Odin is herding our cat!

[juliepoudrier]

Rachel,

It's really up to what you are comfortable with. I don't mind the occasional chase if it was clearly initiated by the cat(s), but I don't encourage it either. I kind of go by the rule of thumb that if it's not something I would want them to do when I'm not looking, then they don't really need to do it when I'm around either. The reason for that is that border collies can and will use their teeth to control movement (I had to break one adult dog who came to live here of walking along beside the cats--trying to "herd" them--and snapping just a fraction of an inch from the cat's legs) and since they are generally larger than a cat, if the dog decides to insist that the cat do what the dog wants, the cat is more likely to be on the losing end. While I think dogs can learn to situationalize things (i.e., it's okay to do this in this situation, but not in this other situation), I tend to err on the side of caution where a smaller animal is involved and could get hurt (that's not to say that a cat can't damage a dog--it can--but the dog does have the advantage of size and a greater willingness to bite). But everyone has their own level of tolerance for that sort of thing.

 

J.

[Lenajo]

I've got a cat that initiates with the dogs too, particularily the puppies. He's a big bobtailed tom who likes to wrestle, and seems to have a very determined agenda about training the pups to have soft mouths, and "obey" the kitty. He is particularily tough who gets to look at his litter box. He's been known to pin a pup for crossing the line on that one.

 

My rule is the same is as if they were two human kids - 1 smaller than the other. It doesn't matter who starts it, when I say "over" it's over. If its a game that can only end with someone crying, we don't play it. If the game would escalate to dangerous without me there, we don't play that even when I'm around. It goes both ways - I've had to punish both pup and cat a few times to make my point

 

By the time everyone is adult the goal is that everybody feels safe and relaxed in the same room.

 

This is much, much harder with dogs who are already adults, or have been encouraged/allowed to use the cat as a toy. Definately better to train them young!

[Dixie_Girl]

Not with cats, but basicaly the same. When Holly came, she almost immediately picked Missy out as the most submisive, and harrassed her constantly. I was constantly on to Holly about that. Then Missy got adopted, so Holly started doing that to Lucy. Well, Miss Lucy is NOT submissive, and there were a few tense moments, but within a few weeks, Miss Lucy got her forever home too. So, then Holly started on my girl, Cheyenne. Cheyenne is 11 and until 3 yrs. ago, was an only dog. She is constantly being stared at, "chest bumped", and now Holly has started this little nipping at Cheyennes ears or the hair on her back. Holly gets one correction then if she doesn't stop, is penned up. Holly has also done this once or twice to Jackson. She knows which she can get by with doing this. She never does it to the JD, Skip! And when Lucy would "explain" how she didn't like the "attention", Holly high-tailed it away from her. Things like this can and do escalate. The problem is, you never know when the day comes that the chasee becomes a target for serious damage.

[powerfulgazelle]

"And these kinds of overreactions are the main reason that many of the veterans here don't even bother posting in the general section anymore."

 

Really?

 

I had not noticed any shortage of postings or advice here on the "general" forum.

 

From a "seek first to understand, then seek to be understood" standpoint, I wonder if anyone who responded to the OP can take away any sense that perhaps she was not so much objecting to the information given as the manner.

 

If one posts to any forum as a "veteran", I wonder if that effort has to do with desire to help and encourage others or a desire to simply exhibit knowledge or expertise. I guess I'd evaluate the content of responses after asking what the purpose of the making the response is (for the responder).

 

I guess when I read the quote above, I imagine (don't know for sure, but imagine) perhaps the desire to help or encourage someone else is not there.

 

For me, I have found in 20-odd years in my profession, that communicating to someone that giving them my help is a "bother" often means they are not going to "receive" my message anymore, no matter how "right" the advice is. Sometimes, in my work, meeting someone "where they are" means answering their concerns without commentary on all the other parts of the situation that I may not agree with or that I may know for a fact are just completely screwed up. ("You're working on losing weight and have started walking to the mailbox and back? Great!", even when they are still smoking a pack a day.)

[juliepoudrier]

"And these kinds of overreactions are the main reason that many of the veterans here don't even bother posting in the general section anymore."

 

Really?

 

I had not noticed any shortage of postings or advice here on the "general" forum.

 

Well, I know I should just ignore this, but nowhere did I say there was a shortage of posts or replies in this forum. What I said was that a lot of long-time members no longer post here. There's a big difference. Think what you will.

 

This is such a typical cycle for these kinds of threads. First the OP gets responses that the OP doesn't like for whatever reason. Then the OP attacks those who were just trying to help--help not just the OP but perhaps anyone else who might be reading. Then when the folks who posted and were subsequently attacked by the OP defend themselves, someone *always* steps in to tell us that we are all wrong, our tone was wrong, we didn't look at it from the OP's POV, and so on. It's that same old "circle of life" in forum land....

 

J.

[powerfulgazelle]

Well, I know I should just ignore this, but nowhere did I say there was a shortage of posts or replies in this forum. What I said was that a lot of long-time members no longer post here. There's a big difference. Think what you will.

 

This is such a typical cycle for these kinds of threads. First the OP gets responses that the OP doesn't like for whatever reason. Then the OP attacks those who were just trying to help--help not just the OP but perhaps anyone else who might be reading. Then when the folks who posted and were subsequently attacked by the OP defend themselves, someone *always* steps in to tell us that we are all wrong, our tone was wrong, we didn't look at it from the OP's POV, and so on. It's that same old "circle of life" in forum land....

 

J.

 

Oh, no---sorry, I wasn't clear! I have not noticed any shortage of "veteran" posters/posts here on the general forum. Perhaps you are very right that there is a sizable population of veteran, longtime posters whom I have not had the opportunity to meet because they have run off in frustration. That would be a loss.

 

And for clarity, I did not say anyone's tone was "wrong", at least, I can't find that in what I typed. I simply reflected that I am not sure the OP got what she was looking for....so just wondering if the motivation to post in reponse was to meet the OP's need or the responder's need. A curious, out-loud wondering...that's all. My motivation in wondering aloud is simple: I like to be able to ask for input and advice from others when needed. I prefer to have venues to do that where there is good communication. I think that part of good communication is often "meeting" folks where they are. I am not sure the OP felt "met" in that way. And, I am one of those incurable Pollyannas who actually believes that we all have the ability to have things change because of what we do, not in spite of what we do. So, perhaps my circle of life looks different.

[Journey]

"And these kinds of overreactions are the main reason that many of the veterans here don't even bother posting in the general section anymore."

 

Really?

 

I had not noticed any shortage of postings or advice here on the "general" forum.

 

Julie already addressed this but I have been on this forum for years and yes, there is a shortage of "veteran" posters.

 

Reminds me of this thread - http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...amp;hl=neurotic

 

If you go back a few years you will see many veterans are no longer posting or very minimal compared to years previous. Look through the archives and old posts. As said this thread is no different 'cept the cats are "exotic"?

 

Karen

[powerfulgazelle]

Julie already addressed this but I have been on this forum for years and yes, there is a shortage of "veteran" posters.

 

Reminds me of this thread - http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...amp;hl=neurotic

 

If you go back a few years you will see many veterans are no longer posting or very minimal compared to years previous. Look through the archives and old posts. As said this thread is no different 'cept the cats are "exotic"?

 

Karen

 

I think we cross-posted...see my post above too.

 

So---I wonder: What is the "solution" to getting more "veterans" here to post? Is it something that needs "solved", or are things "okay" with the numbers of newer members/veterans/questions answered and asked in an open/nonlocked basic/general forum?

 

Thoughts?

[Quill]

It is a shame that this post got away like it did.

 

It is possible that you can train Odin to both NOT herd Lobo and ALSO help with nightly meds. By cutting eye and pacing out of the equation, you can play a "Where's Lobo" game with Odin, where he is allowed to find the cat, but then does not touch or watch the cat but instead lays down and watches you for further directions as the proper response to finding him. If Lobo really is distracted by/drawn to Odin, this will serve a similar purpose: the cat will check Odin out, and you can calmly scoop him up for meds.

 

I also suggest clicker training with your cats. Even if they just know the clicker means treats, getting them to come running when they hear the clicker can be a lifesaver. For a medication routines with your cat, work up to this sequence: a treat recall noise that brings him running, dole out treats, run your hands over his entire body including checking paws, ears, eyes, and mouth, medicate quickly and painlessly as part of the process, then leave him with a great treat and walk away. Also desensitize him to having his mouth opened as part of your usual petting. If it's no big deal then, it's hardly a big deal when there's meds involved.

 

I'm sure you've noticed the ease with which your cat takes pills is all about his mindset. We can casually pop a pill to any of our cats in less than five seconds as part of a routine stroking as we're walking by where they lay. If a cat is freaked, it can take forever.

 

Good luck.

[nancy]

Oh well. I tried to stay out. But I can't let this pass.

 

I simply reflected that I am not sure the OP got what she was looking for....so just wondering if the motivation to post in reponse was to meet the OP's need or the responder's need.

 

The OP was not looking for anything or needing anything other than kudos. The OP was bragging on her dog. All that was expected or "needed" was applause.

 

And the OP got the necessary correction.

 

Sometimes I think too many people made it through school on "non-judgmental grading". Correction of any kind at any time is considered an unfair attack. You know, sometimes we can each be wrong. Even very wrong when we think we are so smart. We expect our dogs to accept and incorporate corrections. Guess we ought to do so, too.

[powerfulgazelle]

Oh well. I tried to stay out. But I can't let this pass.

The OP was not looking for anything or needing anything other than kudos. The OP was bragging on her dog. All that was expected or "needed" was applause.

 

And the OP got the necessary correction.

 

Sometimes I think too many people made it through school on "non-judgmental grading". Correction of any kind at any time is considered an unfair attack. You know, sometimes we can each be wrong. Even very wrong when we think we are so smart. We expect our dogs to accept and incorporate corrections. Guess we ought to do so, too.

 

 

So....if the OP was looking for kudos, the way you experienced her post, it is good/appropriate/the "right" role of those who respond to "correct" another adult? Rather than, say, explain that it hasn't been your experience that this behavior turns out well and ask if she was looking for help/advice to change the dog/cat interaction?

 

Eep. I am not certain if I am understanding you correctly or not. I guess I would experience trying to give something (advice) to someone whom I felt had communicated she was not seeking that thing, but seeking something else instead (bragging opportunity), as, perhaps, the wrong audience to give advice to...if you wanted her to "get" something out of it. OTOH, maybe I'd go ahead if I was doing it for what I needed/wanted.

 

But, my original question, I guess: What were the responders looking for? Any possibility that they also rec'd a form of valid feedback for their delivery style? Any possibility that a change in communication style might yield different, but equally good/better results?

[juliepoudrier]

Here's what I said to the OP:

First, if you are a veteran of forums then you surely know that a majority of people on such sites are lurkers--they read the information posted but rarely, if ever, post themselves. When I reply to threads, I try to keep that in mind. I'm not just replying to a particular person (unless I actually quote them) but just assume that my responses will be read by others who might face similar situations in their lives.

 

Maybe I should have added that I think others reading the information posted might actually find it useful, but I think that was implied. And I think it's a perfectly valid reason for responding to posts such as these. If we were on a skateboarder's forum and someone came along and said "I've learned to jump my skateboard over a moving car" should we just ignore the post because the poster is obviously proud of the achievement or should we attempt to warn the poster of the potential dire consequences of the achievement?

 

FWIW, I don't think of the responses in question as corrections. I think of them as people posting their own thoughts about a situation a poster has presented. It doesn't matter if the poster intended the "story" to be a good one or a bad one. We ought to be able to learn from one another, and we do that by sharing our ideas and beliefs--not by shrinking back for fear of offending someone's sensibilities. The fact is that not one person said to the OP anything like "You're stupid. You're cruel to your cat." That's all how the OP *chose* to interpret the comments. No one was even rude to the OP. And that's why I don't really understand the need for this renewed discussion (which also happens at the end of any heated thread).

 

These are public forums. Everyone is free to post their opinions, within reason (no slander, etc.). I don't see how an adult can come to a place like this one (especially an adult who claims to be forum savvy) and not expect that some people are going to have differing opinions.

 

This same poster, on an earlier thread, said that in the course of her job she has to open gates and that occasionally cattle escape and she hoped Odin would be able to help round them back up for her. Was it innapropriate of me to respond that she ought not to try that with an untrained dog? It's a true statement. She could have taken as much offense at that as she did at several of us saying we didn't think it was appropriate for her dog to "herd" her cat, but she didn't. Perhaps it's because I was only one person who made that comment, as opposed to many people on this thread who tried to say that "herding" the cat wasn't necessarily a good idea.

 

As I see it, forums are meant to be for the exchange of ideas. Folks may or may not agree with each others' ideas, but at least the ideas are out there for everyone to read and decide for themselves. If we become a society (and here by society I mean this forum of a group of individuals with a common interest and not society at large) where we can't say what we believe is true for fear of upsetting an idividual, then the whole idea behind forum becomes rather useless, doesn't it?

 

I don't understand why people can't take a mindset when they come to places like this of simply gleaning *what they want* from it and ignoring the rest. I certainly don't agree with or like everything that everyone else posts here, but I try not to take things personally because, in general, I don't think they're meant that way.

 

Honestly, I'm really not sure what you're even trying to gain with this discussion. Are you really saying that we need to try to perceive what a poster *really means* instead of taking words at face value and then respond to what we think we're perceiving vs. those actual words? That surely would be a worse minefield then the one we've already stepped in.

 

I'm done with this thread. I really don't think any more good can come out of it.

 

J.

[Alaska]

But, my original question, I guess: What were the responders looking for? Any possibility that they also rec'd a form of valid feedback for their delivery style? Any possibility that a change in communication style might yield different, but equally good/better results?

Leave it.

 

If you want to know where the veterans on this board hang out, just look down at the bottom of the main page at who's posting in the private forums. That, I suspect, is where most of them are.

 

On the relatively rare occasions when experienced BC folks answer questions in the general discussion section, I believe most of them are just altruistically trying to pass on advice they've learned through experience. The same questions get asked a LOT, so answering them over and over in various permutations isn't really very rewarding and maybe they don't put a lot of effort into carefully wording their answers so as to be non-offensive, but they're answering to be helpful nonetheless. I wouldn't put myself in the "experienced BC folks" category, but when I do provide advice is it in appreciation of those who've previously done the same for me, and perhaps to save them from having to repeat said advice yet another time (and, let's be honest, because I am avoiding the work I should be doing right now).

 

If one were to take the extra time to make sure one's reply could not possibly be misinterpreted by an OP about whom one knows little or nothing, often including, crucially, whether the person is even a mature adult, that can be a lot of time. Heck, I even got into it with Julie P a little while ago, completely by accident, and I feel like I've read about a million of her posts by now and should have been able to avoid that without even trying. Flame wars are one thing, but when someone on an internet discussion board with relevant experience is just saying "there is a different way of looking at your BC-related issue that I think you should consider", it's really to everyone's benefit to focus on the content of the message and ignore whatever you think you might have read in the tone.

[Carson Crazies]

I can honestly say that when I came here I was new to border collies, and somewhat new to dog ownership as well. I was pretty excited about the whole "herding" aspect of border collies - even though I had very little experience and no true working knowlege to fall back on. I recall making a few posts and blunders that make my face red now to remember - and thankfully the members here were patient and forgiving, albeit quite straight up with me. I was one of the people who had the choice to make - whether to stay and learn (along with a hefty dose of much needed humility) or walk away. I chose to stay.

 

I don't suppose I'd be considered one of the 'veterans' but I've been here a while, and have over the last few years accumulated some experience with border collies. But I will admit I do post less than I used to, but that also goes in cycles.

 

To the OP I would say that I'm truly glad that things are working out better in your household than you had been warned! I understand how daunting it can be taking on a border collie puppy, particularly when you're integrating it into a household with established animal members already there - and it sounds like you guys are experimenting with what works for you.

 

I personally have no cats - but I DO have the Small Dog, and friends with cats that we visit frequently. What I can tell you is that I (personally) have a no working cats or small dogs policy for my dogs. It's all fun and games until someone gets an eye poked out. That's what my Mom used to say, anyway. You have to do what you're most comfortable with in your household, but I would caution allowing a dog to work the cat in any way.

 

I have a dog that WOULD work the Small Dog were he given the chance - but because the Small Dog is old, and doesn't need that kind of hassle (none of my animals do) I nipped it in the bud. When Nick was small (yeah ok smarties, when he was YOUNG) - I'd say about 10/11 weeks old - he'd get the Small Dog on the fence line. He'd flank, turn Zippy the other direction. He'd move him along a little ways (5-10 feet), then flank the other way, rinse and repeat. Poooooor Small Dog.

 

Could have been useful, right? Shoot, Zippy doesn't hear any more, so what if I sent Nick out to bring him in?

 

Yeah, well, Nick outweighs Zippy by 35-40 lbs, and when it's all said and done may outweigh him by 45 lbs. It wouldn't take much for the Small Dog to get hurt. So when I think of it in terms of what will I have on my hands when the puppy is grown, it's a no-go, for obvious reasons.

 

So that's my big old convoluted way of saying that this is my rule, and that each of us have to find what our rule is going to be. I think it would be remiss, though, to simply pat someone on the back when I can see a situation here that may be cute at the moment but has the earmarks for potential pain for not only the cat and dog, but the human as well in the future. For that matter, if the folks here didn't care about everyone involved they would just say "how cute" and move on.

 

Anyway, I digress. The thing to keep in mind when deciding what works IMO is keeping the eye focused on what the situation is going to be when the dog is big, when the cat is old, when the dog is out of sight, when the cat gets enough, when the dog decides to grip, when the cat decides to scratch, when the human is at work, when when when... You know, all of those variables that may be out of the human's control.

[powerfulgazelle]

FWIW, I don't think of the responses in question as corrections.

 

I did not think so at all---I think that was Nancy's post?

 

These are public forums. Everyone is free to post their opinions, within reason (no slander, etc.). I don't see how an adult can come to a place like this one (especially an adult who claims to be forum savvy) and not expect that some people are going to have differing opinions.

 

Again, I agree completely. Just wondering if some delivery styles of "Hey---it might not be a good idea to jump skateboards over moving cars" may be better rec'd than others! And, since it seems to be a validated statement that "veteran" posters have left this forum for others...maybe it is not unreasonable to ask if there is a different way of responding to questions/concerns/requests for advice/out and out brags that seem misplaced. As I said, to have folks not participate because of some upset or frustration with being "bothered" seems to be a loss for many involved.

 

As I see it, forums are meant to be for the exchange of ideas. Folks may or may not agree with each others' ideas, but at least the ideas are out there for everyone to read and decide for themselves. If we become a society where we can't say what we believe is true for fear of upsetting an idividual, then the whole idea behind forum becomes rather useless, doesn't it?

 

Again, I agree completely. But, speaking from what I do know well (health, not border collies), I have never, ever gotten one single person to change a behavior/mindset, even when I KNOW I am completely and unequivocally right, or even imparted one bit of useful info that "stuck" with them, by NOT meeting them "where they are"....even if where they are is so "wrong" as to not even be remotely sensible.

 

I don't understand why people can't take a mindset when they come to places like this of simply gleaning *what they want* from it and ignoring the rest.

 

Well, heck, if we ignored everything not what we wanted--w/o responding--the forums would be much shorter! Seriously, though, humans' "rational" minds are still pretty connected to their emotional minds. It happens. Be nice if we could make allowances for how others might "take" what we say, without being afraid to say it. Usually involves a healthy dose of "I" statements, instead of "you" statements, especially w/o the benefit of the nonverbals available in person.

 

Honestly, I'm really not sure what you're even trying to gain with this discussion. Are you really saying that we need to try to perceive what a poster *really means* instead of taking words at face value and then respond to what we think we're perceiving vs. those actual words? That surely would be a worse minefield then the one we've already stepped in.

 

Nope. Just wondering...if the way messages/info are delivered currently keep presenting this "circle of life"...might there be a different package to deliver the stuff in? My interest? Having a forum where I can learn too where there is less of "this". That's what I hope to gain. There is a cool little mnemonic I've worked with. ISHFI: I see (Objective data able to be recorded, like the quote buttons here)...I hear (Not applicable here, would fall under the "I see" part)...I feel (Gut emotions, think one-word things like "happy/sad/angry/disappointed/encouraged"...NOT 'I feel THAT', which would be a disguised judgement)...I imagine (THIS is where all our judgments, opinions, wisdom, assumptions go). So, something like..."Honey, I see that it is 6:15PM. I heard you tell me this morning you'd be home by 4PM for dinner. I feel irritated and a little hurt. I imagine you did not think our dinner date was a big deal." Yep, you have certainly held the other person accountable for their tardiness, you have not failed to speak up for fear of how they would "take" it, but you have owned the parts that are yours and given the other person the opportunity to own their stuff and address it. Or, maybe, "I see you wrote that your puppy Moss is allowed to chase the cows and has never been trained on stock. I feel a little concerned. I imagine you might not know how dangerous this can be for the dog or the cows! In my experience, even BC's with excellent herding drive need training to work well. I can let you know of some good trainers in your area."

 

 

I'm done with this thread. I really don't think any more good can come out of it.

 

Eep---disagree completely with this one. I'm a firm believer in folks being able to make great improvements in their experiences of things by talking.

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

Nope. Just wondering...if the way messages/info are delivered currently keep presenting this "circle of life"...might there be a different package to deliver the stuff in? My interest? Having a forum where I can learn too where there is less of "this". That's what I hope to gain. smile.gif There is a cool little mnemonic I've worked with. ISHFI: I see (Objective data able to be recorded, like the quote buttons here)...I hear (Not applicable here, would fall under the "I see" part)...I feel (Gut emotions, think one-word things like "happy/sad/angry/disappointed/encouraged"...NOT 'I feel THAT', which would be a disguised judgement)...I imagine (THIS is where all our judgments, opinions, wisdom, assumptions go). So, something like..."Honey, I see that it is 6:15PM. I heard you tell me this morning you'd be home by 4PM for dinner. I feel irritated and a little hurt. I imagine you did not think our dinner date was a big deal." Yep, you have certainly held the other person accountable for their tardiness, you have not failed to speak up for fear of how they would "take" it, but you have owned the parts that are yours and given the other person the opportunity to own their stuff and address it. Or, maybe, "I see you wrote that your puppy Moss is allowed to chase the cows and has never been trained on stock. I feel a little concerned. I imagine you might not know how dangerous this can be for the dog or the cows! In my experience, even BC's with excellent herding drive need training to work well. I can let you know of some good trainers in your area."

 

Wow. Let me see if I can try this. I see you are thinking this forum would be a happier place if we could all be very careful in how we word things. That makes me feel very weary, and a bit doubtful that it could be accomplished, given that we are all from various different backgrounds, mindsets, educational levels, etc. I am concerned that we would no longer have any exchange of ideas as we might all be so carefully tip-toeing around our words (and inferred tones?) that we might as well just pack it in. I also feel if we all wrote our responses in this manner, we might as well all be borgs.

 

Honestly--my first reaction to the above is psychobabble (I'm not trying to be offensive, but that's really the first word that came to mind). I think part of participating in an online forum is recognizing that we are all different and have different communication styles. Each of us has his/her own "voice" when writing, and to think that our world (in this case this forum) would be better off if we were all to lose our individual voices in favor of one which attempts to be so neutral so as to offend noone (yes, it used to be one word, and I'm old-school and still like it that way), seems to me to be a desire to lose a lot of what makes communication interesting, and to me, one of the things I most like about this forum. Ok, so Lenajo seems blunt sometimes. But, if you look past that and really read what she is saying, her responses are generally quite logical and informative because she has lots of experience. Julie P. is more tactful and generally more wordy, but her posts are also very informative and helpful, again, based on experience. Sometimes I can be sarcastic. And so on, much like the real world where we have to communicate with a wide variety of people to accomplish a wide variety of tasks. Some of those people we may not like personally much, BUT we are required (for our jobs, as an example) to deal with all of them.

 

So, read through responses, take from those that which you can glean, leave the others, and move on.

 

A

[Lenajo]

Me blunt? Julie wordy? Anne sarcastic?

 

So many posts, so misunderstood...

[stockdogranch]

 

A

[juliepoudrier]

Julie P. is ... generally more wordy

 

Okay, I can't help myself. The above is true, and it's the bane of my existence as a professional writer.

 

Anyway, I agree with the rest of what you wrote, Anna. I have to choose my words with care in my "day job" since I am the voice of my company and its CEO. I try to be helpful to others in places such as this, but I don't think I need to spend hours carefully choosing my words for fear of somehow inadvertently insulting someone else. If I wanted to insult you (the general you), you'd know it. Otherwise, you can assume that I really mean no harm (i.e., take my words at face value), even if I do take a lot of words to say what I have to say. Heck, many of us have even resorted to regular use of the disclaimer "the general you" after using the word "you" so that an individual reading won't automatically assume we mean *them.* I don't think it all needs to be that complicated.

 

J.

[Lenajo]

Most of my work involves getting to the point, quickly and correctly, for the best interest of people I have to tell people what they do, and don't (sometimes a lot of that), want to hear every day, many times a day.

 

I think my posts are somewhat reflective of that - cut to the quick and as professional as possible. Not everybody likes that but many more do. The lack of flowery stuff is relieving to many of the people I deal with.

 

I think we're an interesting group, and I wish every person who was as good as communicating as Julie, Anne...etc...would take the time to be part of the redundant novice conversations when they can. We all were there once, and I know some people really helped me out. Some things need to be said, and said, and said, and said again. It does help, and those that listen make it so worth it. If we can pull one novice forward into the next step so they can start to help themselves, to *see* these marvelous dogs as we do...oh my, is it worth it. To see them help another later is even better.

[1sheepdoggal]

If we can pull one novice forward into the next step so they can start to help themselves, to *see* these marvelous dogs as we do...oh my, is it worth it. To see them help another later is even better.

 

 

I think that just about sums it up. Well said.

[nancy]

I was a technical writer and editor. Say what you mean and mean what you say. And know what the heck you're writing about. I sure wish I'd gotten to work with Julie. I do recognize accurate and appropriate information.

 

I also taught freshman composition at a UNC university. So I also recognize digressions, obfuscation, and downright BS.

 

And I can also spot self-pitying defenses. Correction is not "picking on".

 

I have been corrected here. Yeah, it's a bitch to take.

 

First reaction is like mine to any editing of anything I write. "You @#$%^&ed philistine! You'd never spot good writing if it bit you on the nose!" And then, I'd look at what I wrote and see how I could make it really work.

 

Taking valid correction is the sign of being a responsible adult. And being able to adapt corrections from other to your own situations might just be the proof of intelligence.

 

If you are not able or willing to accept responses to what you post, maybe you shouldn't post? You don't have to agree with te responses. But you do have to agree to accept that there will be responses that might not agree with you.

 

 

Gee, isn't that the idea of a forum: an open discussion?

[stockdogranch]

I also taught freshman composition

 

Ahhh...lucky you, to be able to say that in the past tense! For me, it's still the present perfect progressive!

 

A

[Jedismom]

the present perfect progressive!

 

No...No please...no ....that stuff still gives me nightmares.

 

I remember my very first topic posted on this forum. It erupted into one of the biggest flames ever and was closed down by Eileen. I was appalled.

 

When I think about what a sensitive newbie I was back then I laugh. I had never posted on a forum before. The advice by the veterans was that I should take what I wanted and leave the rest, and from then on that is what I have done. Everyone who posts is an individual and you get a sense of their personality after a while. I think it makes reading more interesting. Yes there are a couple that annoy the heck out of me but that's real life.

 

Try as I might, I read no flaming or personal attacks in the replies to the OP. I took a deep breath after my topic exploded and decided to stick around. I'm really glad I did. I hope the OP does too.

[Root Beer]