Overthrowing the alpha dog

[Jena73]

BC/Jack - 1 yr old in June

Alpha dog (Golden retriever) - 9 yrs old

 

Jack is constantly trying to over throw our 9 yr old GR. I don't know how to stop it. He drags him by the ears, his legs, anything he can get a hold of. If I don't break it up sometimes he's actually choking him. Once in a while the GR will take him down, but he's getting older even tho we know he has a lot of life left.

 

Jack just won't listen and is constantly going after him. It's almost like he's abusing him and I don't know how to stop it.

 

We also have a blue healer who's 4 and they're playmates. He never tries to overthrow him. Although they have gotten in a spat a few times.

 

What do I do?

[Jedismom]

My BC tries to establish dominance over my older spaniel/mix all the time. She is still the alpha dog and puts him down occasionally. But sometimes she allows him to put her down, usually when she's tired. When I see Jedi is harassing her too much and she is not putting a stop to it, then I put a stop to it. Your dog will have to respect you as the pack leader in order for that to work. I usually go with a strong "that'll do"... If that doesn't work, he gets put in his crate or in another room for a time-out. He learned fairly quickly that it's much better to listen to me than not to. Sometimes I'll re-direct with some play time if I feel like it, but the important thing is that he listen to you when you say quit.

 

Georgia

[Jena73]

He stops if I call his name, but then sometimes he goes right back to it. He does it with both my man and I that's why I feel like I'm at a loss.

 

He's so damn determined to take him down/out.

[Root Beer]

When we first adopted Dean, he was very "in your face" with Speedy. He would try to tackle him as Speedy played ball.

 

At first I left it to Speedy to deal with Dean on his own, but it became obvious quickly that Dean didn't respond to Speedy's very pointed "get out of my face" warnings. At that point I took it upon myself to teach Dean to play appropriately.

 

Any time Dean got into Speedy's face inappropriately, I snapped a leash on him with a very neutral demeanor and put him in the bedroom and closed the door. He stayed in there by himself for about 5 minutes. This wasn't aversive for him - he loves the bedroom - but he learned quickly that the fun of his choice stopped when he played with Speedy inappropriately.

 

Ironically, Speedy and Dean are now partners in crime and Dean has been getting on Sammie's nerves. Recently Dean started to posture and try to control Sammie was I was preparing meals. So, I started to put Dean in a down-stay as I prepared meals. When he figured out that the stalking behavior resulted in him being in a down stay while Sammie got to roam freely, he cut that right out.

[DTrain]

He stops if I call his name, but then sometimes he goes right back to it. He does it with both my man and I that's why I feel like I'm at a loss.

 

He's so damn determined to take him down/out.

 

Jena, you are the dominant dog in the pack. Seperate the dogs when they cross the line. I have a father and son. They wrestle often. The kid thinks he is getting somewhere. I will frequently give them a that'll do and a down and stop things just to make sure they don't forget who I am. Take Over.

[Jedismom]

He stops if I call his name, but then sometimes he goes right back to it. He does it with both my man and I that's why I feel like I'm at a loss.

 

He's so damn determined to take him down/out.

 

 

I don't know if this is what you actually do, but that's what your post says so I'll go with it. Your dog's name does not mean (or should not mean) "no" or "stop". It's just his name. It should only be used in a positive way, just to get him to look at you or come to you. If I just called my dog's name he would look at me or come to me but then would have no idea why I called him unless I followed it up with what I use to mean "no". I use "Ahh..Hey...or that'll do..depending on the circumstance. Consistency is very important.

 

Hope this helps

[Laurae]

This is sort of off on a tangent, but the name thing can be really subtle.

I've had Sophie and Taz since puppyhood. I never consciously trained this or even realized I was doing it, but I trained them to come to me when I called their names. They recall to their names.

I got Craig last year, when he was nearly nine. I often had a difficult time getting him to come to me, which was really frustrating, since you'd think as a trained stockdog his recall would be perfect. It puzzled his previous owner as well, since he always came right to her when she called him.

One day not very long ago, I was walking with Taz, Craig, Craig's previous owner, and one of her dogs. We were in a field and Craig was straying a bit further than I wanted him to, so I called his name for him to come back to me.

"Craig." He turned and looked at me, but didn't come any closer.

"Craig!" I repeated. Still nothing.

"CRAIG!!" I yelled in annoyed frustration.

My friend looked at me, with understanding spreading across her face. "Why don't you say 'that'll do' to him?" she asked.

I looked at her in puzzlement. "I always tell him that'll do!"

She shook her head. "No, you often don't. You didn't just now. And when you don't say it, he doesn't come. Try again and tell him that'll do."

So I did. And he about faced and ran back to me immediately.

Craig had been trained to recall to a command, not to his name. I can't believe I had him for so long without realizing this. His recall for me is now absolutely 100%. And I am an idiot—how bad do I feel that I spent all that time yelling his name in such an annoyed tone of voice when he had no idea why I was getting angry...

[Shetlander]

What do I do?

 

I used to be a believer in letting dogs sort things out for themselves but finally realized I only had a 50% success rate with that approach. The successes were nice, but the failures had some spectacularly negative consequences. So I no longer allow my dogs to jockey much for position. I especially do not allow them to harass or bully or think they get to control any of the other dogs in any way. It is now Zero Tolerance at my house. I'm in charge and there is absolutely no opening for a number 2 spot.

 

If I didn't take this hard line approach, things would be very ugly between Quinn and the Lhasa. Things aren't especially pretty as it stands (they are very poor mix and last year I thought I would need to rehome one of them), but for the most part they tolerate each other. However, I need to always keep a close an eye on their interactions and quickly discipline one or both if things start to go south. A couple of weeks ago, they got into a spat for the first time in months. I had just put them in the car several seconds earlier and the two meatheads must have been arguing over a stray piece of kibble. They broke apart as soon as I yelled and by the time I got the back door opened, Quinn was back in the front seat. I wasn't thrilled to see tufts of Chili's fur floating towards me, but after I got over being angry, I was very happy that Quinn inhibited his bite because Chili didn't have so much as a tiny scrape. The size difference between them scares me.

 

For your situation, I would worry that things could get increasingly unstable in your pack with Jack thinking he has the right to push your Golden around. There is a helpful little booklet called Feeling Outnumbered about living with multiple dogs. You can check it out at Amazon.

 

Feeling Outnumbered description at Amazon

 

You might find some good advice there on how to take more control and provide the boundaries I'd say Jack needs and the safety your Golden deserves. I don't mind if my dogs play wrestle if they can do so safely and both dogs find it fun. However, that doesn't sound like what you are describing. I strongly recommend you establish a New World Order that doesn't include Jack having quite as much say as he thinks he does now regarding the Golden.

[Jena73]

Some great advice here - thank you!

 

They wrestle but Jack is getting too aggressive and hurtful - so that's why I posted as it worries me. I want him to be a good doggie but he's so naughty sometimes!

 

I didn't realize when I was just saying his name it was to get his attention but not following it up with something left him not knowing what to do.

 

Now if I see him going at our older dog I say firmly "Jack NO" and he seems to be responding to this. Now if he'll just stop trying to heard me I'll be better off...he's almost a year old (we've only had him for 6 months from a shelter) so I think a lot of this takes time.

[Shetlander]

Jack's at an age known for some obnoxious, bratty and challenging behaviors. I'm sure if you keep on top of him, he'll learn to leave the old boy alone or else play nice. Quinn has never seemed to learn how big and strong he is next to my dogs (or else he likes being rough) and consequently, he plays only a little bit with them. And I need to supervise so things don't suddenly go South. I usually end up intervening -- either putting Quinn in a down, giving him a verbal reminder or ending the game. But now that Quinn's matured, his preferred play is with humans, so it's all good.

[Jena73]

Jack's at an age known for some obnoxious, bratty and challenging behaviors. I'm sure if you keep on top of him, he'll learn to leave the old boy alone or else play nice. Quinn has never seemed to learn how big and strong he is next to my dogs (or else he likes being rough) and consequently, he plays only a little bit with them. And I need to supervise so things don't suddenly go South. I usually end up intervening -- either putting Quinn in a down, giving him a verbal reminder or ending the game. But now that Quinn's matured, his preferred play is with humans, so it's all good.

 

The only time I don't beak up the wrestling is when the GR takes Jack down - and once in a while he does. I've seen him practically toss him in the air, then hold him down by putting Jack's whole head in his mouth. Maybe I'm wrong for letting it go, but seeing him be put in his place that he's not the alpha dog (by the one he's trying to overthrow and has 40lbs on him) seems like the right thing.

 

Sometimes the pack has to work things out for themselves. Plus it makes me laugh cuz he's a little turdling and deserves it.