yancey fancy pants Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 I have two Beautiful Border Collies, Yancey, who is a 3 year old Blue Merle Male and Ruby, a Red and White Female, 3 months old. When will she go into Heat? How can you tell? I want to have one litter of Pups, then get her fixxed. I don't want to Breed her until she at least 18 months to 2 years old. I have a place to keep Yancey while she in heat but how do you tell if she going into heat and will I be able to tell when it's over?? What's the size of the average Litter? We love these Guys and don't want to hurt or endanger them in anyway...Thanks.....Rod and Molly Brown/Edgewood, New mexico. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berocca Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 Oh Dear God Hopefully some patient people will come along soon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afrancis Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 I have two Beautiful Border Collies, Yancey, who is a 3 year old Blue Merle Male and Ruby, a Red and White Female, 3 months old. When will she go into Heat? How can you tell? I want to have one litter of Pups, then get her fixxed. If you've been a member for a few years already, you hopefully will have already read not only several threads on border collie breeding as well as the sticky that says "Please read first" at the top of the General Border Collie Discussion section. It states: For the good of the breed, border collies should be bred only for working ability. The border collie breed was created by farmers and shepherds who wanted to develop a dog which could help them manage their livestock. They bred only to produce good workers, and that singleness of purpose created the breed we love. Changing the way border collies are bred will change the breed itself. Therefore, breeding dogs who have not proven themselves as useful herding dogs, or breeding for appearance/color, or breeding for sports or for "good pets," or breeding for anything other than working ability (which includes the health and temperament necessary for working) is harmful to the breed. To be very honest with you, after my dog Skye was fixed I had a twinge of regret that her great "pet dog" genes would not be passed on to another generation. But as a responsible border collie owner, I know that breeding her would have been a mistake. Enjoy your dogs, refrain from breeding them and if you want more, go to a rescue organization. FYI, this is a highly-charged subject that has been approached many times in the past. Do a search on "breeding" and you will get a lot of very thoughtful (not to mention intensely emotional) opinions and responses. Ailsa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 A good thread for you to read would be That time of the month. It's long, but very educational. I hope you will reconsider your decision to breed. Just because a dog is beautiful and the best pet ever is no reason to breed it. There are a lot of very wonderful border collies already in shelters and rescues who are in desperate need of the homes that the pups you'd produce would go to. Why not give those dogs who already exist the chance to find those homes, and just enjoy your dogs as companions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seelie Fey Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 Please don't breed your dogs. We have several questionable bc breeders in NM already, and a dearth of foster homes. The rescues are maxed out. Beautiful BCs are always popping up at Albuquerque Eastside and Westside, and they don't all find homes. My BC came from there, after someone bred her parents, sold the puppy to someone who couldn't deal with her, and then dumped her at four months of age. There was a lovely smooth red and white female there the other day. There is a bc puppy there this morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 If you have to ask, then you do not have the experience and education to deal with the problems a litter will present. "Learning on the fly" with breeding will get your dogs hurt and cause heartache and financial loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewie'sMom Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 Rod and Molly, Thanks for coming to this board to ask questions about a very serious issue. Your concern for your Ruby is admirable. However, that being said, I would gently and lovingly admonish your intent to breed your BCs. I’m sure you want only the best for Yancy and Ruby AND their potential offspring. But, if you breed a litter of pups as pet quality you will only be adding to the glut of adoptable dogs that are already homeless. I would suggest that if you’re really leaning heavily towards breeding, even if it’s just one litter, please make a visit to your local kill shelter. One visit may change your mind. There are SO many adoptable dogs in the mainstream that don’t find homes just because there are so many. For every pet-quality puppy you breed, there is one abused, neglected and homeless dog that loses out on a loving, caring, forever home. If you want to work toward improving the quality of the working breed, it takes much, much more than one litter. It’s a serious commitment and should be for love of the breed. Please think very seriously and do extensive research before deciding to breed any more pet-quality pups. Best regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 We love these Guys and don't want to hurt or endanger them in anyway...Thanks.....Rod and Molly Brown/Edgewood, New mexico. Then do not breed her, because if you do you are putting her at serious risk of complications during pregnancy, delivery, and post-partum. To answer your other question, some border collie bitches will come into season at six months and others not until they are nearly two years old. Don't worry about looking for signs - by next month, when she's four months old, just assume she could come into season at any time. Border collies are notorious for "silent heats," and even breeders with many years experience have been caught out. Do not leave her outdoors in a fence unless you are standing right there with her. Put her crate in a room and shut the door to keep your male out unless you are standing right there with them. Do not allow your children to walk her unless you are right there with them. If you follow the links and read the other posts, they will explain to you why you should not breed your border collie at all, and they are absolutely correct. Should you decide to ignore this advice, do not under any circumstances even consider breeding your bitch until she is at least two years old and not even then if it's her first heat. Which it might be. Do you really want to have to keep your bitch under such close surveillance for the next year and nine months? It would be far easier to spay her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 Just bumping this to the top. I don't have the energy to respond other than that, A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth G Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 All I can say calmly, is: I agree with all of the above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WyoBC Posted June 11, 2008 Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 I would think that since you have been here since '05 that you would know how everyone sands on back yard breeding. I know you must love your dogs and think that having more of them would be even better. But it's not. Please, if for no other reason than for the sake of your dogs, please re-think it. If you really want to think about breeding your dog I would go to your closest kill shelter and look at all of the dogs waiting for homes that will never come. Their excitment when someone comes, just to be let down when they walk away to look at another dog. This post may help. Please read Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted June 11, 2008 Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 Methinks the OP left the minute he didn't get the positive response he was seeking. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted June 12, 2008 Report Share Posted June 12, 2008 They more than often do, don't they, Julie? Why do so many people who come "looking for advice" seem to only be looking for agreement and justification? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaderBug Posted June 12, 2008 Report Share Posted June 12, 2008 If everyone poo-poos breeding, how does one ever become a responsible breeder if everyone is saying 'don't breed'?? I want to become a responsible BC breeder at some point in my life- I always do my homework before I commit to something- I've read many BC books and breeding books, and I wouldn't breed until the time was right and I had a dog that was outstanding (at herding, of course). My dogs have always come from a responsible, reputable breeder who breeds for working lines and working ability, and I wouldn't ever breed for any other purpose. To restate, How does anyone become a responsible breeder? Everyone has to start somewhere to become good at anything... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted June 12, 2008 Report Share Posted June 12, 2008 If everyone poo-poos breeding, how does one ever become a responsible breeder if everyone is saying 'don't breed'?? .........and I had a dog that was outstanding (at herding, of course). My dogs have always come from a responsible, reputable breeder who breeds for working lines and working ability, and I wouldn't ever breed for any other purpose. You provided the most important answer to your own question; this was not offered as part of the OP's reasoning for breeding. Of course this will require your dogs be trained up for livestock work in order to assess the dog's ability. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted June 12, 2008 Report Share Posted June 12, 2008 Here's my criterion: by the time you are ready to be a responsible breeder, you will have responsible breeders suggesting that you breed. And even then, this is not the only reason to breed. Before then, you must have a good idea in your mind of the type of dog you'll be aiming to produce, and how to attain that goal, and how you will know whether you are on the path to that goal. All this knowledge is acquired in only one way, and I believe there is no substitute. Raising livestock, and training a dog from puppyhood to Open level work, yourself, and using that dog in your livestock operation. Competing is also preferable as it is the most straightforward way for a novice breeder to judge the success of their training and the abilities of the dog in question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted June 12, 2008 Report Share Posted June 12, 2008 The education you receive from taking a pup from weaning to solid Open performance is invaluable,and the bare minimum of being able to make responsible breeding decisions in this breed. So the first thing you need to concentrate on it being able to competently train your own dog up to Open level and run it at a good standard. By good, I define that as a *minimum* of competently finishing average to difficult courses most of the time. ...you *could* do this a farm/ranch level, but it is very difficult to learn to evaluate a dogs qualities if you never subject yourself to public review (competition) by other educated Open handlers and trainers. After all...anyone can be "King" at home. Familarity with the stock, the land, the lack of pressure in general will cover a lot of faults. During the time it takes to get that dog to open you will have the time to learn many more things along the way that will help you with potentially breeding as well. Nutrition, management, preventative veterinary care, your preference in types of dogs to train and work with (both skills and temperament), genetics... "Haste makes waste" was never more true than in dog breeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted June 12, 2008 Report Share Posted June 12, 2008 Find yourself an accomplished handler/breeder (or two or three) and bug the crap out of them to mentor you in matching up breedings based on how the dogs work. Until you've trained and used several dogs, you cant effectively evaluate dogs and make good pairings. Work hard on making yourself and your dog the best you can be at working stock and pay your dues. Competing is good but you can't beat general experience in the lifestyle. Your dog doesn't have to be out there winning Open trials every weekend to be worthy of breeding (we'd have very few puppies then wouldn't we?!). But you have to do your homework to find out if he or she is worthy, regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted June 12, 2008 Report Share Posted June 12, 2008 Here's my criterion: by the time you are ready to be a responsible breeder, you will have responsible breeders suggesting that you breed. And even then, this is not the only reason to breed. Before then, you must have a good idea in your mind of the type of dog you'll be aiming to produce, and how to attain that goal, and how you will know whether you are on the path to that goal. All this knowledge is acquired in only one way, and I believe there is no substitute. Raising livestock, and training a dog from puppyhood to Open level work, yourself, and using that dog in your livestock operation. Competing is also preferable as it is the most straightforward way for a novice breeder to judge the success of their training and the abilities of the dog in question. Agreed. The only way to get there is to pay your dues, which is no quick, overnight project. It takes many years of hands-on work; no amount of reading can get you anywhere near this place. I would also add: By the time you have done as Becca suggests above, you will know lots of working BC handlers & trainers, so that when you consider breeding, those who are knowledgeable about working BCs will be clamoring for a pup from the planned litter. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted June 12, 2008 Report Share Posted June 12, 2008 By the time you have done as Becca suggests above, you will know lots of working BC handlers & trainers, so that when you consider breeding, those who are knowledgeable about working BCs will be clamoring for a pup from the planned litter. A Another related point. If you're out there competing and have made friends and mentors, then you have at your fingertips all the advice (voices of experience) you could possibly need when it comes time to make breeding decisions. Here's an example. I have a dog I've tried to breed a couple of times (unsuccessfully). My Plan B was to go out and find a dog who was bred the same way, and the owner of her sire and breeder of her dam happened to be at a trial I was at recently, so I spoke to him about the possibility of finding such a dog. Unfortunately, her sire, dam, and grandparents are all deceased, and most of the dogs that came out of those breedings went to farmers who did not perpetuate the lines. Bascially, Plan B was a dead end. The breeder suggested I talk to another "old timer" regarding how I might get back into those lines (or something very close) or perhaps get advice about what else might make a good cross for this dog. This second person stopped me as I was walking by and he was talking to a third person. We discussed my dog, her pedigree, and in the end things were still pretty much up in the air. But that third person then went and talked to two others who were familiar with the dogs in my dog's pedigree and knew of some related dogs who might make a good cross, and by putting their heads together, they came up with some ideas for me. I might yet get the breeding I hoped for out of this particular dog. Had I not been actively trialing I would never have had such a wonderful opportunity to access the collective wisdom of the working dog community to help me plan the breeding I wanted. I likely wouldn't have been able to do that on my own. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquarius89 Posted June 12, 2008 Report Share Posted June 12, 2008 When to Breed You don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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