Fighting Dogs

[flrpwr52]

Kya, 1 1/2 years old, is attacking Zoe my 3 1/2 year old. It only happen outside, never in the house.

 

Zoe is a soft dog and Kya is very aware of movements and sounds all the time, very aware of her surroundings. The attacks only take place when my husband is around. I have never had anything happen when I'm alone with the dogs, which is most of the time.

 

Ari, 2 1/2 years old, doesn't get into it ever. She stands back and watches the two go at it.

 

Things usually start when Zoe is close to my husband and is getting petted or just talked to. Kya will walk over slowly and in a blink of an eye jump Zoe.

I always watch because it doesn't happen every time but I do tell Kya to leave it every time I see her going toward Zoe when Zoe is by my husband.

 

We react as fast as we can to separate them. It's obvious they aren't out to kill each other but I don't want any injuries either. We grab tails or back feet and pull them apart and put them in a down stay until they can relax. There is no yelling and we try not to make a big deal out of it, maybe that's where we are wrong. We don't do the Cesar roll. After a few minutes things are back to normal, well not fighting.

 

This happens about every couple of weeks. This fighting didn't start until Kya got to be about 11 months and has continued since then.

 

I'd like for them to be outside around my husband without fighting. I'd prefer Kya didn't have to wear any special "gear" to do this.

I have her wearing a gentle leader when she is outside now but then she sulks around and hides. I don't know if this is a good thing or not. When I remove it will she go back to being the attack brat? I am open for any suggestions as this is getting very old.

[Tranquilis]

I wonder - Is it possible that your husband isn't established in position as The Boss, and that Kya is social climbing by putting Zoe 'in her place'? I generally see fights of that nature where there's an unsettled dominance situation, or when something is added to upset the existing dominance structure.

 

Examples - I volunteer at a rescue, and I've seen a number of spats where the dogs had been getting along fine until another (familliar) or new (unfamilliar) dog is added, or one of the handlers comes into the immediate area. In one case, there's a shifting of the pecking order in the immediate area, and in the other case, there's a new element - the human - that's adding input.

[flrpwr52]

I had the same thought.

He comes home from work and upsets the order of things. He is also a very laid back guy and doesn't usually discipline the dogs so his ranking could be in question.

 

Any suggestions?

[Tranquilis]

Send your husband, with Kya, to obedience classes. He needs to be able to dominate the situation, and the dogs, especially Kya, need to *know* he can.

[2 Devils]

It is not necessarily about dominance. Not everything is dominance. It could be resource guarding of the husband. I do think HUBBY needs to deal with it by paying attention. He needs to start making sure that if he is petting or playing with Zoe that Kya stays away. He needs to take control not dominate. If he cannot do it then have the dogs out separately so you avoid the situation. Being laid back is not an excuse for not correcting a dog.

 

You should be able to stop these incidences with a verbal correction. If you cannot then it is more serious than may realize and it may get worse unless the situation is corrected.

[Tranquilis]

It is not necessarily about dominance. Not everything is dominance. It could be resource guarding of the husband.

Plausible - Entirely possbile. Even still, sending Hubby to classes with Kya will put her in a position of being used to obeying him, so he can more easily break that stuff up before it turns into a fight.

[flrpwr52]

I am not able to stop the fighting with a verbal command and I don't think that is unusual. Once the fight has started we have to physically separate them.

 

Any ideas about Kya wearing the gentle leader? She is very subdued with it on and I don't think she would ever start a fight while wearing it. But when it comes off will the behavior start again?

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I agree that it could either be resource gaurding or a dominance thing. I think that hubby definately needs to take a larger roll in the training of the dogs either way. I think a class for the two of them or even all four of you, might be a good idea.

 

As for the gentle leader, are you talking about the one that buckles behind the ears and the leash clips under the chin? Because her reaction seems a little bit weird. I use this to walk my dog ocasionally and she is perfectly fine, she does however react like you mention when a muzzle is used on her and for that reason she is never muzzled. And if she is like this with the gl on, chances are it's because she just doesn't like something around her nose. It's not going to change her attitude after it's off. That's just my opinion though...

 

edt to add, I personally don't believe "alfa rolls" do anything at all. And you are going about taking them apart the appropriate way. Yelling will only make emotions worse and grabbing from anywhere other than tail and back end is going to get you bit. You could also try spraying them with water, throwing a blanket or coat over each one (don't put them under the same one...) or dropping something really loud right next to them.

[Jedismom]

Unless the relationship that your husband has with the dogs changes, yes I believe Kya will start a fight again when the gentle leader is off.

 

I had a similar thing happen with my two a while back. Cadi is my alpha female and Jedi is my submissive male and a bit of a social climber. Anyway, when I am petting Jedi or Cadi, it is not unusual for one to come over and try to push the other out of the way so they could get some petting. I will put a stop to it...make them sit and wait their turn because I am the one who gets to decide who gets petted and when. When they get into a scuffle one verbal correction from me and they immediately break it up. You should be able to do this with your dogs also, unless they are trying to kill each other, in which case no, they won't hear you. They consider me their leader so they listen to me.

 

My son, however, was not as high in the social hierachy and we had to work on that. One time Cadi actually turned around and nipped Jedi to get him away from my son, so that she could have all the attention. She immediately got a time out and then my son went to work interacting with both dogs using the NILIF system. Did he want to have this extra responsibility? No, not really. But after some education on my part, he realized we'd continue having problems unless he stepped up for awhile. He did because he really loves Jedi and Cadi and wanted to be their leader also. He's 13 yrs. old. Sooo...I think hubby can do it. If he won't, then I guess you'll have to keep the dogs apart when they are around him.

 

Good luck!

[flrpwr52]

Yes I do mean a gentle leader as in the type you use for walking a dog. I don't know why she has this type of reaction to it but she does. She does not paw at it to get it off and she changes her attitude when it is on.

 

We don't do "alpha rolls". We separate them and have them do a down stay. We do no yelling or discipline at all, only separate them to stop them from fighting.

 

I agree my husband has to take more care with who is around him. Believe me he has come a long way since his first obedience class. I realize he has to step up and be more firm with the dogs.

 

NILF is a good place for him to start.

Thanks.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Yes! NILF is a great idea.

I had to do that with my bf. Daisy thinks he's kind of a joker, you know, "Mr. Fun Time". He was her play toy not her boss. One day she snapped at him pretty bad when he was taking a bone away from her. Needless to say, I took the bone away and tore a strip off him about how he needs to take this stuff seriously or next time it might be a finger instead of a miss. After a couple of weeks of hand feeding and him on strict potty detail, sit and wait for him to exit first she respects him A LOT more!

[flrpwr52]

We have most of the everyday stuff in place. My hubby makes them all wait until he gives the OK to eat, they wait at the door, he makes them do something before they get pets, etc. That's why I am so stumped by this behavior.

 

We just came in from some afternoon training and Ky was not wanting Zoe to have a turn and was going to jump ahead until I told her to get back. She stopped dead in her tracks and let Zoe past. I don't think that would have happened if hubby were here.

 

I am more of the trainer and he is more of the fun play guy so I think for now he will have to work on some daily training. 5 - 10 minutes for him should be good to start with.

 

If there are any other ideas let me know, keep them coming.

[Tranquilis]

I am not able to stop the fighting with a verbal command and I don't think that is unusual. Once the fight has started we have to physically separate them.

Well, yes - that's the usual. You want to stop the problem before it turns into a fight, when they're still able to respond. Once they get started in on each other, you've got little choice but physically seperating them.

 

Edit:

BTW: One of the most effective fight-stoppers I've ever seen is to take the fighting dogs by their hind legs and walk them backwards, kind of a reverse 'wheelbarrow" move. Turn as you do that, and it forces the dog to not only back up, but side-step, and makes it *very* hard for the dog to turn on you, if they're so inclined. Of course, you need two people for that. Or one person, and a door or gate that can be pushed shut between the combatants.

[sweet_ceana]

Ceana is more calm with a gentle leader on as well. I believe she feels like she does not have to be in control when she wears it. Because we had so much control of her leashed with the GL, she just no associates wearing it with letting go of control. This is what the GL is intended to do, it is not a muzzle.

 

Is Kya aggressive with other dogs or just Zoe? That should tell you if it is a Kya thing or a balance/ relationship issue between the two dogs and hubby. i agree that obedience class will help. If control is the issue this will give more confidence and assure kya that someone else can "handle," it without her. If it is dominance then it will also reinforce rolls.

 

Poke and Ceana used to fight, hard core. Now when they begin to escalate too far while playing I can call them off verbally. I just clap my hands and say "ALL DONE!" and both dogs back off each other and go sit down.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

We just came in from some afternoon training and Ky was not wanting Zoe to have a turn and was going to jump ahead until I told her to get back. She stopped dead in her tracks and let Zoe past. I don't think that would have happened if hubby were here.

 

Keep an eye on her when he's not around and start getting to know their body language, maybe Ky is having some difficulties with her place in the pack. Maybe it is an issue between them and you are only really noticing it when he's around because the first time you noticed it he was there....? Sometimes our brain plays funny tricks on us.

[flrpwr52]

Kya is now and has been in obedience classes for about a year. She doesn't have problems in class.

 

Kya did have a problem at the dog park when another dog came running at her, she was about 7 months old. Since that happened we haven't been back to the dog park.

 

I don't have a problem stopping them from doing anything before they get into it. If it's time to go in I only have to say it once and they are at the door as with most other things I tell them, but once the fight starts they don't hear me.

 

As far as stopping the fights we grab either the back legs or the tail. I'm going to keep a pail of water on the deck and see if that breaks them up if there is another go around.

[urge to herd]

Don't let the fights start. I've got 2 girls, one is a resource guarder of me. Through painful experience. (friggin terrifying to me, and torn ears/scratched eyes/punctured cheek to Sami) I have learned to keep an eagle eye on both dogs. Your situation could easily escalate into injuries, etc.

 

I'm the one who gets guarded by Shoshone at our house, and I don't let her approach me any more. I go to her or call her to me to pet, coo, play with, etc. She does not get to choose. Hubby needs to understand that it is him Ky is wanting all to herself, and it is Hubby who needs to get Ky to understand that she can't have that. Period. You may want to have an experienced trainer come observe the whole household. For right now, I'd put all 3 dogs on a strict routine of 2 in down stays while a third gets worked or trained or petted. Briefly at first, but working up to longer.

 

It sounds harsh, but rushing a bleeding dog to the vet is harsher. I don't think of dominance or pack place. I think that I don't ever want to have to tear Shoshone off Sam again, so what do I have to do?

 

Best of luck, I hope you can find a way to work this out.

 

Ruth n the BC3

[2 Devils]

The point I was trying to make is the 2 of you know a fight will probably happen which means you should always be on guard to make sure it stops before it starts.

 

Ruth makes a good point. Don't allow Kya to approach your husband (he needs to enforce it). Kya must be asked to come over or he goes to her period. You can also start the routine with all the dogs. No dog gets pets without being asked to come over.

[Bordercentrics]

A comment on the gentle leader - the two straps go around the dog in the two places that a mother dog will use to grab and correct a pup - the back of the neck and the muzzle. That is a natural correction for a dog and will stop a behavior. Some also say it calms them down. I find the latter to be true for my red Ruby.

 

Are you just letting her wear it while loose in the yard? I would question the usefulness of that. Also the safety, as there is a ring hanging down below the chin that could get caught on something. Or in the case of a tussle, the other dog's canine tooth could get caught and break. The only equipment I can think of that would be useful when a dog is loose with others is a basket muzzle (I prefer plastic over metal). The gentle leader is really only for walking and for head control when needed.

 

Kathy Robbins

[Bo Peep]

This is an interesting topic to me, as I have Bailey- the aggressor and Usher- the wimp. They have been arguing since I brought her home. It's as quick as an eye blink. You really have to be on your toes to see this coming. They are both very good dogs, but Bailey has "issues". I've never tried a gentle leader. I wonder if it works well? It just looks so wrong.

Anyway, I have broken up many fights by tail grabbing and rolling Bailey. It didn't work. She seems to think that Ushers odd behaviors like sprinkler biting are odd and she's in charge. That's why I took it into my own hands and made her believe "I" was the boss. Well, that didn't work, she still "mother's him" and I would love to hear more comments on this issue. I never had fights like this in the house before. I DID have some alpha dog placement fights.

I wonder if this has anything to do with "hubby" is HE the wimp? LOL or is he the alpha?

Are they fighting for his attention?

[flrpwr52]

Thanks to all of you for your help and thoughts.

 

As far as the gentle leader goes I have taken care not to have the ring hang down. With the leader on she is a different dog. She has no eye contact with the other dogs and is very calm, she doesn't bark or play. I won't have her wear it if my hubby isn't home. It breaks my heart to see her not being herself.

But on the other hand if wearing the leader helps stop the fighting for now that's what I will do.

 

I also wanted you to know I am on guard all the time. Whenever the dogs are near my hubby I am always watching for the slightest move that may go wrong. I asked for help and suggestions and that's what you gave me. It's easy to sit at the computer and say stop it before it happens when we know that's very hard to do. As you all know it takes only a nano second for something to happen and it is almost impossible to stop before it happens when and if the dog is out of arms reach. I don't want you all to think I am not trying because I am and this is so hard to watch happen each and every time.

 

I have already put into place NILF for my hubby to practice, he can not have any contact with the dogs outside of any kind, touch, talk, eye contact, nothing. Maybe I will get more work out of him now. This is where we will start this weekend.

Since the fights generally happen about every two weeks it might be a while before we know anything. I do appreciate all your thoughts and the time you took to reply. Thanks and wish us luck.

[urge to herd]

Linda,

 

I do wish you all the luck in the world. I know how hard it is. I know that it's not an easy thing, to be so vigilant constantly. It's very much a learned skill, and I've made my share of mistakes. I do know that not letting a fight start at all is the safest way for dogs and humans when you've got a inter dog problem in the house.

 

I know how terrifying it is. Shoshone went after Sam once when Sam was still woozy from anesthesia, and all Sam could do after I pulled Shonie off was lay on the dirt with her eyes closed and pant.

 

There are still moments in my home that are near misses. This is not the peaceful, happy dogs playing around household that I envisioned, but it's the one I've got.

 

Best of luck, and please do let us know how you get on.

 

Ruth n the BC3

[flrpwr52]

Thanks Ruth. Just knowing that someone understands helps.

[afrancis]

Thanks Ruth. Just knowing that someone understands helps.

 

Linda,

Not having had more than one dog at a time, I can't comment on that or give you advice. But we are all on your side and want the best for your dogs and family. You have been thorough about describing your dilemma and have given good follow-up information -- that is what makes for good discussion and brain-storming. Good luck and keep us informed.

Ailsa