orion318 Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Hey guys...i'm new to the forums so hello everyone for starters. So yes...i'm going to have my first ever BC. I have a couple of male dogs (a mix breed that actually looks BColish that i picked up from a shelter and a 1y old black GSD). It all started off with taking the GSD to obedience training. It's a nice school, we train with clicker etc, and the instructor has been in the obedience World Championship a few times and does lots of TV work with the dogs. In short he had an unexpected litter from his BCs (they took 5 minutes together in the back of the van to seal the deal). Since i really enjoy dog training and border collies are as good as you can get in that category i've always thought i would have one sometime in the future.. but this chance came along, and i just couldn't say no. The parents are both from working lines (sire (blue merle) is elite obedience class and the bitch (black & white) is a former 2 year in a row national champion) so if the genes work right they pups should be good dogs. I've seen them and they look adorable but i'll only "get" her when she's 8 or 9 weeks old which will be middle of next month. the litter was 5 strong (2 males 3 females), out of those 3 i'll pick the one with the best character i can with help from the instructor. Oh and the females came out 2 black and white and 1 tri (with just light brown marks and quite a bit of white on the top) will try to post some photos if i can later on. So in short after the introduction...i'd welcome a few hints and tips on managing a BC from puppyhood I think i know what most of you will say but advice is always welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 First, welcome! I've found this board to be invaluable. Lots of knowledgeable people here. BC puppies. Cute. Generic info: Full of boundless energy--if you're looking for a dog to sit and watch t.v. with, pick another breed. Very intelligent. Learn quickly--positive and negative--so watch what you do around them. A firm but gentle hand works best when training, otherwise they will shut down. They get their feelings hurt easily. Find a vet who's familiar with BCs and their particular health issues, ie., sensitivity to anesthetic, drugs, etc. Not all BCs will have reactions, but many do. Mine, for instance. Expose them to all sorts of people, things, situations early on to prevent problems down the road. Get some good books, read this board often and be aware that you have a very special breed who will hopefully give you many years of loyal companionship and love. One word of caution, and there may be others who will disagree with me here, but avoid the all white puppy. They tend to have hearing problems. Good luck and enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion318 Posted June 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Thanks for the input. On the white puppy. This is the couple's second litter the other one was planned and they had a white one which has hearing problems (autistic even). The sire is a very white blue merle but has had no problems (he's 12y old now) In this litter one of the male puppies is white, very similar to his dad, they almost immediately left him at the vet to be put down (they though he would be like his brother that is still alive but can't live a proper life...imagine a autistic BC if you can) but ended up deciding to give him a chance and although the mother behaved a bit strange with him (carried him around more etc) it appears he hears fine. (they're about 4 weeks at the moment so it's sometimes still a bit hard to tell). The female i was talking about isn't all white...she just has a larger white collar that extends back.. But i haven't picked one yet i have to wait a little more so they assume their personalities better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 In this litter one of the male puppies is white, very similar to his dad, they almost immediately left him at the vet to be put down (they though he would be like his brother that is still alive but can't live a proper life...imagine a autistic BC if you can) but ended up deciding to give him a chance and although the mother behaved a bit strange with him I know a farm where the resident bitch (mostly white with a black head) has had multiple "accidental" litters - mostly classically marked B/W. However, often there have been one or two white ones that are found dead away from the rest. It's not certain whether the bitch kills them (deliberately or by abandoning them) or they die naturally and she moves them. I know a lot of the b/w pups and apart from one with OCD of the shoulders (now fixed) they have all been perfectly healthy. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion318 Posted June 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 Was with the pups today...at around 5 weeks they're starting to jump around a lot...so cute to watch..such a big difference from last week The white male hears so he just looks like his dad.. More input fellows come on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cool Dave Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 I love the predominantly white bc's! My first experience with bc's was my ex'wifes all white with the exception of orangish tan colored ears and spot on her side. (she says she was but now I don't think she was purebred). I may be wrong, but I faintly recall reading somewhere that the absence of pigment (hair color) on the ears suggested higher probability the dog could have or end up having hearing problems. I believe the article also mentioned that as long as the dog had colored hair on its ears that the probability of hearing problems wasn't any (or much) different than 'regular' dog. Same issues pertain to eye area where the odds for blindness increase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 Welcome! As for input, you can use the "search" function at the top of the page to look for topics that concern you. You also might want to ask specific questions rather than the shotgun approach of asking for advice in general. It is much easier to reply to a question or request that is not so general. Have you thought to talk to your instructor, the owner of the pups? I would think he would not consider selling you a pup without talking over what you can expect and how to approach your pup's basic training (which will start as soon as you get him). I would sum my advice up as socialize, socialize, socialize! Also, take him to puppy class (great for socialization, also) and just about everywhere else that you can safely take him (make sure he's had at least the first of his shots, and keep him off the floor/ground until he's a bit older and had his second shots). Remember you are training all the time, whether you are thinking of it as training or not, so be fair, consistent, and understandable - and you will have a wonderful companion that has manners and a pleasant outlook on life. Best wishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsnrs Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 We crate trained our Aussie so that is my best advice. Narita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion318 Posted June 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Hey Sue, yeah i know my question was a bit shotgun...but to be honest atm i don't have particular questions. Yeah i've talked to the trainer and pretty much know what to do..just looking for more opinions etc. By the time i get her she'll have gone through the first shots so i'll try to provide as much safe socialization as i can. My biggest concern at the moment is how my dogs will welcome her, also will have to provide safer play for a couple of months until she can take the rougher play from my 1year old GSD. My dogs are outside dogs, we have a big yard with lots of sheltered areas so they're always outside (also the inside has too much breakable stuff), but intend on providing at least in the night a "safe" place to sleep away from the rumbling friends and also of the pool until she's old enough. Cheers on the advice...i'll make a post with photos when i get her Keep it coming if you Will also get her a crate since i haven't got one atm, (my dog rides in the back of the car), and am going to train her. Also introduce her straight into clicker training etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 If you don't have particular questions, how can you expect answers? Most folks on this board have inside dogs and don't encourage "outside only" dog ownership, so you might get opinions from people that don't agree with your approach - especially for a Border Collie. An intelligent, active dog like a Border Collie requires training, interaction, and supervision and, without sufficient input from the owner (and you do sound very involved with your current dog), is a disaster waiting to happen. Border Collies can become obsessive (working/staring at your other dog or anything else that might move - like lights, cats, birds, leaves, airplanes, shadows, cars, passersby, etc.); world-class diggers; fence-climbers; and the list goes on and on. So, make sure you interact with your dog in terms of mental and physical training/exercise. Don't allow dogs to interact with each other without you being aware of their behaviors and, if needed, separate them (crates are wonderful, used appropriately). The old saying goes something like, "Give your Border Collie something to do or he/she will come up with something to occupy him/herself, and you won't like it." Best wishes! It sounds like you are eager to learn and my suggestion would be to review recent topics or use the search feature for topics that interest you, and then ask questions when situations arise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedismom Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Since i really enjoy dog training and border collies are as good as you can get in that category You seem to be very excited about getting your first BC. That's good you'll need it. I'm posting a thread regarding what it's like to train a border collie vs. a non BC. It may be different than your GSD and can be more difficult. Though I know most people seem to think the opposite. I second what Sue said in an earlier post. Border collies want to be with their humans and want something to do. If left outside all day in a large yard....hmmm...they will redesign it. If your dog absolutely has to stay outside, I'd strongly consider putting in a dog run. Good Luck and post pictures! http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...amp;hl=training Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sluj Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Hey Sue, yeah i know my question was a bit shotgun...but to be honest atm i don't have particular questions. Here are a bunch of other people's questions, with answers: http://www.bcrescue.org/faq.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion318 Posted June 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Thanks for your input guys...i understand your concern with the "outside dog" issue...i have it myself but unfortunately my house isn't dog friendly inside (floors would be scratched, stuff broken, family would go crazy etc). Although i must point out that "outside dog" in this house doesn't mean "dog will be alone in the yard with the others all day". We spend a lot of our time outside, and spend quite a bit of time with the dogs. For example even when having meals we usualy leave the kitchen door open and the dogs lay "outside with us". Even while i'm at work there's usualy someone in the house they can hang out with, so i think she'll do ok, i feel it's a question of adaptation...dogs IMO need to work out their routines and the owners routines and they'll be happy. I do expect some "mistakes" in the garden since if not on her own she'll copy my GSD that does like the occasional dig or cheewing of sprinklers, but even then the punishment acted out isn't too severe, just a verbal telling off usually does the trick with my GSD makes him lay down hears back and apologetic eyes (only to do it again latter some day ...although recent digging as been on mouse catching duty so he's excused ) Oh and what's a dog run Jedismum? Also i do expect training to be a little different from what my GSD demanded. But i'll see how i get along...to start off i'll train a lot of contact and recall. My dogs are quite balanced at the moment and another of the things i dread is having to re-teach basics like "don't go out the gate after the car". My main gate leads to a semi-busy road and the two silly males were at one point teaming up in running off down the road. It's now under control since they don't do it any longer (though it unfortunately only after GSD getting hit by a car outside the door and escaped the site with superficial wounds and the though that it's a bad idea to run off). Hope the BC will pick up quickly that she can't go out after the master. going over all that instruction again:( I promise photos when i can, and i do what to thank you folks again for the tips Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanillalove Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 While I don't agree with the outside dog lifestyle, I'll try to shed some light on how this may affect your Border Collie and how you'll have to manage it. The main thing with this breed is that they want to be part of your family, they want to interact with their person as much as they can and participate in mostly everything you do, that includes coming for the drive to the store and going to get your mail. They *need* this because since their beginning they have been bred to do a job. The qualities that were bred into BC's back then still remain in this breed, which is why they strive to be the most vital part and help in your life, they want to feel like you couldn't get the mail alone. As Sue already mentioned, they can become obsessive about certain things if this need to work isn't fulfilled. You may find your back yard re-landscaped in the matter of minutes and they may herd your other dogs. I don't want to keep this post a downer, haha. You'll need to make sure you're up for the physical and most importantly, the mental stimulation that is required of this breed. You do sound like you are involved with your GSD, and you say you like to train so I'm sure you'll be able to fit those requirements. Remember, that this breed won't exercise itself in the backyard though. You don't sound like you're the average owner of an "outside dog", you seem more involved and committed, but it just needs to be known that Border Collies aren't an average dog either. As long as you're confident that you can fit this breed's needs, then we'll be more than happy to answer all of your questions! Good luck with the new pup and you'll quickly realize how it feels to have to re-train all those basics, haha! Good luck again, and have fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cool Dave Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Only advice I can offer is somerthing related to what I've been dealing with as of late. Obviously the BC is extremely intelligent, intelligent enough to learn what he/she can get away with. I never even realized it was happening. Slowly over the years, and I thought nothing of it, my bc would not always obey on first command (as in sit, stay, down, or come). Eventually it became quite often that I'd have to repeat the command, and Sassy had even taken it (and I let her) to THREE times! She's a sly devil, SORT OF obeying (moving slowly) and at the same time looking innocently over at me as if (she was) to see my reaction to what she was doing. In the last month or so I've stopped letting her get away with it but sometimes she still hestitates, prompting me to go over to correct her, but the minute she see's me make a move, she obeys. I've also been having trouble myself refraining from saying "I said" (the minute I ever said that she would also obey) So she learned she could push me to 3 times, and she often tried. My advice, don't let the dog do it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion318 Posted June 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Thanks for the extra advice guys and gals The main thing with this breed is that they want to be part of your family, they want to interact with their person as much as they can and participate in mostly everything you do, that includes coming for the drive to the store and going to get your mail. I don't want to keep this post a downer, haha. You'll need to make sure you're up for the physical and most importantly, the mental stimulation that is required of this breed. As long as you're confident that you can fit this breed's needs, then we'll be more than happy to answer all of your questions! Good luck with the new pup and you'll quickly realize how it feels to have to re-train all those basics, haha! Good luck again, and have fun. So what you are saying is it that they are a pain in the butt Yeah i think i know what i'm in for...hope i'll survive Still don't know what a dog run is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sluj Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Still don't know what a dog run is It's like a large kennel, often chain link, with room for a short run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeA Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Hey border collies are the best dogs in my opinion, I am in love with this breed. very important thing you need to know, these dogs need a lot of excercise, and mental stimulation, if they get their excercise and mental stimulation, they are very happy, if not they will drive you crazy, because they will find something else to keep themselves busy. They are great family dogs, very easy to train them, very smart and alert, just be very consistent when you train them, and don't be harsh at all because they are very sensitive. my puppy is 4 months old now, and she is amazing, i house trained her in a week, she knows a lot of tricks, and she is very obedient, make sure you crate train you bc, it will help you a lot with the house training, and it will keep them out of trouble when you cant watch them. take care and good luck Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Thanks for your input guys...i understand your concern with the "outside dog" issue...i have it myself but unfortunately my house isn't dog friendly inside (floors would be scratched, stuff broken, family would go crazy etc). Hmmm..your house isn't "dog friendly inside?" Yes, floors get scratched and a few things might get broken, but with training, those issues can and should eventually subside. If the dogs are outside all the time, they never get the chance to learn how to behave in the home. And there's no reason the family should go crazy, if the dogs are properly socialized. Inconvenient sometimes? Yes. But I believe it's so much better for a dog, especially a BC, to actually be living with it's family. Just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiloh714 Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 About crate training, how do you do that? I know you get her used to it first, but then do you just keep her in there for maybe a few hours at a time and then let her outside? This would be my first time crate training and i would kinda like to do it right. just a quick answer, I don't want to ruin the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK dog doc Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 General comment on coloration: There's a diff between white (double merle) pups from a merle/merle breeding and white-factored dogs (who may be predominantly white; have a lot of white markings with particular traits, but a lot of "dark" ones too; or may be predominantly the "dark" color, but with white marks over the hips and/or back, +/- white visible on the outside of the back leg above the stifle). A dog who is just white-factored has no greater health concerns than any other BC (at least, none due to the white-factoring.) For an example, look for Julie Poudrier's Pip, who is a working stockdog (Julie has posted many pics of him on the Boards). I can't say if there are times when he is APPARENTLY deaf (as in, ignoring cues) but there's nothing actually wrong with his hearing. My Finn is white-factored, but at a glance most people wouldn't notice it, as he's mainly black and only has the white-above-stifle marking. He sometimes (rarely) has selective hearing, but there's no organic defect. Merle/merle crosses would be expected (based on genetic odds) to produce some double-merle pups, which is a different story than a white-factored pup. General comment on BCs: BCs are dogs who want to do something WITH YOU. A lot of dogs want to do stuff, sure, but for a BC the "with you" part is important. Someone here (Melanie?) once said that BCs are a good fit for people whose lifestyles are dog-centered at the core; maybe not so good a fit for people who just want to do "some" dog activities, which do not fall in the core of their lifestyle. Only you know which description fits you best. Personally, FWIW, I would never leave my BCs outside all day unattended (even in my fenced yard, and even weather permitting) because I doubt I'd come home and find either them or my yard in the condition I left them... if I found them at all. A bored BC is, often enough, a destructive BC, and I'd either find them deconstructing my deck, digging a hole through the wall to get inside, barking enough to PO my neighbors (and normally they aren't barky, but if they want in, they can be - and God forbid a moose or a fox or a bear or a stray dog should wander through my yard, at which time all hell breaks loose)... or else I'd find that they outsmarted my gate latch and were nowhere to be found. There is also, of course, the possibilty that they'd be tearing down parts of the house and building a go-cart in the back yard (Oh, you're home! Can you get us a power drill? We're having trouble using the screwdriver. No opposable thumbs, you know. .... Why are you mad at us? We're using recyled materials from the house! Isn't recycling GOOD...?) Part of the problem (IMO) with leaving BCs unattended in the yard with other dogs is that they are, as a group, very bossy. It's their job, after all: boss around other animals (preferrably with human involvement, since the LAST thing you want is a BC that is working for itself. They should be working FOR YOU, not freelancing). Your other dogs may be fine with the bossy-pants behavior - or they may not. It might be a year or two down the road before you see that happening (and depending on the individual dog's drive, you may not see it at all), but all 2.5 of my PB BCs have that bossy thing going, and if I were to leave them unattended too long with the non-BCs I'm fairly certain that eventually there would be a fight. It's not that they don't know they're not supposed to try to control the other dogs. It's that if they have nothing else to do, their genetics may irresistably surface. All of this is JMO and IME, of course, and I'm not trying to discourage you from getting a BC - you might in fact be an outstanding home for one. Just trying to give you the skinny (from my perspective, such as it is) before you commit yourself. Best of luck, whichever way you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Part of the problem (IMO) with leaving BCs unattended in the yard with other dogs is that they are, as a group, very bossy. It's their job, after all: boss around other animals (preferrably with human involvement, since the LAST thing you want is a BC that is working for itself. They should be working FOR YOU, not freelancing). Your other dogs may be fine with the bossy-pants behavior - or they may not. That is such a good point! I was just explaining to a friend yesterday why I do not leave Quinn loose with my other dogs when I leave. Even if he and the Lhasa weren't such a poor fit, there is an "edge" to him that very few people ever notice. And it is exactly that genetic desire to "boss around other animals" that I'm responding to. Quinn is not motion reactive. He doesn't do much that looks like herding other than when he is with sheep, but he does things with my dogs like decide that only he can go bark at the little poodles that live behind us. That kind of control stuff. My friend, who knows Quinn quite well, was surprised my precautions. His controlling behavior is often very sneaky. I would also be concerned about a BC being a backyard dog in general. There is so much they can get into and so many bad habits to pick up when unsupervised. I know they can become quite the escape artists for one thing. I guess if you spend a lot of time outside and are actively involved with your dog every day, it would be ok. Just not something I'm used to, personally. I like that comment about BC's needing owners whose lifestyles are dog centric. I really think that sums it up best. These dogs don't need endless exercise and stimulation, but they do need serious commitment and to be a significant part of your life. They are not dogs for the casual owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion318 Posted July 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Thanks for the recent input guys....good work on making me nervous lol The new girl should be coming over in the next few days...so fingers crossed everything goes well. (i shall post pictures when i get her, along with the rest of the dog family). As i said before there's usually people outside during most of the day, she'll just spend the nights alone with the rest of the dogs and occasionally when we go out (going to have to go through the no escaping out the door issue again...if 2 were hard to catch 3 is a mess ) But still i'll try not to get discouraged by all the straight talk and hope i'm not getting myself into something i can't handle. I am going to crate train and i've been working on the idea that i can bring the crate into a bathroom next to the room i have my pc in so when i'm here in the evenings my dog is "with" me...First days/weeks she'll be sleeping in a bigger crate, the kennel, where she can stay safe from night hazards (like unattended rough play from my GSD, or falling into the pool in the night). Although i love dogs due to being a Doctor i can't have a dog centric lifestyle, although i do spend a lot of time with them. Although i shall keep her quite busy since the plan is to get her into obedience so she can follow the steps of her mum and older sister. Cheers for all the imput guys...keep it coming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllieMackie Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Coming from someone who will also be getting their first BC in the next little while (late winter, most likely): You're going to have to be willing to change it up for this dog. It sounds like you're planning some things already that are different from your current dogs, and that's good. I think you'll be surprised at how different a BC can be from other breeds. As others have said, they will LIVE to serve you. It's how they are. BCs bond with the person who teaches and feeds them, and await your every command. If you don't give them commands, they'll break stuff for something to do. It's what they -do-. It took me a long time to decide whether a BC was right for me. The reason I decided on a BC in the end, is that I'll be devoting most of my free time to this dog - I plan to take it travelling with me every chance I can, involve it in several dog sports (and hopefully some herding) and on off-days, give it looooong walks, fetch time in the park, and otherwise train and sttend to them. BCs are a full-time job, moreso than most dog breeds, and you need to be aware of that before ever making a decision to bring one into your home! Keep listening to the advice of folks on these boards - they know what they're talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion318 Posted July 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2008 ah yes i haven't talked about herding...it's something that's hard to do where i live cause there simply isn't where. BUT....the trainer has a friend he knows that herds and has sheep and even participates in the international herding trials so it's something i'm looking forward to doing with my BC when she's old enough. I went once to watch the dog work on the sheep and it was pretty cool, and the dogs absolutely love it. Keep listening to the advice of folks on these boards - they know what they're talking about. Yeah that's why i'm posting here, i lurked a bit and realised this was quite a good board Hope to have fresh news (and pics ) soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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