echoskybound Posted June 13, 2008 Report Share Posted June 13, 2008 I just started my three year old Rio with agility and flyball classes... yeah I know, little bit of a late start, lol. The only things I can really practice at home (with the little equipment I have) are weaving, jumping, retrieval, etc. He does extremely well and learns in no time. However, he HATES his classes. He pretends he knows nothing, and as soon as he's done with his turn, he either runs to the door or sits by the chair that I had been sitting in. He won't even do a complete course in the class; he'll weave... then sit by the door. He'll do a tunnel.. then run and sit by the door. I don't really know how to get him more comfortable with the classes, or why he hates them so much in the first place. He doesn't even do this at the vet. I know that he hates being on a leash and responds much better when he's not on it, and he also hates being grabbed (the instructor tries to pick him up sometimes or pull him by the collar, and he squirms like crazy.) Lots of little quirks to work out with this guy! Also, since he's so freaked out about being on a leash, I can't seem to teach him to heel either. I've tried it on-lead, and by luring him with treats (which he's not entirely interested in), but my dream is to someday get him to master heeling (making eye contact, staying close, backing up when I back up) but I have no idea where to start if I want that kind of result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted June 14, 2008 Report Share Posted June 14, 2008 You say he pretends to know nothing. Perhaps there is another reason why he is shutting down. He might feel too much pressure at class. He might not know how to process the situation emotionally and so he is going to the places in the room where he feels safe. I would take the signs that you describe as a clear signal from the dog that too much is being asked right now, or that he is confused. Maddie used to lie down in the middle of class and take a nap when she got confused. When she learned to love the game, she stopped doing that! The problem that you are probably going to run into if you make him continue to go to classes where he has to do things to which he responds so negatively is that he isn't going to suddenly change his mind and love it. He will probably continue to dislike it more. My first recommendation to you is to try to find a way to build a positive association with the training facility for him. If that means that you have to observe a few classes while allowing him to lie on a mat with a kong filled with peanut butter instead of participating in class, it would really pay off in the long run. You really, really, really, really need to find a motivator that he truly wants. With a dog who seems uninterested in treats, I would get some beef and slice it into cubes while raw. Then I would sear them in a frying pan so that the middles are still raw. Liver is another thing that many dogs go ga-ga over, but if you use that watch that you don't feed a lot at once! I would take the dog to class and not ask him to do anything at all - just give frequent high value rewards for being there. If he were to show interest in going out on the floor, I would take him and reward him highly, but then take him off right away. Reverse psychology can work really well in cases like this. You can actually use leaving the floor (which is something that he wants) as part of his reward for going out there. Also, I would ask the instructor not to handle my dog if the dog did not like it. I don't mind if an instructor loves on my dog if the dog is open to it, but if she wants to take the collar or pick the dog up, I expect to be asked. Finally, while I know how difficult it is - believe me - it might be best right now to forget about what you want for your dog and try to focus on what your dog needs. If you invest some time in building positive associations with training and with working with you in that setting, behaviors can come later. ETA: 3 years is not too late to start! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted June 14, 2008 Report Share Posted June 14, 2008 Um, I hate to sound overly simplistic, but my gut feeling from your post, is that the training center you are at, and perhaps the instructor are turning this dog off. If you continue on this path, you will sour your dog for good. Look into other centers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seelie Fey Posted June 14, 2008 Report Share Posted June 14, 2008 I was kind of thinking along the lines of the poster just above me. It doesn't seem like the instructor should be manhandling (grabbing by the collar, picking up) you dog - especially if he's already reluctant and shut down. The instant you start dragging or pulling a dog toward something, the dog's goal becomes avoiding that thing. Some instructors seem to get caught up in what they are doing and you end up in a situation where they are pulling a dog toward an a-frame by a prong collar (or something, that was just the recent incident that popped in my mind.) Also, your state of mind and the nature of the drive to the facility can really influence you dog. Are you thinking "oooo, YAY time to go to agility" or are you in "oh crap, we're late, hurry up get in the car. Now. hurry hurry hurry, forgot the keys where are the treats she's gonna yell at me where's my stuff better hurry" kind of mode? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pammyd Posted June 14, 2008 Report Share Posted June 14, 2008 I dont like the sound of the trainer at all For the 1st couple of months Ben wouldnt let the trainer near him cos she was trying to hold him when his stays were a bit wobbly so she kept out of the way and we did what we could with the stays we had - even if it ment the channel weave was down to 2 poles but I can think of no reason at all to yank the dog - let alone for the trainer to yank the dog - you are the handler its her job to tell you how to handle your dog Agility should be fun - full stop! if your dog is not having fun then dont push them If he is only doing one thing then stop asking for more - be at the other end of the tunnel with a treat or toy your dog loves - or even race to the door and meet your dog there - if thats what he wants thats his treat but him doing that one thing is the best thing in the world and you let him know how fab he is and how proud you are How many other dogs are in the class?? what is the room like?? is the floor surface weird for him or are there strange noises?? I know Bens stays were rubbish cos he was freaked by the wind on the barn door but he has got better and better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted June 14, 2008 Report Share Posted June 14, 2008 Also, since he's so freaked out about being on a leash, I can't seem to teach him to heel either. I've tried it on-lead, and by luring him with treats (which he's not entirely interested in), but my dream is to someday get him to master heeling (making eye contact, staying close, backing up when I back up) but I have no idea where to start if I want that kind of result. I'd start with placing him in a sit next to a wall. Then stand beside him and encourage him to walk with you. Reward for each step he takes with you. Walk about 5 steps, then end your session. Repeat this several times a day for 2 or 3 days then, if it's going well, go for a few steps father and only reward every other step or so. Always, always, always stop when your dog is still having a great time - at first that means very short sessions! You can also get a short (8-12") drag leash and have him wear that while you train at home so he gets used to having something attached to his collar Finally, while I know how difficult it is - believe me - it might be best right now to forget about what you want for your dog and try to focus on what your dog needs. If you invest some time in building positive associations with training and with working with you in that setting, behaviors can come later. So true! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haleigh Posted June 14, 2008 Report Share Posted June 14, 2008 I definitely second too much pressure...assuming you are in group lessons, I would drop them. Start private lessons if possible, or enlist the help of friends with calm -very calm- dogs. You want to build up his confidence to the point where he can function with other dogs around. Go into a large field and practice sits and downs while some "CALM" dogs are walking around him. The important part here is to find his threshold. Figure out at what distance the dogs have to be at for him to stop functioning. Go at that distance and back up 5 or so feet and practice at that. Gradually start moving the dogs closer. The important part is to make sure Rio doesn't get confused or overwhelmed to the point he shuts down. Once he can work with those dogs around, you can try going back into group lessons. This is one thing I've learned with Joy's reactivity- Don't be afraid to stand up for your dog and tell your trainer to back off. Joy was training in a very correction-based facility, and every time Joy looked at a dog I was told to pop her. I did that for a little bit, but when she started escalating, I told the trainer it wasn't working, and when she used Joy as a demo dog, she was NOT allowed to do that. They may be the trainer, and you may be paying them, but YOU are the one that knows your dog best. THEY don't live with them and see the day to day behaviors of Rio and they don't know what makes him tick. If they push him too far, he hates them. No big deal, right? But the big deal is when he trains with you because he has to, rather then him enjoying it. Also, have you looked into clicker training? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninso Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Root Beer made some particularly excellent suggestions. I sympathize with your frustration--my dog has similar issues. He shuts down very easily and I have to take things at his pace to keep him into it. My dog particularly hates unfamiliar places and will do exactly what you describe--running to the exit. A door doesn't even have to be opened in his presence for him to know where it is. We recently tried agility for 5 weeks, and it was a constant struggle. Lok spent the first few weeks trying to drag me toward the door! In order to conquer this issue I had to greatly increase my rate of reward, just for him being there and giving me his attention. I basically gave him a treat every 30 seconds that he was in a sit or down with his attention on me and every time he responded and re-focused when I called his name. I also had to keep him engaged with things he enjoyed. There was a lot of down time while other dogs were doing the obstacles, and so we would practice the tricks he enjoys doing--leg weaves, spins, etc, and he would get rewarded for doing those familiar things. It got better by the end of the class. He ended up really enjoying jumps and tunnels, and the pause table and I was even able to run him off leash a little bit without him bolting for the door. He hated contact obstacles though, and my trainer's method was just to force him onto them. He tried so hard even though he was scared to death, but once we were onto the contact obstacles nothing I could do was going to keep him from trying to get to the door. We quit the class, skipping the last session. We need to find a trainer that will let him go at his own pace. He, too, really hates to be pulled by the collar and picked up. Pulling by the collar onto a narrow board three feet off the ground was a nightmare for him! Is this Rio's first class experience? Whether it is or not, I would suggest not pushing him--it will just cause him to hate being there even more. Increase your rate of reward. Treat every 5 seconds just for attention and eye contact, if need be. If he does well for 10 minutes, leave!! Gradually work up to doing a full class. If you are worried about wasting your money, see if you can work something out with your instructor to spend a few weeks just aclimating Rio to the classroom and not necessarily participating in the class without being charged. Also, why does he freak out when he is on leash? You need to work through the freaking out before you try to get him to do anything on leash. In the mean time, there is no reason you can't teach "heel" off leash. I did. In fact, I taught my dog everything off leash first. I had no need to snap a leash on him and he seemed more comfortable that way. All of the suggestions in your previous "heeling" thread will work just fine off leash until you work through his leash issues. Bottom line--be patient, make sure your dog has what he needs to succeed. It can seem like taking the long way, but anything else will be counterproductive and even though it may work in the short term, it will likely backfire in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsofmenace Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 To me, it sounds like your boy is just plained stressed out and shut down. Stress in a dog is probably the worst thing you can have, believe me. It can lead to sooo many behavior problems, including reactivity. Been there, done that! I'm sure he's not just pretending he doesn't know anything. He's stressed out, so its hard for him to think. He'll do one thing for you simply because he thinks that doing one thing will mean he gets to leave the scary place. Frankly, any intructor should be able to see extreme stress in a dog. Grabbing a students dog by a collar and dragging him around is just awful! This is probably making him even MORE stressed out and I can definitly see him going over threshold and nipping at someone there. Once that happens, you have a whole nother set of problems to deal with. Haleigh is very, very right. It sounds like her and I had similar situations; reactive dogs at correction based training centers. The fact of the matter is, just because someone is the intructor, does not mean that there word is law. If you feel uncomfortable about doing something, don't do it. Its your dog, you know what is or isn't good for him more than your instructor. Do not allow your trainer to take him by the collar and drag him around. Agility is supposed to be fun! If you or your dog is not having fun, and you basically have to force him into doing things, than somewhere along the line something went wrong. In your situation, I would take some steps back with him. Lower your expectations. You can stay in the class, but I would try and get him to do much at all, especially not any sequencing. Try going to class and just walking around with him, praising him for staying calm. Don't try and get him to do any agility. Instead, do simply things that he knows like sits, downs and any tricks he can do. Keep it fun. Right now, I'm sure Rio gets stressed as soon as he knows that he's going to the training center. You want it to be a positive place for him. For the first class time, don't ask him to do any agility. The next week you go, if by the end of class he seems pretty happy and is doing the simple commands enthusiastically, ask him to do one jump or one tunnel, then turn on the praise! After doing that, make him do a few more tricks, then leave. Every time you go to class, you can build up what you do. The important thing is to not force him into doing anything. He won't learn to love agility, like I'm sure he could, if you force him. Explain to your trainer that what he/she is doing with Rio is not working and that you want to try something else to get him calmed down and loving agility. A good trainer will understand that his/her method of doing things is not right for everyone, and allow you to sort of do your own thing for awhile. If your trainer has a problem with this and insists on doing things his way, then find a new place to train! Good luck..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexie Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 If Root Beer's suggestions don't work or the instructor is unhappy with your efforts to make your dog more comfortable in the environment, I would take a serious look at whether you really want your dog in that trainiing environment. I tried last year to take Molly to basic obedience. She went from being so-so about dogs to having outright fear aggression in only 3 lessons--it progressed each time but I missed the signs. In the third lesson, the instructor tried to show me how to teach her to heel and had her bellycrawling for 5 minutes while he gave her leash corrections and praise at the same time and tried to shove treats in her mouth. It took me a long time to get her over that fear aggression and reactivity. It is still hard sometimes not to kick myself for having missed the signs and gotten her out of that environment sooner. By trying to leave, your dog is trying to tell you that he isn't happy there. If you can't make him comfortable with Root Beer's tips, there is more wrong than a basic lack of experience in the class environment. Trust him and get him out of there. Find somewhere else for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
echoskybound Posted June 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 Um, I hate to sound overly simplistic, but my gut feeling from your post, is that the training center you are at, and perhaps the instructor are turning this dog off. If you continue on this path, you will sour your dog for good. Look into other centers. You know, I sort of felt that at his first flyball class, but he goes to the same place for agility classes with a different instructor. It's weird because while it's his turn, he's excited and likes to do it, and while the other dogs are doing it he watches very closely.. but as soon as his turn is over, he runs for the door. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
echoskybound Posted June 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 I was kind of thinking along the lines of the poster just above me. It doesn't seem like the instructor should be manhandling (grabbing by the collar, picking up) you dog - especially if he's already reluctant and shut down. The instant you start dragging or pulling a dog toward something, the dog's goal becomes avoiding that thing. Some instructors seem to get caught up in what they are doing and you end up in a situation where they are pulling a dog toward an a-frame by a prong collar (or something, that was just the recent incident that popped in my mind.) Also, your state of mind and the nature of the drive to the facility can really influence you dog. Are you thinking "oooo, YAY time to go to agility" or are you in "oh crap, we're late, hurry up get in the car. Now. hurry hurry hurry, forgot the keys where are the treats she's gonna yell at me where's my stuff better hurry" kind of mode? Yeah... she wanted us to get them over the dog walk by pulling them by the collar, but I didn't want to, so she started pulling him.. he fell off and she was still holding onto his collar Strangely, this didn't turn him completely off. He went on the dog walk on his own, and then started running up and down the a-frame just for fun... the class laughed at him, lol I always give my dog a positive attitude, no matter what mood I'm in, and he loves car rides because 99% of the time he's going somewhere fun. he's always fine until we get there, then he stars crying as we pull in the driveway (I'm not sure if it's a sad cry or an excited cry, because he does that too whenever he gets to his favorite places) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
echoskybound Posted June 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 I definitely second too much pressure...assuming you are in group lessons, I would drop them. Start private lessons if possible, or enlist the help of friends with calm -very calm- dogs. You want to build up his confidence to the point where he can function with other dogs around. Go into a large field and practice sits and downs while some "CALM" dogs are walking around him. The important part here is to find his threshold. Figure out at what distance the dogs have to be at for him to stop functioning. Go at that distance and back up 5 or so feet and practice at that. Gradually start moving the dogs closer. The important part is to make sure Rio doesn't get confused or overwhelmed to the point he shuts down. Once he can work with those dogs around, you can try going back into group lessons. This is one thing I've learned with Joy's reactivity- Don't be afraid to stand up for your dog and tell your trainer to back off. Joy was training in a very correction-based facility, and every time Joy looked at a dog I was told to pop her. I did that for a little bit, but when she started escalating, I told the trainer it wasn't working, and when she used Joy as a demo dog, she was NOT allowed to do that. They may be the trainer, and you may be paying them, but YOU are the one that knows your dog best. THEY don't live with them and see the day to day behaviors of Rio and they don't know what makes him tick. If they push him too far, he hates them. No big deal, right? But the big deal is when he trains with you because he has to, rather then him enjoying it. Also, have you looked into clicker training? I have recently started clicker training him, but I haven't introduced it into his classes yet. Fortunately, my trainer in flyball always takes my suggestion about how to get Rio to do something, and they're surprised with my knowledge of his behavior. He generally seems to ignore the trainers unless they're holding a tennis ball, and he never even looks at another dog unless they're holding a tennis ball, so I can't figure out which of the two bother him. It's strange because he doesn't quite "shut down", he'll take his turn and do extremely well, but as soon as we say, "Great job Rio! Well done!" he runs for the door and stares at the knob. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
echoskybound Posted June 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 Also, why does he freak out when he is on leash? You need to work through the freaking out before you try to get him to do anything on leash. In the mean time, there is no reason you can't teach "heel" off leash. I did. In fact, I taught my dog everything off leash first. I had no need to snap a leash on him and he seemed more comfortable that way. All of the suggestions in your previous "heeling" thread will work just fine off leash until you work through his leash issues. I'm not really sure why he doesn't like the leash. I've barely ever had one on him, and I never really trained him to walk on a leash, so I think to him, it's just something that restrains him. He loves exploration and he always wants to be 50 feet ahead when we go for a walk. I guess the main reason I really want to teach him to heel off lead is so I can eventually introduce the leash without him having to feel so restrained. the heeling thread suggestions were great and I'm currently teaching him to come and sit attentively at my side when I call him. But for some odd reason.. he wants to be on the right, lol. Ah well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.