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Odin is herding our cat!


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When we got a BC, some of you may remember that we heard a lot of horror stories. One of them being, "they will herd ANYTHING! Even cats."

 

Well, it is true that Odin comes from strong working lines and we expected him to "herd." But we got kind of scared (and still sort of are - he is only a puppy) this would mean CHASE. Cars, kids, whatever - unfocused and possible unsafe harassment of 'sheepish' beings.

 

Well, he has been herding Lobo, and just like my in-laws' purebred Dobie, I am really seeing a bred behavior come out. It is fascinating! When Margie the Dobie is let out and someone has come on the property, she runs like a horse or something, fast circling around the perimeter. She barks up a storm with the most fearsome, rabid-sounding snarls and barks you've ever heard, even though she is a total wuss that will urinate over you as soon as look at you. My in-laws seem helpless to stop this, and, irrespective of my differences with them in terms of sternness in dog training, I can see as how that dog is .. just...meant...to DO that!

 

Anyway, enter Odin and my cats. They are both too engaged and crazy themselves to sit anything as interesting as a puppy out. Dr. Benway rules the roost, with an iron fist. We always knew he had to be alpha, which is the specific reason we got a puppy. You can tell whether a dog is going to be good with cats if you get it as an adult, but your own crazy-as-h*ll cat can't train the dog from a young age that way. When Benway was a foster he kept a full grown husky confined to a closet for 4 days. Odin tried to "herd" Benway a few times, and got the smackdown as a result. Other behaviors have also received said smackdown. He now treats the good Doctor with the respect he deserves, and they are beginning to be friends, as the pictures show.

 

Odin has, however, learned that Lobo is a gentler soul and he can claim power over him without upsetting anyone's sensitivities. He herds Lobo, but no chasing, just a calm, interested eye and a lot of gentle close-closer-closest pacing. This usually has the effect of distracting Lobo from walking in whatever direction he was originally going in. Lobo will dutifully pay attention by rubbing a bit against Odin as the dog passes by, then he lays down calmly. Sometimes at this point, Odin licks him right up the face, chin to forehead. Benway observes the scene with a benevolently menacing eye from above. As Lobo has some 'problems', he requires prescription meds every night that he doesn't like to take. Odin is already actively working with us to get the cat in the evening for his feeding. Not perfectly, but catching on.

 

Anyway, the little guy is still sometimes a handful but already helping too. Just thought I'd share, our pack, though unconventional, is gelling nicely.

 

--ooky

+Odin (BC pup)

Dr. Benway

& Lobo

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Don't go there. You'll be sorry one day.

 

I thought and did the exact same thing with Violet when I first got her. She would bring me my little no-recall-having feist when it was time to walk the little dogs. She would fetch cats from under the bed. I thought it was fascinating and helpful.

 

It gets worse from here, my friend, and will develop into a nearly uncontrollable obsession with working inappropriate animals. Trust me on this one.

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Ditto. I wouldn't encourage this at all. It's good that they like each other, and there's no chasing going on, but I would not let him get used to stalking, staring or trying to "work" the cat. Just ask SincereArtisan who has a cat obsessed dog who will NOT leave the poor thing alone.

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This would be one behavior I'd nip in the bud. What is cute now will beome increasingly annoying and obsessive as time goes by. Finding the cat is one thing, but there is no way I would not let him "herd" the cat.

 

Well, he has been herding Lobo, and just like my in-laws' purebred Dobie, I am really seeing a bred behavior come out. It is fascinating! When Margie the Dobie is let out and someone has come on the property, she runs like a horse or something, fast circling around the perimeter. She barks up a storm with the most fearsome, rabid-sounding snarls and barks you've ever heard, even though she is a total wuss that will urinate over you as soon as look at you. My in-laws seem helpless to stop this, and, irrespective of my differences with them in terms of sternness in dog training, I can see as how that dog is .. just...meant...to DO that!

 

This is not a breed trait for a Dobie, this is a result of lack of training, and quiet possibly fear. Odin "herding" the cat is prey drive, not herding - and it can become OCD where it is impossble for him to concentrate on anything else while a cat is nearby. I've spent a year and a half trying to break the "cat habit" with one of my BCs and it ain't fun

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So when your soon adult dog is herding your cat, and the cat attempts to challange her back and says "no" like a belligerant ewe, and the your good little Border Collie does as any good herding dog should and....

 

BITES HER HARD ON THE FACE

 

are you going to be as thrilled? (Hopefully the cat will only be injured and not dead)

 

You are deliberately encouraging some major problems here. Please stop.

 

~~~~~~~

 

The Dobe has some obessive compulsive stuff going on, likely based in fear and now habit. It is not a breed trait. The dog needs help - medically and behaviorally.

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Our female BC is about 2 1/2 and it's been constant correction with her interaction with our house cat since she was a puppy. It's a lot of work to keep telling them that this is not ok, but well worth it later on. She still has a strong desire to "manage" the cat, but we are finally at the point where she can be out of her crate all night, not stalking and not harassing him, so that's good.

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This is a good thing but perhaps not the way you think. I have seen this in young dogs. I have a young dog now who will do walk-ups on anything. This is their desire to stalk coming out. When I see it I am very pleased to start training and putting the dog on a target. You don't often hear it, it is not good BC press but it is their instinct to stalk that we turn into herding. I did a seminar on this recently and my audience was shocked. Start putting your training on him.

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Instead of "not good press" try the more accurate desciption of "stereotypes and myths about Border Collies". It will make an interesting update to the seminars you present.

 

Seen lots of pups from the pound and pet homes that will stalk. Setters, Pointers, Bulldogs, mixed breeds, heck even a labradoodle. There is way more to getting a useful herding dog out of a pup than the ability to stalk.

 

For that matter, I know a lot of nice working dogs who have never considered bothering a cat. Definately I don't know any good herders who's owners can't control them around a cat.

 

The pup is trying out "hunting" the cat in this example. Since he's got herding genetics, you will see some typical behaviors in the process. You also will see wolf behaviors, wild dog behaviors... None of this is really headed towards a positive outcome. Basically its a SSDD and why so many of these dogs end up in the pound or in rescue "because he's nuts!" (aka he won't leave the cat alone, he's hurt the cat or himself with his obsession, or he's killed the cat)

 

eta - in case I wasn't clear enough, this is not a "good thing" in any way shape or form for the dog in question.

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This is a good thing but perhaps not the way you think.

 

I have to disagree as well. Our rescue is forever getting calls from people who think their border collie is meant to be a working dog because it "herds" (read "annoys the crap out of") the cat, kids, husband, what have you. Of course, they no longer want to live with this annoying creature but feel that, since it displays such talent, they can dump it in rescue and we can hand it off to that long line of farmers we have just waiting for their next working dog to come through us. :rolleyes:

 

It's not a good thing. Prey drive is prey drive, and that's all it is.

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Prey drive is prey drive, and that's all it is.

 

This was very interesting for me to learn about the breed because I'm always hearing or reading about Border Collies who will "herd" cats, other dogs, cars, kids, soccer balls, etc. Quinn is a sports bred dog who hangs out with other sports bred dogs. Of those dogs, he is the least likely to be motion reactive or "try to herd" <insert inappropriate subject here>. Yet when these dogs were exposed to sheep, Quinn was the only one who went berserk with excitement to get in there. At first to kill, I'm pretty sure, but after 5 minutes of his first real lesson, it was to move the sheep around. The other dogs ranged from unsure to outright frightened. Not that Quinn is especially gifted but my friends were surprised that it was my laid back, not especially pushy dog who had the desire to be a sheep dog rather than the ones who were the most "herdy."

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the ones who were the most "herdy."

You gotta love that (meaningless) term "herdy."

 

To the OP,

If you're allowing the dog to pester the cat now (i.e., "herd" it in from outdoors so you can give it its meds), sooner or later the cat may just decide to vacate the premises. Bad enough having medicine forced down you, but having the family dog harass you beforehand could be the final straw, so to speak. Do your cats a favor and teach your dog to leave them alone. Consider the situation from the cat's point of view, and while you may enjoy your dog "herding," your cat most certainly doesn't. And why would you want to stress your cat like that?

 

J.

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Hi all,

 

Wow, what a bummer to return to these messages! I do appreciate everyone's forthrightness and desire to help. And I would never pretend I am as well versed in BCs or any herding breeds as you all are (I fully admit I am a novice), but I also do not think you are giving me the benefit of the doubt in terms of knowing animals in general and my own pets in particular.

 

First off, about the Dobie not actually displaying instinctual, bred behavior: my husband worked as an adoption counselor for one of the largest shelters in the country for 3 years. He was one of their "breed experts" - that is, he counseled people adopting purebred dogs (or requesting certain types), and breed-typed many of the dogs when they came in. He learned under more experienced counselors, vets, and members of breed-specific rescue groups themselves. He is a nerd, to put it lightly, in that he will spend hours doing the reading, research, notetaking, interviews, whatever, to get better at stuff like that. HE is the one who told me that is what she was doing. I had no experience with Dobies, so wouldn't have known. But he did say they were bred from greyhounds - to run the perimeter of the manor - and rottweilers/GSD - to serve as guard-attack dogs. Noise-making comes before attack, so the noises must be scary to help protect the dogs (the 'investment' lasts longer that way, *shudder*), as this will avoid actually having to attack. They will reach the intruder first and alert the owner and other, "tank" dogs. I probably described Margie's behavior badly, and yes it is true she has fear issues AND they don't train her properly. Couldn't agree more! But NO dog I ever had growing up or knew growing up SOUNDS like her, runs perimeters like her, etc.

 

As for the cat situation. First off, let me say that I LOVE my cats and Odin and would never allow or want them to hurt each other. I have always been a self-described "cat person," actually (which may not help endear me here, I know). But if you think I have not shaped Odin's behavior towards the cats, then you are wrong. He was too pushy at first. I don't want to take too much credit either, because Benway has been JUST as instrumental in shaping his behavior as me. Remember, Benway is, was, and always will be the alpha of the furry (and sometimes, even the less-furry) bodies in this house. Odin fully accepts this as much as any of your dogs respect THEIR alphas, and thus he WILL NOT eat before Benway, and will NOT go through doors before him. He won't even go off the front step to go pee in the morning until Benway hits the ground. He gets to play with Benway when the good Doctor wants to play (which is often!).

 

Second, he is not harassing Lobo, or chasing him inside. The cat is much calmer with our new routine, because guess what used to happen in the evenings? Me and my husband chasing the cat, trying to get him out from under things, begging with him, and generally freaking him out DESPITE our best efforts not to do so. He has to have this medicine, and we have had to spend a good deal of every evening for the past 5 years making sure he takes it, in the process trying EVERYTHING. Now, Odin STOPS the cat. Gently. The cat does not feel cornered, he feels at most annoyed and then distracted, because Lobo LIKES Odin. They bump noses, sniff butts, and hang out within feet of each other all day long, so he is certainly not upset to have Odin 'in his face'. The amazing thing, is that Odin usually gets Lobo to just lay down, and then he licks him! That is a big reward for Odin. We pick Lobo up calm and sometimes even purring, which if you knew what the past 5 years have been like is so WEIRD! It also seems to make him MUCH more likely to eat his drug-food fast, which means he gets extra time with us in the evening instead of being sequestered from everyone, which made him yowl. So please do not think I am COMPLETELY naive when I see this and go, wow, this is USEFUL, intelligent behavior on Odin's part.

 

These are not ordinary cats. I have had many cats in my many years and I've NEVER had nor seen ones like these. Everyone who comes to my house expresses similar sentiments. They frighten some people with their ceaseless movement, noise, and toughness. I also know something about prey drive amongst interspecies pets, altho not with BCs vs anything. However, I did raise 3 free-range rats with my cats and never had injuries, just normal scuffle stuff no worse than what I see many of you describe between dogs in your packs (the alpha rat always won, too). My family's dog was a husky, which are known for having extremely strong prey drives and being cat-killers. He and my family's cat were the best of friends (altho the neighbor's cats had to watch out, and as I think other people's animals should stay off my property unless invited on AND he had a rock-solid recall, I didn't mind this).

 

HOWEVER, I will say that it is entirely possible I don't understand all the ramifications of this behavior, and thank you all for your sincere warnings. A common and sensible theme I have picked up from many threads on this forum is how it is MUCH easier to stop bad/problem/obsessive behavior before it starts than to try to correct it later. You all have made me see that what I simply cannot view right now as bad behavior or even verging on such may have serious consequences if allowed to change or become more aggressive OR more obsessive in any way.

 

And I DO plan to work him with livestock, BTW...have been researching avenues available to me including a manager at work who raises kelpies, trials competitively, and leases land/sheep. I probably know nothing, but I see great talent in him, b/c as I understand it the BEST herding dogs do not unduly stress other animals, are under complete control of their handlers, and use gentle coersion before threatening eye before physical force, and I think he is capable of all of this (but I am a super proud momma!) Regardless, what I am trying to do now (and so far have done) is establish ONE pack in my house, which means Odin should treat Lobo as a lower ranking individual and not livestock. He should treat Benway as alpha, so CLEARLY not livestock. Although as far as I can tell this behavior has brought the whole family closer, I will remain vigilant that his behavior does not show he is treating the cat as livestock in a fundamental way that could be bad for all of us. Thanks again,

 

-ooky

+Odin (BC pup)

Dr. Benway (ocicat)

& Lobo (bengal)

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I'll second everything that has already been said, and...

 

And I DO plan to work him with livestock, BTW...have been researching avenues available to me including a manager at work who raises kelpies, trials competitively, and leases land/sheep. I probably know nothing, but I see great talent in him, b/c as I understand it the BEST herding dogs do not unduly stress other animals, are under complete control of their handlers, and use gentle coersion before threatening eye before physical force, and I think he is capable of all of this (but I am a super proud momma!)

 

add that the dog's behavior around your cats has (generally speaking) absolutely no bearing whatsoever on how that dog will interact with livestock,

 

A

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Wow, what a bummer to return to these messages!

 

Why? Because people took the time to try to help you, and you didn't like their responses because they didn't say, "Oh cool, your dog herds the cat? That will be one great herding dog!"?

 

I probably know nothing, but I see great talent in him

 

Because of the way he herds the cat? Please go back and read what people's responses, and don't worry about any particular "tone" of how things may be coming across. You have been given a lot of very good information.

 

I'll take another shot at it and see if this doesn't help. There are many great dogs that are competing at very high levels all over the country. Few, if any of them, herd cats, but more importantly, few, if any, are ALLOWED to (or encouraged) to herd cats. According to your theory above, they couldn't possibly be good herding dogs because they don't see cats as something to herd. No? It's not their herding instinct that makes them want to herd the cats. It is their prey instinct, and stopping them from forming a very bad habit will not affect their working ability whatsoever.

 

You all have made me see that what I simply cannot view right now as bad behavior or even verging on such may have serious consequences if allowed to change or become more aggressive OR more obsessive in any way.

 

Exactly. And many of them speak from experience.

 

Jodi

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I'll just say this- I have an older cat who is rendered unable to move around because of the dog's need to "herd" her. It isn't fun for this cat. I have to now carry her to feed her, because she doesn't want to run the gauntlet. Yes, I have gotten on the dogs for this, but cat just won't even try. It really sucks for my older kitty to have to put up with this. The dogs don't hurt her, but I know she is NOT happy. Don't let it go on. Seriously, your cats deserve the ability to move about freely- imagine if someone constantly stalked you all the time.

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Do you realize that working dogs are never ever allowed to interact with stock except as directed by the handler? I know an author who writes about BCs in the popular market allows his dogs to hang out and "bond" with sheep unsupervised. So I thought it might be good to point out to you that real working dogs are never allowed to do this. It results in stock being harassed and dogs developing terrible habits.

 

It's a bit unrealistic to ask the dog to work an animal sometimes and politely treat it as a companion at other times.

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Don't think it won't happen, if your pup truely is understanding that he is moving the cat, one day when the cat decides that it won't move the results may not be to your liking, I have a hen here that is just getting back to her feet after telling Riley she was not going to move, that part did not get her hurt, it was when the hen pecked Riley on the nose when Riley told her she will move that put Riley over the edge, but really Riley was not over the edge, just applied more pressure to make her point, unfortunately it injured the hen. She's ok now, getting around fine with the other hens, but when I give the walk up command and Riley applies pressure to move the chickens that hen says "Yes Mamme".

 

Deb

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Hi again,

 

Ok. First, let me start off by saying I GET IT. I am not stupid, and can understand the clearly worded objections you all have here. Please read my 1st post again and see that I am not describing a problem, merely gushing about my current state of domestic bliss and harmony, being a "dork" about my pets to other people I thought would appreciate that as well as marveling at the way bred behaviors in dogs can be so apparent at such an early age. However, the "bummer" was, that after your responses, I DID understand that I had to give up my dream of having Odin help with the cat in some of the ways I was imagining, because it IS unrealistic to think Odin could understand as a puppy how we could use his help with Lobo but also Lobo is his pack-mate. Please read my 2nd post, where I thanked you all for your "sincere, forthright advice", admitted I was a novice with BCs, had not considered the ramifications and applied sound thematic advice from other threads. So let me reiterate again that I GET IT. There is no problem now, I was not asking for help on this issue, but I admitted your advice, though not what I wanted to hear, was helpful and I WAS listening. I will not let this become a problem, and have a better idea what the dangers are, thanks to you.

 

Second, I really think some of you need to consider why you are here. I know how forums work; how there are core members who set the tone for the entire board. I was a member of a rat forum when I had rats. My experience with that forum was so great in so many ways, and I became one of the core posters there for several years. I also was able to make friends and share geeky stories about my animals with other animal freaks that would bore other people to tears.I learned tons about how to always do better by my rats, from an interactive and seemingly bottomless pool of knowledge. You guys see, I am in this thing for the next 15 years, and want support, info, help, experience, friendship. What I don't want is to be attacked, when I am trying really hard to be the best owner possible, because this is supposed to also be fun right? Frankly, instead of getting flamed I'd rather spend time with my dog and cats, thanks so much.

 

Some of you suggested I not "worry about tone", so let me again please ask that you reread the thread - including my 2 posts on the matter. Some people didn't flame me, and while very stern and seemingly reading the worst into what I was saying, were still obviously and sincerely trying to help me. Shetlander had very nice replies that seemed to try to diffuse the "tone" a bit and tell about her dog. But many of the rest of you very obviously did not read what I said very closely. A later poster claimed I was having the dog "chase the cats in", and many other jumped on this. There was NO DESCRIPTION of any behavior like this in my original post, Odin was stopping the cat and the cat was lying down. Anecdotes other people were sharing got mixed in with my original story to become totally unlike the actual situation. People seem fixated on the idea this behavior is leading me to think Odin will be the best herding dog EVER. No, I am his mom and so rather predictably think he'll be the best dog at ANYTHING, but what I specifically said made me think this in the 2nd post was his innate gentleness and willingness and focus to work with me as his trainer - and I am sorry for writing that because it actually had little to do with his behavior towards the cats in this one instance. I was talking about his general gentleness towards them and his focus during our training - on other things, like sit, lay, speak, shake, touch, spin, stay, and heel. Didn't explain that well enough, I guess, but most of you don't seem to read my posts too closely anyway.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think some of you, especially Lenojo and Julie, need to think about what they really want to impart to newbies on this forum. Is is help and advice? - because that is sorely needed and much appreciated. Many of you helped me SO MUCH with my crate training question - we have already made leaps and bounds thanks to that advice. Or is it an in-club of all the "best BC" owners that think exactly like you do, plus some sport of telling people what crappy pet owners they are when you think they are not like you? Lenojo's posts to me come across as very belligerent and put me on the defensive immediately - read them again and tell me how they would not. They are essentially telling me that the worst doom I have ever seen is heading my way in response to a playful post gushing about my family. As a former teacher, I know this training method may work with dogs but is NOT the best way to impart information to people.

 

Julie's post: 1) incorrectly says I am having Odin CHASE the cats in from inside. 2) Makes it sound like I am maliciously and purposefully "harassing" the cat with the dog when my description clearly outlines a cat who enjoys the attention and the company and is NOT upset. 3) You insinuate I am already practically torturing him by giving him his necessary prescription meds ("force down his throat" seems a bit loaded, don't you think?) Julie, you are not here, why do you speak to me as if you have actually watched me be stupid, mean, and evil to my cat, and describe him as if he's cowering in the corner and I just hadn't bothered to notice? I mean, what made you jump to that conclusion? Do you know what breed a bengal is? Lobo is a hybrid with an undomesticated species of jungle cat, very much like a wolf hybrid. He is DIFFERENT from other cats, and very engaged and very present with the dog - NOT scared. You also suggest he will "vacate the premises" - by which I suppose you assume he is indoor-outdoor. Wrong! I do not agree with that and he only goes outside in our fenced yard under supervision. I want to protect him from cars, predators, disease. I want to protect my neighbors from having to deal with a cat that comes uninvited onto their property and harasses their animals through the window or leaves nice presents for others to clean up. I want to protect native songbird and small mammal populations. I personally think its irresponsible to your cats to let them be indoor-outdoor or outdoor only, but out of rspect for your BC knowledge would not have wanted to make an issue of it, until you think the worst of me. Can you say you care about your cats as much as your dogs, really? Do you have a "heart cat" you are not sure that ANY animal can ever really live up to? Do you have two difficult rescue cats that require a lot of specialized attention, including serious mental and physical stimulation, to be healthy and happy? In my mind I really doubt you care for any of your cats the way I care for mine. Lenojo and Julie, you may have been technically trying to help, but please read the posts again, in order, AND FULLY, and maybe consider how these responses might have made you feel in the reverse situation. Is severely chastising someone the way to really get them to listen to good sound advice? No - it's the way bullies push their agendas.

 

This makes me so upset to say, but if I had a REAL question or a CURRENT problem, after this reaction I could only expect some or many of you would be more interested in blaming or judging me than actually reading my post and listening to what I said. Not all - many of you are and HAVE been lovely, and I've loved hearing about your amazing, wonderful dogs. And while I don't think I deserved the assumptions some of you made in this thread or the tone some of you took - I tried to take it well and THANKED you for your help, tried to explain myself better, and tried to tell you I've taken it to heart. Odin and I do need a place to ask questions, to get help and support over the next 15 years. But I don't think it's here. And I think many of you who assume I'm so stupid I never even thought about the possibility my cats or dog might not adjust well to living together (or even be seriously injured) will have no problem with that.

 

-ooky and husband, Odin, Dr, Benway, and Lobo

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Hi-

Cats and dogs can get along well together. They just have to be trained. The simple "no" when the dog tries to "round up the cat" will work wonders. You need to be in charge and also stand up when you give these commands- makes you the alpha. All of my BC's have gotten along well with cats- some were "cat starers" but they remained their distance.

I had one male that had his own cat. They slept together and were best friends. My two dogs now respect cats. It's all in how you train them.

My dogs have been "swatted" more my cats than they had hoped for. My BF has a crazy cat that teases the BC's. She evil. LOL. Also smart. Harmony is great. All animals can get along. Best wishes.

Dianne

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Sigh. No doubt I'll be wasting my "breath" here and only further offending your sensibilities, since clearly you are the arbiter of what it appropriate language and what isn't, but I'll try anyway. First, if you are a veteran of forums then you surely know that a majority of people on such sites are lurkers--they read the information posted but rarely, if ever, post themselves. When I reply to threads, I try to keep that in mind. I'm not just replying to a particular person (unless I actually quote them) but just assume that my responses will be read by others who might face similar situations in their lives.

 

So let's go back to the cat issue. You posted, gushing about the wonderful things your dog was doing to help with the cats. I said I wouldn't allow a dog to harass the cat. You now have taken that as personal attack, which if course it was not intended to be. To me a dog harassing another animal is any "herding" behavior that is inappropriate to the situation. I do not allow my dogs to chase (note, by using this word I am not in any way intending to imply that you let your dog chase the cat--it is simply a word used to describe a behavior that I find unacceptable), "herd," or stare at the cats. All are harassment in my view. You may have a different view, and you're welcome to state it, but that doesn't mean I'm somehow flaming you or otherwise attacking you because I consider allowing a dog to "work a cat" to be harassment. I think it's important for anyone reading a thread such as this one to at least be made to think about such behaviors in a different light. Sure, those sorts of behaviors may delight you, but as a number of people have pointed out, such behaviors don't delight all of us--and that's the *important point* I and others have tried to make. It would be a shame if someone reading this thread got the idea that everyone thinks it's great to allow the dog to "herd" the cat and then encouraged it with their own dogs and cats with a bad result (because despite the good result you seem to have had, in general not everyone may have that same result with their normal, everyday cats).

 

Some of you suggested I not "worry about tone", so let me again please ask that you reread the thread - including my 2 posts on the matter.

I don't think anybody flamed you--people were simply being frank (flaming you would have been to call you names, etc., which no one here did), and yet you're now using that as an excuse to come back and lecture us, especially me, on how we should respond to you. This is a public forum. You have to expect that there will be folks who disagree with you, or folks whose "tone" (how one tells tone over the Internet is beyond me) you don't like. That doesn't make the information presented any less useful.

 

Julie's post: 1) incorrectly says I am having Odin CHASE the cats in from inside. 2) Makes it sound like I am maliciously and purposefully "harassing" the cat with the dog when my description clearly outlines a cat who enjoys the attention and the company and is NOT upset. 3) You insinuate I am already practically torturing him by giving him his necessary prescription meds ("force down his throat" seems a bit loaded, don't you think?)

 

Okay, I usually try to avoid these "wars of words," but here is what I actually said:

To the OP,

If you're allowing the dog to pester the cat now (i.e., "herd" it in from outdoors so you can give it its meds), sooner or later the cat may just decide to vacate the premises. Bad enough having medicine forced down you, but having the family dog harass you beforehand could be the final straw, so to speak. Do your cats a favor and teach your dog to leave them alone. Consider the situation from the cat's point of view, and while you may enjoy your dog "herding," your cat most certainly doesn't. And why would you want to stress your cat like that?

 

You've gone on and on about how the rest of us didn't bother to read what you said, but here's what I said in a direct quote (above). Where did I say that your dog was chasing the cat? I said the dog was pestering the cat, and as I explained in my opening paragraph in this post, I personally consider that if my dogs are stalking, preventing movement, staring, etc., then they are pestering or harassing. You may disagree with that, but it doesn't give you the right to put words in my mouth so that you can then chastise me saying something I didn't say. As for the "force it down the throat" comment, I am a cat owner and have been for many more years than I've been a dog owner. I don't know of many, if any, cats that willingly take meds. You are choosing the be offended by terminology that has nothing to do with implying cruelty to an animal. Anyone who owns cats understands that "force meds done a cat's throat" means nothing more than that a cat generally isn't a willing participant when it comes to taking medications. Again, you're choosing to be offended at your interpretation of what I said because that's easier than actually trying to understand the message (because the message isn't what you wanted to hear).

 

Julie, you are not here, why do you speak to me as if you have actually watched me be stupid, mean, and evil to my cat, and describe him as if he's cowering in the corner and I just hadn't bothered to notice? I mean, what made you jump to that conclusion?

Well, since nowhere did I actually say you were being mean to your cat and that it was cowering in the corner, I don't guess I did jump to any conclusion. You have jumped to those conclusions for me and are now defending yourself against things I never stated in the first place. But, gee, it's the rest of us who apparently can't be bothered to read what you wrote and interpret it correctly. Do you see that you're doing here the exact same thing you're accusing some of the rest of us of doing? Does this personal attack on me count as a flame?

 

Do you know what breed a bengal is? Lobo is a hybrid with an undomesticated species of jungle cat, very much like a wolf hybrid. He is DIFFERENT from other cats, and very engaged and very present with the dog - NOT scared.

 

Thank you for assuming that I'm too ignorant to know what a bengal is. Are you flaming me here? Oh wait, it's only a flame if it's something directed at you that you don't want to hear.

 

You also suggest he will "vacate the premises" - by which I suppose you assume he is indoor-outdoor. Wrong! I do not agree with that and he only goes outside in our fenced yard under supervision. I want to protect him from cars, predators, disease. I want to protect my neighbors from having to deal with a cat that comes uninvited onto their property and harasses their animals through the window or leaves nice presents for others to clean up. I want to protect native songbird and small mammal populations.

Okay, you said the dog was bringing him in from outside. If that's not the case, then you shouldn't have stated it. Now you clarify that the cat is outside only under your supervision. Fine, it's still outside, and at least according to what you wrote, the dog is still helping you catch the cat while it is outside (that is, unless my reading comprehension skills have completely failed me). There's no reason to think that he might not leave if given the opportunity. And that's not a personal attack on you--just an observation from many years of experience with cats (albeit ordinary, everyday cats) on cat behavior.

 

I personally think its irresponsible to your cats to let them be indoor-outdoor or outdoor only, but out of rspect for your BC knowledge would not have wanted to make an issue of it, until you think the worst of me.

 

Huh? Where have I said *anything* about whether my cats are indoors or outdoors? How did indoor vs. outdoor cats even come into the conversation? I am amazed that you would even make a statement such as this after spending so much time "flaming" me for apparently reading stuff into your posts that wasn't there. Can I ask why you are doing to me exactly what you accuse a number of us doing to you (i.e., jumping to conclusions on the basis of nothing that's been stated here)?

 

Can you say you care about your cats as much as your dogs, really? Do you have a "heart cat" you are not sure that ANY animal can ever really live up to? Do you have two difficult rescue cats that require a lot of specialized attention, including serious mental and physical stimulation, to be healthy and happy? In my mind I really doubt you care for any of your cats the way I care for mine.

 

Wow, that's a pretty strong statement, especially given the preceding lecture about how we certainly couldn't kow anything about your relationship with your cats and dog and how dare we make any assumptions. Can you see, again, how you are doing the exact same thing you've just spent "pages" accusing me of doing? That is, you know nothing about my cats or my dogs and how much I care for my cats or my dogs has no bearing on this conversation.

 

Lenojo and Julie, you may have been technically trying to help, but please read the posts again, in order, AND FULLY, and maybe consider how these responses might have made you feel in the reverse situation. Is severely chastising someone the way to really get them to listen to good sound advice? No - it's the way bullies push their agendas.

 

Um, perhaps you could take your own advice here?

 

This makes me so upset to say, but if I had a REAL question or a CURRENT problem, after this reaction I could only expect some or many of you would be more interested in blaming or judging me than actually reading my post and listening to what I said. Not all - many of you are and HAVE been lovely, and I've loved hearing about your amazing, wonderful dogs. And while I don't think I deserved the assumptions some of you made in this thread or the tone some of you took - I tried to take it well and THANKED you for your help, tried to explain myself better, and tried to tell you I've taken it to heart. Odin and I do need a place to ask questions, to get help and support over the next 15 years. But I don't think it's here. And I think many of you who assume I'm so stupid I never even thought about the possibility my cats or dog might not adjust well to living together (or even be seriously injured) will have no problem with that.

 

As much as I'd like to feel sorry for you for feeling that you've been treated badly here, the fact that you've singled me out for flaming and have certainly treated me as badly as you think you've been treated (just reread what you wrote directly to me in your last post), I have to say that I personally think you've overreacted here. If you are a veteran of other forums then it seems to me you ought to know that it's always best to take what you can use and ignore the rest. It never serves any purpose to go all self-righteous and start being rude to other posters becaue you have chosen to be offended and victimized. It saddens me that you would think that any of us deliberately post to be malicious, when surely you ought to understand that this isn't the case. Being overly sensitive is never a good thing when one is asking for advice. And these kinds of overreactions are the main reason that many of the veterans here don't even bother posting in the general section anymore.

 

If you wish to continue this, it would probably be best to take the conversation private. No one else here really needs to wade through all this.

 

J.

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Julie was patient and complete, so I won't try to be.

 

Regarding this sort of debate with novice BC owners - well, lets just say its not our first rodeo. It always follows the same pattern:

 

First an "innocent and cute" behavior is being encouraged by a novice owner.

 

Then the people with experience point out its not innocent or cute - and why.

 

Then the Novice Owner comes back very pleasently with "why my dog is different and the rules do not apply"

 

Experienced people reiterate why the rules do apply, and why the behavior should not be encouraged or allowed for the health of the dog and the others involved

 

Novice Owner gets angry because they "are being picked on".

 

Experienced people explain gently they are not picking on anyone. They reiterate the advice with concrete information.

 

Then Novice Owner either:

 

goes away permanently (very sad, but its a choice some people make)

goes away for a long time and comes back to say ExperienceD owners were right and we had to backtrack but we got it fixed (yippee!, but should it have to take so long?)

goes away for a medium amount of time and comes back asking where he can rehome the dog (don't get me started on that choice!)

 

or.....

 

*wonder of wonders*...takes a deep breath and thinks about what he is doing, changes, and has a great life with the dog without have to backtrack to fix avoidable big mistakes.

 

I'd rather see number 4 personally. Taking the abuse from some to succeed with others is what keeps me, and I suspect a few others too :rolleyes:, doing it.

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Good lord... I see the cats are out on the board lately...

 

I won't mind if I bring this slightly off-topic, and maybe helping to put the claws away. My question: how do you tell if your cat and BC are merely playing and your BC isn't "herding" (i.e. terrorizing/bullying) the cat? I always get after Jade when she starts staring Lacey down or is trying to pester her, but when Lacey is on a wild streak and running around the house like a bullet, and Jade is trailing her, is that playing or is that pestering? Sometimes Lacey, when she's running around and playing, will playfully swat Jade or leap up around her or something like that (don't worry, she's declawed), and I'm just not sure if they are playing or what's going on. I can clearly tell when Lacey is angry at Jade because her ears will go back and she wears her "I hate you" face, and I get Jade to leave her alone. Still a work in progress, but Jade does fairly well.

 

Should I intervene when they're racing around like that? Is letting them do that encouraging poor behavior?

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