If you start a dog on stock

[silhouettestable]

I hear that starting a dog on stock brings out their prey drive and changes the dog. What differences would I be likely to see in my dog(s) if I start them into training? Does the age they start make a difference, or any other factors (other training, exposure to other animals, etc.)?

[WyoBC]

From what I have been told around one year to two years is about when people start dogs. But I could be wrong on that. When I started Black Jack on stock it really didn't give him any prey drive. But he didn't have any to start with either. I did notice that he would stock rabbits and other small animals more. But he never tried to get them. It may have been because he was shy to start with, but it seemed to really boost his confidence. But be warned, it's very addictive!

[DTrain]

I am not so sure any changes take place as a result of training on stock other than learning. The dog may change as a result of naturity, just getting older. I have never trained an older dog, a dog beyond a couple of years. I am told it can be more difficult although I am not sure how. I train young dogs just starting out. As they age they change but I have never thought of them changing in any other way. If the dog wants to go to stock I would think they can be trained but every dog is different. I have never seen any negative changes in a dog as a result of traing on stock or,"bringing out their prey drive". Do I detect that you have heard some negative things. What have you been told or heard. I have heard some interresting things over the years ranging from the mundane to the wacky. This board is certainly the right place to get some answers. I am training my youngest dog now and he will change over the next couple of years. At the moment he seems to be experimenting with walk-ups on everything from robins to garbage cans or his ball. We have communicated about your dogs training on stock and moving to goose work. I am looking into getting my youngest into agility as well as stock work and perhaps other things. I would see no reason why your dogs could not do all they are now and stock and goose work. I have been told that if my dog is training on stock he will never be able to do agility because it requires a much higher skill level, he will not be able to be around other dogs, he will not be able to take the stress, he will not be able to handle the physical activity, he will want to herd the other dogs instead of doing his agility stuff and many other things. Since moving from the western country in the middle of nowhere to the eastern city life I have heard all kinds of things about BC's and herding etc. that I could never have imagined.

[silhouettestable]

I haven't heard anything negative about not being able to do any other sports or activities, just that my dogs would have a stronger prey drive and might want to harass my chickens and so on. That when first started training it will be so enticing they will want to be working all the time, and not content to just lay around anymore. Not that my dogs lay around all the time, but they do settle quite nicely when I want them to. I've been letting my chickens free range and the dogs are all fine with that, they watch them and the one dog does try to move them around some but there's no aggressive behaviour or anything, no attacking the chickens (or chasing horses). When I'm not out doing chores or puttering around outside the dogs don't have free access to my horses or chickens, they're only out there when I am. Otherwise they're either in the house with me or in the fenced backyard. The ones I'm thinking about starting are Rain and Storm, 15 month old brother and sister.

[painted_ponies]

I saw no difference at all in my dogs' innate prey drive (which was and remains pretty high), but once I could get them to down in the presence of stock I found I could also control them much more effectively in other situations than I could before.

 

ETA: Faith wanted me to add that the rooster at Julie's just happened to decide to end it all as she was walking by his coop. Honest.

[DTrain]

I have never had a case where a dog would bother stock on his own but I have seen it with a friends dog.

[Pearse]

I hear that starting a dog on stock brings out their prey drive and changes the dog. What differences would I be likely to see in my dog(s) if I start them into training? Does the age they start make a difference, or any other factors (other training, exposure to other animals, etc.)?

 

 

I haven't seen it make a difference. That said, I think it's irrelevant whether it increases their "prey drive" or not. If you decide to work your dog on livestock, you need to develop control over the dog; a rock solid down, and a recall. You should be able to stop the dog and call it off stock, and it should never ever be allowed to work stock (from inside or outside the fence) on its own. If you manage that, then that control applies to other lifeforms. You can teach the dog that it is not to chase horses, chickens, rabbits, squirrels etc..., and if it does you can call it off.

 

If you can't teach those things, the dog shouldn't be working stock and shouldn't be off a leash.

 

Pearse

[Shoofly]

What differences would I be likely to see in my dog(s) if I start them into training?

 

Mine get dirtier.

[Root Beer]

The changes that I saw in Speedy were all good ones. It helped him achieve additional mental and emotional balance, which is always a good thing in his case. That may have been a lot more evident in him than it would be in your average dog, but it definitely had a good impact on him mentally.

 

It did not change his prey drive. He doesn't really chase animals and he didn't start after starting on stock.

 

I didn't really see any difference in Dean at all when he was taking lessons. About the only thing that's different about him is that now he will notice sheep if he is near them. He didn't do that before.

[Shetlander]

Mine get dirtier.

 

Quinn, too. He also seemed very happy after each lesson. One afternoon, after learning and practicing the command "walk up" that day, I noticed him stalking towards the Lhasa a few times. But I told him to knock it off and he hasn't done it since. Otherwise, I can't say I saw much difference in day to day life.

[kajarrel]

This is just another urban (dog) legend, IMHO. If you repeat it enough, particularly if the people repeating it have no or only marginal experience with a working dog (or an agenda), it becomes "fact." (Not the "dirty" part - that's fact!)

 

I agree 100% with Pearse. A dog that's out of control around people, livestock and equipment is not a useful dog (or at least its usefulness is significantly reduced). I literally don't have time to constantly monitor and/or contain my dogs when we're out working. They need to learn and practice some basic ground "manners." (And I find that they WANT to be good and work WITH US, so this is fairly easy to achieve once they understand our expectations.) Consequently, I think most working dogs are generally well-behaved (meaning that their drives are controlled and channeled appropriately).

 

This "self-control" seems to extend to non-work activities too. Case in point, every time I bring my guys to the vets, they comment how different (calmer, better behaved, etc.) they are than other dogs (including other border collies). I don't think this is totally attributable to maturity because my guys range from 10 months to 13 years. Just the other day, a woman "met" my puppy and asked what breed she is - she wasn't confused by Sputnik's "looks," rather she was surprised how "calm" she is relative to her friend's border collie. Sputty's helping me move sheep every day . . .

 

Kim

[G. Festerling]

Mine became more mature, observant, assertive and more obedient as the training thought her to control her urges. Almost like an on the job proofing.

Now I will say, my current Border Collie female will be hell on the cats (only as far as chasing) right after we are done. Like the first cat she sees better get to moving. Not to hurt them. The second cat will be safe again.

[DTrain]

After reading the additional posts here I thought that perhaps there are a few changes you may want to see and can benefit from. The young guy I am working with now is doing all kinds of things I want to see change some good and some bad. He will come through his training a better dog. Working in public places with geese I require that my dogs down and stop and stay. He is certainly not there yet but he will be. Following round 1 of his training I will want to see more changes. He will just keep getting better and better. I would expect additional training for your dogs can do nothing less than make them a better dogs. I cannot see that any negative changes would come out of it. Kajarrel mentioned urban legends, this would make an interesting thread. I am sure we have all heard some strange stuff.

[Janba]

One of the things I have noticed with my young boy is that when he works regularly, he is a lot more content and a calmer dog to live with. My older boy doesn't see sheep any more - not a lot of instinct. I have found that the control they have learnt from sheep work does extend past the paddock and having a dog that will stop and wait on command no matter what is terrific and as kajarrel mentioned they very good at places like the vets.

[silhouettestable]

Mine get dirtier.

 

I don't know if that's possible. If you could ever see my mudpuppies after a good rain, during the spring melt or the fall rains The muddy prints tracking through my house at times is unbelievable, as is the amount of dirt that falls out of their coats and gets left on the floor when the mud dries. My house is becoming known as the dog house.

 

Thanks for all the replies, I wasn't really sure what to expect if I start my dog(s) into training.

[Shetlander]

The muddy prints tracking through my house at times is unbelievable, as is the amount of dirt that falls out of their coats and gets left on the floor when the mud dries.

 

I make Quinn go in his crate to shed dirt at times like those. When I let him out, he stands up and leaves all the dirt and sand behind on the crate floor. Except for this valuable service, I'd probably have dismantled the crate by now.

 

My house is becoming known as the dog house

 

My father once observed that my house had become "a sort of elaborate kennel." I told him that was an apt description.

[silhouettestable]

I make Quinn go in his crate to shed dirt at times like those. When I let him out, he stands up and leaves all the dirt and sand behind on the crate floor. Except for this valuable service, I'd probably have dismantled the crate by now.

 

Sounds good except I don't have space for 7 L-XL crates in my house! Yes, we're talking 28 lovely muddy paws I keep threatening my daughter though that if she doesn't keep her playroom cleaner I'm going in there with a garbage bag and removing all her stuff and turning it back into a dogs room. It used to be our spare bedroom, but the bed was removed to make room for crates when we used to have great danes. In later years we didn't need a dog room and instead of setting up a spare room we thought it would make a great playroom and help keep her bedroom tidier. Ha! Wrong! Now she just has 3 x the amount of stuff spread all over the place. I keep looking at it and thinking of how I could line crates around the walls and even double decker them if necessary. The only downside is that I'd have to buy more crates and the room is at the back of the the house so the dogs would still come running into the house and down the hall with muddy feet. What I'd really like to do is close in my back deck as a mudroom so I can let the dogs into there to dry off when coming in from the yard.

 

I'm yearning for the day I can pack away the crate that is wedged between my bed, dressers,

and closet. I can "just" squeeze between the bed and the crate to get at one dresser and wiggle my way around the end of it to reach the closet. Other dresser full of sweaters and sweatshirts is permanently closed unless I pull out the crate. So, of course I keep a laundry basket full of stuff on top of the crate. Maybe one day I'll smarten up and stop adopting more puppies every year and pack that sucker away