaking, crying, etc. Needless to say, the dog never wore a pinch collar again, but she was petrified of the trainer from that day on. She was not normally a fearful dog at all.

 

Two other dogs in the class, a boxer and another GSD, started becoming aggressive towards their owners when corrected with the pinch collar.

 

For my GSD, she eventually learned not to pull with one of those under the leg anti-pull harnesses. I forget the exact name of it. It was a long time ago.

 

I know it works for some dogs, but I would be very, very hesitant.

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In the last 20 years I've been watched trends of training go full circle enough times to be dizzy.

 

Every tool has plus and minuses. In regard to the pinch, it has to be sized and fitted properly and preferably with a back up plain collar and leash while the dog learns what it is. It is not a jerk and pull collar - so education is required on the owner's part (as well as self control)

 

What is good about it:

 

requires little arm stength - both the smaller and less strong owners can use it correctly.

 

is safe on damaged throats and collapsing trachea dogs - even if they pull. And since it prevents pulling, it is even safer than a flat collar in these circumstances.

 

I see relatively little "wig out" with it even during the first session- as opposed to Gentle Leaders and Haltis, which really upset most dogs right off the bat. It's also much easier to fit than a harness - which for an ants-in-my-pants big and pulling dog can be next to impossible.

 

It corrects the pulling issues much faster than any other collar or harness I've used. Many people don't have the luxury of time when it comes to getting safe, non-painful leash walking for them and the dog.

 

To change to a regular collar it requires less transition planning than a harness

 

What's bad:

 

If it's misused it can be abusive and create problems. But that's true of any method or collar

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Very good post Lenajo. These "tools" must be used properly. I have seen people with choke chains on their dogs the wrong way and they are constantly getting a correction. What does that teach the dog? I know that prong/pinch collars have the "mean look" but they are a good correction and a constant one, where a choke chain is a pull to one side and can actually harm the dog more than a pinch.

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I have never used a pinch collar so I cant speak from personal experience. However, I do agree with any tool becoming a crutch and that the ultimate goal is the training itself. You can see this with folks who use e-collars as a primary tool.

 

I have used choke collars (and still do) for stubborn dogs or something that needs extra attention. I prefer the nylon versions and dont agree with many that state they dont release as fast - I think they release more quickly and due to the lesser weight stay higher on the neck. However, using a choker to rag on any dog is wrong. In your case (heeling) I dont ever pull on a choker at all. I let the dog run out of leash by turning in a different direction and they very quickly get the point. On dogs that take correction much more easily I just use a standard flat collar.

 

I recommend this article to a lot of people who have questions about heeling. This is the method that I was taught originally and I still use it today. The article is to the point with enough detail to help even those with minimal experience. The key is to NEVER tug the dogs collar and just let them run out of leash.

 

Once they are outside of the "batters box" just turn and walk another direction (90 or 180 degrees)...left turns come once the dog is paying attention. Figure eights, or my preference is the imaginary box, refines the heel and scoots the head back into perfect placement. To do so just lift straight up on the leash over the dogs neck (dont lift them off of the ground!) and make your left turn. Soon enough just a little upward pressure cues the dog and eventually you need no cues at all.

 

Here is the article:

 

Heeling Article

 

Ryan

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