End behaviour for A-Frame

[berocca]

Cody used to do a running contact because that was all I knew and nobody told me there were better options. 9/10 times he would hit the contact but I wanted something better. He died before I realised there were actually better options.

 

I heard about 2 on 2 off just before I started training Delta and Charlie so I set about doing the foundation work with them. Charlie took to it immediately (much to my surprise, he doesn't have much going on upstairs) but Delta just wanted to lie down on the target and even the best timed clicks wouldn't stop it. One night a different trainer came over to me and suggested doing 4 on the floor with her as she insisted on lying down at the end. I wasn't entirely sure as I had heard bad reports about it, but I started doing the foundation work for that and she took to it really well. We have now hit the wall in terms of her training though. She has generalised the behaviour to be "find a patch of grass somewhere near the end of the contact and lie down" which means she is just randomly lying down and sometimes not even facing the right direction. It hs also thrown her teeter behaviour out the window as instead of running to the end, dropping, and riding it down; she is running to the end, hanging on for dear life, then lying on the grass next to it.

 

I can go back to basics and retrain it but Im not sure I want to. I can see me having to retrain it every 6mnths and I can see Delta getting really frustrated with it as well. You can see her thinking "I lay down on the grass like I am supposed to, what was wrong with that?" Unfortunately there is no way to explain to her that this bit of grass is better than that bit over there.

 

Last Friday she started offering me a 2 on 2 off and did the same thing on Monday. I would really like to do a 2 on 2 off with her as I feel it is a much more definite behaviour and tells her exactly where she should be in relation to the contact. Im hoping to maybe bypass the target and work the nose touch in after she is confident with the position or we will go back to square 1. Charlie's nose touches rarely connected with the target itself, he was simply bobbing his head up and down so I removed it and left him bobbing. If I add it for Delta she will lie down on it again, so Im hoping I can get her in position and shape the head bob from there if I need it.

 

Now, I am left with the same dilemma I have for Charlie now that I am training him again- what do I do about the A-Frame? I have heard so many people talking about how bad it is for them to do a 2o2o on the AFrame as it is a steep angle and puts alot of pressure on their shoulders. I already worry about their shoulders as they do flyball and I don't want to be putting extra pressure on them. I have also spoken to people who have done it with their dogs for years and have no problems with it.

 

Alot of people seem to be going for a running contact but Im not sure I have the time to really train that well and I would rather have one that involves them stopping at the end to allow me to adjust my position if need be.

 

Someone told me they have their dog sit on the end but that seems kinda awkward to me, I would rather have head down and bum up. The only other thing I can think of is to get them to lie down on the end, 2 feet off if they prefer.

 

Pretty much just after some ideas.

[diane allen]

Ha - I KNEW from your title that you either had to be "down under" or "over the big pond." "Behaviour" in American is "behavior." Taa daa. Subject, nonetheless, is a good 'un. Seems like you have a very good understanding of what you want, and how to train it.

 

I would love to have a running contact - the winning dogs from now on will have it. However, I mostly train by myself, and just couldn't imagine ever being so good in my "marking" (click or whatever) the correct behavior, as well as watching the footwork, to actually train it. We'll see!

 

In any case, I agree that 2o/2o CAN be hard on shoulders. However, I think it depends a LOT on the dog. Does your dog slam down on the downside? (Teaching a "drive" to a target can cause that effect...) Or does he simply work his way down the A-frame (hopefully quickly!), to a nice comfortable stopping point?

 

My youngster seems to have a nice 'lay back' at the bottom - I was teaching a board on the ground, and to get his treat, he really had to shift his weight backwards. Being a BC, of course, he was able to do this quite nicely! If I actually had to "teach" it - I'm not sure I'd know how to do that. But he does, and it results in a nice reasonable position at the bottom (of the A-frame and dogwalk; he has a "stop with all four on the teeter")>

 

IMHO, I see a lot more impact from dogs, especially border collies, who slam into the UP side. Whether they stop at the bottom on the other side is almost irrelevant - the majority of the impact has been felt on the up side.

 

Never having tried to teach a 'four on the floor' - not sure what to suggest there.

 

The other thing I like about the 2o/2o is....it doesn't make the judge think too hard! :-))

 

Other thoughts?

 

diane

[berocca]

Ha - I KNEW from your title that you either had to be "down under" or "over the big pond." "Behaviour" in American is "behavior." Taa daa. Subject, nonetheless, is a good 'un. Seems like you have a very good understanding of what you want, and how to train it.

 

I would love to have a running contact - the winning dogs from now on will have it. However, I mostly train by myself, and just couldn't imagine ever being so good in my "marking" (click or whatever) the correct behavior, as well as watching the footwork, to actually train it. We'll see!

 

In any case, I agree that 2o/2o CAN be hard on shoulders. However, I think it depends a LOT on the dog. Does your dog slam down on the downside? (Teaching a "drive" to a target can cause that effect...) Or does he simply work his way down the A-frame (hopefully quickly!), to a nice comfortable stopping point?

 

My youngster seems to have a nice 'lay back' at the bottom - I was teaching a board on the ground, and to get his treat, he really had to shift his weight backwards. Being a BC, of course, he was able to do this quite nicely! If I actually had to "teach" it - I'm not sure I'd know how to do that. But he does, and it results in a nice reasonable position at the bottom (of the A-frame and dogwalk; he has a "stop with all four on the teeter")>

 

IMHO, I see a lot more impact from dogs, especially border collies, who slam into the UP side. Whether they stop at the bottom on the other side is almost irrelevant - the majority of the impact has been felt on the up side.

 

Never having tried to teach a 'four on the floor' - not sure what to suggest there.

 

The other thing I like about the 2o/2o is....it doesn't make the judge think too hard! :-))

 

Other thoughts?

 

diane

 

Either that or Im really bad at spelling lol.

 

The position that Delta was offering the other night was a good one actually, it was like a play bow, almost completely lying down on the A-Frame with her front feet only just on the grass. She was almost crawling down the last metre to get into position. Charlie so far seems to be ok aswell, he gets his shoulders down for the nose touches. I only started training him again 3 weeks ago (he did a 6 week beginner course 12mnths ago then started flyball) so I haven't actually put the running over the obstacle and the end behaviour together yet. They are still separate things at the moment.

 

I just worry that these positions will become sloppy once the dogs know what they are doing or that confidence will lead to them waiting till the last minute and slamming on the brakes.

 

There was an article in clean run this month about teaching a running A-Frame which I wouldn't mind trying. I just don't know that I have the time to do it properly and I imagine it could be disastrous the training is rushed or not done correctly.

[Pat W.]

My youngster Whim is a turbo pup I need him to stop on the contacts, so I was shooting for 2o2o but he is offering a ORT (one rear toe) natually so Im accepting it. Running contacts are wonderful things but unless you are very careful they can degrade quickly. There was another thread on running contacts on here Im sure that if you did a search you

could find it. I have seen the 4 on the floor used but am not really impressed by it, I would stick w/ the 2o2o and if nessicary drop you equipment down to help your girl understand what your lookin for, you might even consider the ORT.

[berocca]

Should have mentioned that I would be happy with ORT. Its still definite enough for the dog to understand and kinda encompasses the 2o2o. I like that ORT focuses on the rear legs more than the front.

 

I sat down the other night and did the whole "how do my dog and I differ in our understanding of this behaviour" and I realised that I was left with:

 

Me: Dog must crawl through contact area so it can lie down on the grass directly in front of the contact.

Delta: I need to run/jump off the end and lie down where I land.

 

It became clear to me that she really didn't understand what I expected and I cannot work out any way of making it clearer in her mind. I then found out that Ann Croft (the original 4 on the floor person) had to retrain her dog and that kinda pushed me to consider retraining Delta. She is only 18mnths now and is a few months off trialling so I would rather change it now than persist with what I am doing and have to change it in the future once she is trialling.

[Pat W.]

I would definately look at other criteria if the person that created the criteria had to retrain after a period of time. 2o2o is a nice fall back, I like the ORT less impact on shoulders, allows the dog to stretch out more, less strain on neck and back. So far he's only offering it on the Aframe, but I am going to to encourage it on the Dogwalk too. With the teeter instead of running to the end and riding it down to have the end slam into the ground transmitting the shock through the shoulders, my guy is pausing at the piviot point and then running to the end, 2o2o style

[Root Beer]

I sort of taught Maddie a 2 on 2 off, but now she kind of does a "trotting contact"!!! There's no such thing, really, but it's her natural style and she goes right to the bottom consistently.

 

I'm still on the fence with Dean, and I need to decide soon! I've done some foundation work for a 2 on 2 off with him with a board at home. He does a 2 on 2 off on the dogwalk, but on the A Frame, he has also been doing the "trotting contact"!! He's going to be fast, though, and he'll be the type to fly off. I seriously need to teach him a specific A Frame contact.

 

He kind of does a natural 1 rear toe on. I might go with that.

[Alaska]

No advice for what contact behavior you should choose for your dogs, but a few related comments.

 

1. I trial in a venue with a low aframe (NADAC), which somewhat reduces the worry about impact at the bottom.

 

2. I was just reading a discussion of running contacts somewhere, and someone mentioned that teaching a running contact can be hard on the dog because of the need for huge numbers of repetitions of running the whole aframe, whereas if you train a stopped contact much of your training can involve only the end behavior, and in any case far fewer reps are needed during the training phase. I believe this thought was attributed to Susan Garrett, though it was umpteenth-hand by the time I read it.

 

3. The thing that stuck out to me in your original post is that it really sounds like you are not splitting your criteria anywhere near fine enough when you train. Examples:

 

Delta just wanted to lie down on the target and even the best timed clicks wouldn't stop it

It's not just a matter of timing. How many steps did you break this down into? Did you start with the target in your hand? If so, how could she be lying down on it? Did you go from target-in-hand directly to target-on-ground? There can be a LOT of intermediate steps there. Were you sure to get an 80% success rate before raising the criteria (a tiny bit) each time? Did you lower the critera (a lot) if your success rate deteriorated?

 

she is just randomly lying down and sometimes not even facing the right direction

Are you rewarding this? If not, why is she repeating it?

 

It sounds to me like you need a plan for fixing each piece of this problem in turn, instead of throwing up your hands and saying "the whole behavior is wrong". Facing forward is one piece of the problem, and a relatively easy one to fix. Forget your other criteria for now (and get away from the equipment - teach the behavior you want with no equipment around, then move it back onto the obstacle after you're happy with it), and just teach her to face ahead, always, when she hits the ground. Don't worry about which piece of grass, just what direction she's facing. And raise criteria slowly. First get the down on the target, then a moving down to the target, then down facing anywhere that isn't backwards (relative to the direction of her motion toward the target), then anywhere within a 160 degree arc, then 140 degree arc, etc until she is always facing within 10 degrees (or whatever you want your final behavior to be) of forward. Don't raise criteria until you get 80% success, and drop back if it deteriorates. Most important is not to add other criteria (e.g. a specific location, equipment performance) until you get the foundation behavior consistent.

 

Unfortunately there is no way to explain to her that this bit of grass is better than that bit over there.

It's hard for me to imagine why you can't do that. Isn't that what the target is for? Set appropriate criteria (at a level she can quickly reach 80% success - otherwise you've made it too hard), reward differentially (only reward performances that meet your current criteria - don't cheat), and keep the rate of reward high high high (happens automatically if you set your criteria appropriately). If you do that, it should be impossible to teach her to chose the wrong bit of grass, since the right bit will be easy to choose, and oh so rewarding.

 

Im hoping to maybe bypass the target and work the nose touch in after she is confident with the position or we will go back to square 1. Charlie's nose touches rarely connected with the target itself, he was simply bobbing his head up and down so I removed it and left him bobbing

This is not meant as a personal attack, but hey, can you see why your dogs might be having a hard time learning when you are constantly thinking about how to take shortcuts ("bypass the target") and accept whatever behavior they try even when it wasn't what you were looking for ("he was simply bobbing his head up and down...so I left him bobbing")? My guess is they really don't have a very clear idea what you want them to do, because (from their perspective) your directions aren't very consistent and they change without warning. That can lead to superstitious behavior, like Delta's "just plop down anywhere because it seems to work sometimes."

 

My suggestion is that you first take some time to think about how you can improve your skill as a trainer. There is merit to considering what contact behavior you want for your dog, but there isn't really a right answer, just pros and cons of each approach. I think you should just pick one and stick with it, then think about how you could do a more effective job of training the behavior you choose. Most people who've been successful in agility for a long time, with many dogs and many students, seem to feel that 2o2o is the most straightforward to teach and maintain, so that's what I would generally choose for a relatively inexperienced trainer and a dog starting from scratch, but from what you wrote I don't think it matters near as much what you choose as that you make a committment to that choice and make it clear to the dog what the choice is. Unless you do that, choosing a different contact behavior is NOT going to help (IMHO).

 

Please take this as it is intended, as a helpful suggestion. I am NOT saying you aren't a good trainer, just trying to help you see how you could become an even better one. The quotes above were chosen with that in mind, not to pick on your interesting and detailed post.

[Alaska]

The rest of you guys are killing me. You're among the people I look to for good advice!

 

My youngster seems to have a nice 'lay back' at the bottom - I was teaching a board on the ground, and to get his treat, he really had to shift his weight backwards. Being a BC, of course, he was able to do this quite nicely! If I actually had to "teach" it - I'm not sure I'd know how to do that.

That's what the nose touch is for - it forces the dog to unweight the front end. Otherwise why do a nose touch?

 

I was shooting for 2o2o but he is offering a ORT (one rear toe) natually so Im accepting it.

Surely you mean that you made the decison to change your criteria??? (not that you are just accepting a behavior that doesn't meet your chosen criteria)

 

I sort of taught Maddie a 2 on 2 off, but now she kind of does a "trotting contact"!!!

 

[Dean]does a 2 on 2 off on the dogwalk, but on the A Frame, he has also been doing the "trotting contact"!! ...He kind of does a natural 1 rear toe on. I might go with that.

Kristine, you are the very last person in the world I would expect to let the dog set their own training goal!

 

I know, I know, I'm kind of taking everyones' words out of context, but really, I think it helps our dogs if we always remember to both think and speak clearly about our training plans, rather than allowing our natural human sloppiness...oops, I mean creativity...to take over.

[berocca]

Ok, I will try to address all the questions, hopefully I don't forget any as Im in a rush.

 

LYING ON THE TARGET

 

The nose touch was still happening, she would just touch it with her nose and then lie down with her paws on either side as she continued to touch it. It was very baby steps from touching in my hand to touching on the ground but whenever possible she would lie down and touch it from there. We went over and over it with the same results and thats when another trainer started talking to me about letting her drop so I followed their advice. We really didn't get very far at all with the training, certainly no where near feet position or anything.

 

FACING THE WRONG DIRECTION

 

This is the behaviour I have been working on recently. I have gone back to having the treat bag in front of her (not toy motivated at all) so she is looking towards it and can be released to it afterwards. I wanted to fix that before I focussed on anything else. She was getting much better at it again, I just don't want to have to keep doing that with her every couple of months. It's a problem right across the board with us at the moment, she has started looking to me for cues at times when she never used to before. She has always been an independent weaver but the last 4 weeks (the same night the contact behaviour died) she has started looking to me in the middle of her weaves and popping out of them. I must be doing something different or being really inconsistent with my body language all of a sudden, but nobody has been able to pinpoint anything I am doing different to normal. Im just really working on what messages I am sending to her and how she is understanding each of them.

 

LYING RANDOMLY

 

She has her carpet pieces to lie on which tell her where to go. A few weeks ago the trainers wanted me to get rid of it which meant she would still lie down, just not exactly where I wanted her to be. It was clear that she didn't understand exactly where the drop was supposed to happen and I started using the target mat again. I had planned on cutting it smaller and smaller until it could be removed every few turns, instead of simply taking it away. Apparently it was wasting too much time having to put them out and pull them every time we ran and people were getting impatient so I had to get rid of them...

 

CHARLIE'S BOBBING

 

Charlie had done a lot of nose touch work in the past. If I told him to 'go touch' he got his back legs up on the contact and continually touched the ground with his nose. Why would I make sure he was always doing it on the target if I wanted to faze it out anyway? He was doing everything I wanted him to do.

 

 

I really am interested in hearing the pros and cons of each one. I didn't research enough with 4 on the floor, just accepted it as a good method because someone told me it was. I watched DVDs and read articles on how to teach it without actually researching possibly problems I could face and how to correct them as they appear. After doing alot more research on it and speaking to knowledgeable people in the agility world I am really wishing I had looked at pros and cons before I started. If I had, I would have continued with the 2o2o w/ nose touch (which is my preferred method). I would like to continue the nose touch as it forces them to shift their weight into their back half, however, Delta at the moment is getting into a nice position all on her own. So do I add a nose touch or just keep the rewards coming for her position and not reward if she happens to do it too upright?

[Root Beer]

Kristine, you are the very last person in the world I would expect to let the dog set their own training goal!

 

LOL!! It does sound that way, but really it's more of a case of setting my goal based on what is going to be most comfortable and safe for my dog.

 

If I were committed to the 2 on 2 off contact, I would definitely train to it as carefully as I train everything else. But I'm not 100% convinced that it really is the safest considering the wear and tear on the dog's shoulders over time.

 

In Maddie's case, I usually go with what works. She's pretty bull headed - I've been using a lot of the tips in the Clean Run articles on "When Pigs Fly" with her! She really is that kind of dog.

 

In Dean's case, I simply haven't made up my mind what will be easiest on his body over time. He is going to be doing contacts for many years. The fact that he offers a natural "One Rear Toe On" indicates to me that this stance at the bottom of the contact feels comfortable and natural to him. So, if I go with that, it's not so much because I'm letting him set my training goal, but because I feel that his natural tendancy could be an indication of what would be easiest on him, physically, over time.

 

I have taken that into account with Maddie's "Trotting Contact", as well. It's very natural to her and I feel it is easiest on her 7 year old body.

 

So, I'm not really letting the dogs set the goals. The goal is, after all, to condition a consistent, safe contact behavior.

 

At the same time, I do take my dog's well being into account when I train anything, so I do look for feedback and input from the dog as I train and I often modify training exercises to make things more comfortable or safe for the dog.

[mum24dog]

really it's more of a case of setting my goal based on what is going to be most comfortable and safe for my dog.

 

If I were committed to the 2 on 2 off contact, I would definitely train to it as carefully as I train everything else. But I'm not 100% convinced that it really is the safest considering the wear and tear on the dog's shoulders over time.

 

In Maddie's case, I usually go with what works.

 

 

I do take my dog's well being into account when I train anything, so I do look for feedback and input from the dog as I train and I often modify training exercises to make things more comfortable or safe for the dog.

 

I agree with that approach, and none of the following is aimed at you as we are obviously taking the same basic line.

As a basic premise, I think 2o2o has a lot going for it, but it isn't for all dogs.

Running contacts are all well and good (and fashionable in some circles on this side of the pond), but most people don't have the patience to train them correctly and they're harder to fix if they go wrong.

2o2o can be turned into a running contact but the reverse isn't true, and 2o2o can give you control when you need it, especially with the more wayward dogs.

2o2o is so much easier for dog and novice handler to understand.

Big or heavy dogs, though, probably not the best idea, either from a safety or performance POV. It can be hard for them to get acceleration from a static position.

Targetting - yes, but not always necessary. Tall dogs can find a nose touch awkward. (Having said that, a friend has an extremely tall and powerful BC that she has retaught very successfully with a target, so never say never).

4o - sometimes, especially with small collies. Can work with big dogs too to avoid shoulder strain, although the acceleration problem remains.

 

In the past I've made every mistake going, but I've learnt from that.

 

With our own dogs, we have a variety of methods.

 

Ross (9 year old collie mix) and Eddie (5yr old long legged JRT) have been taught by the "hit and miss" method coupled with bad timing, with predictable results. Too late for Ross but Eddie is being retaught using 2o2o with a view to getting running contacts eventually.

 

Hazel (nearly 8 year old 16 inch mix) - initially taught badly but at the age of 6 refined for herself her habit of hurdling the apex of the A frame into a pretty good and very reliable running contact. The dog walk followed (self taught again) but is unfortunately only reliable at speed and sometimes course design slows her down too much and she starts to bounce. Just one of those things and we leave her to it at her age as she obviously finds it comfortable, even though it lost her a Championship ticket a month ago.

 

Cedar (4 yr old hound mix) and Kye (2 yr old BC) are both tall and leggy and have been taught 2o2o without targetting.

With both I taught a cantilevered down position to shift the weight from the shoulders backwards and transferred it to the end contact position, initially at a very shallow angle. At an early stage you obviously need the most repetitions so the angle is important as a safety aspect.

 

Kye is still expected to do it in competition and it is invaluable in maintaining control as he is very headstrong. His contacts are excellent, reliable and fast.

 

Cedar, on the other hand, is one of those dogs that can't accelerate, and he also need his confidence building, so we have mostly dropped to 2o2o criterion. It was still the right way to train him, though, as he can still hit the contacts reliably. Any other method and his long stride would probably have encouraged him to jump off.

 

So look at your dog, get to know it and choose your method. Having done so, stick to it and don't keep changing every few weeks/months.

 

And don't overtrain anything. Whatever you are training, too much repetition will cause wear and tear somewhere.

Your dog's long term well being is far more important than any agility ambitions you may have.

 

Pam

[3dogslater]

Ha - I KNEW from your title that you either had to be "down under" or "over the big pond." "Behaviour" in American is "behavior."

She could have been "up North"...behaviour is also Canadian

 

IMO, I would stop training your contacts until you decide what method you want to use. It's not fair to your dogs to keep changing your mind and training bits and pieces and not giving them a consistent picture for what you want them to do. There are pros and cons to each method and people running at the world level using each method so it's not like any one method is best.

 

Four on the floor - You need to train your dog to run and hit it her spot away from equipment, then transition that to the equipment. Until she can run, hit her target and lie down in the direction she was facing there's no point in adding in equipment.

 

Delta just wanted to lie down on the target and even the best timed clicks wouldn't stop it.

Kim Collins has a book out - From the Ground Up that covers target training in tiny steps, including how to work with a dog who insists on lying down. It's a combination of setting your criteria, breaking it into tiny pieces, keeping reinforcement high and the timing and placement of rewards.

 

I can go back to basics and retrain it but Im not sure I want to.

 

You will need to go back to basics and train one method no matter what you choose. If you've done your foundation training, stick to your criteria when you start sequencing and after you start trialing, you won't need to retrain every six months.

 

Unfortunately there is no way to explain to her that this bit of grass is better than that bit over there.

That's like saying there is no way of explaining to a dog why they should always enter weave poles from the right instead of the left. Your dog doesn't understand the behaviour - if this is the method you want to use, you need to break it down and teach her the foundation steps before you progress.

 

One weakness I've seen with the four on the floor is people tend to do early releases all the time in trials and the dog quickly learns that they don't actually have to lie down. Handlers let criteria slide and the dog starts to self-release and eventually not stop at all. There is a huge difference between quick release (releasing the dog a split second after they do the behaviour) and early release (releasing the dog before they reach their contact position, even if they touch the yellow).

 

I would really like to do a 2 on 2 off with her as I feel it is a much more definite behaviour and tells her exactly where she should be in relation to the contact.

 

Then start at the very beginning. Train her to nose touch the target without laying down. Teach her a 2o/2o nose-touch on a plank with a target, teach her a 2o/2o nose-touch on a plank without the target. Backchain her 2o/2o nose-touch on each piece of contact equipment. Don't sequence until she has a reliable 2o/2o nose-touch as a recall, a send and a run with on your right and left sides, and with lateral distance.

 

Im hoping to maybe bypass the target and work the nose touch in after she is confident with the position or we will go back to square 1.

 

At the risk of being rude, I don't think you understand the whole purpose of the nose touch in relation to the 2o/2o. The nose touch forces the dog to keep their head lowered, their spine straight and their weight shifted backwards. It is key to the position, not something to add in later if you feel like it.

 

The nose touch is the foundation of the 2o/2o behaviour. While the dog needs hind end awareness, it is primarily a front end behaviour (unlike one rear toe on, which is primarily a rear end behaviour).

 

Alot of people seem to be going for a running contact but Im not sure I have the time to really train that well

IMO, you are already having problems with criteria for a stopped contact which is a much clearer behaviour for the dog than a running contact. You need access to full sized pieces of equipment to be able to train running contacts and it involves many. many repetitions no matter who's method you choose. Sylvia Trkman estimates that it takes six months of *daily* practice to get a reliable running contact.

 

To give you an idea of the type of consistency you need, check out Daisy Peel's youtube diary of teaching her new dog Solar. Her older dog Jester has stopped contacts and won his class at the AKC Nationals as a three year old dog and made the world team.

http://www.youtube.com/user/cflyrun

 

I taught contacts as a 2o/2o with a nose touch to a 30" tall dog and despite his size, Chester has no issue accelerating off his contacts. I did teach that as a separate behaviour so that he will drive from a stay (start line, table or contact). I do have a contact problem with him because I let my criteria go in trials - he is almost perfect in practice.

 

Sophie has a psudo-running contact. If I say nothing, she runs, if I give her a contact command she stops in her 2o/2o. Initially trained as a 2o/2o with a nose touch, she will run down the entire contact without leaping and has missed two "running" contacts in trials in the past three years - one when I said "come" at the peak of the frame, another when I flipped her into the tunnel from the middle of the downramp of the dogwalk.

 

My 20" leggy BCish dog has a 2o/2o with nose touch for the teeter and the walk, although he's still a puppy in training at 20 months old. I have toyed with the idea of a running frame but don't have access to the equipment to train this properly. I do like Rachel Saunders box method but I'm not confident that the dog has an absolute understanding of their criteria.

[3dogslater]

I think you should just pick one and stick with it, then think about how you could do a more effective job of training the behavior you choose...I don't think it matters near as much what you choose as that you make a committment to that choice and make it clear to the dog what the choice is. Unless you do that, choosing a different contact behavior is NOT going to help (IMHO).

 

Ditto what Alaska said! A plan for training whatever behaviour you choose, along with clear and consistent criteria, progressing as the dog understands each step will give you great contacts no matter which method you follow.

 

Most people who've been successful in agility for a long time, with many dogs and many students, seem to feel that 2o2o is the most straightforward to teach and maintain, so that's what I would generally choose for a relatively inexperienced trainer and a dog starting from scratch.

 

There are some fantastic, world class dogs with stopped contacts so it doesn't mean you can't win with 2o/20 or orto if that's your goal.

[Pat W.]

QUOTE(Pat W. @ May 29 2008, 04:06 AM)

I was shooting for 2o2o but he is offering a ORT (one rear toe) natually so Im accepting it.

 

Surely you mean that you made the decison to change your criteria??? (not that you are just accepting a behavior that doesn't meet your chosen criteria)

____________________

 

Nope havent changed it at all at this point, if the ORT happens more frequently, if he is far more comfortable offering it than the 2o2o then I will decide which suits best for his health and safety. Infact Rootbeer said it best:

 

Quote -In Dean's case, I simply haven't made up my mind what will be easiest on his body over time. He is going to be doing contacts for many years. The fact that he offers a natural "One Rear Toe On" indicates to me that this stance at the bottom of the contact feels comfortable and natural to him. So, if I go with that, it's not so much because I'm letting him set my training goal, but because I feel that his natural tendancy could be an indication of what would be easiest on him, physically, over time.

[Pat W.]

Ok, I will try to address all the questions, hopefully I don't forget any as Im in a rush.

 

LYING ON THE TARGET

 

The nose touch was still happening, she would just touch it with her nose and then lie down with her paws on either side as she continued to touch it. It was very baby steps from touching in my hand to touching on the ground but whenever possible she would lie down and touch it from there. We went over and over it with the same results and thats when another trainer started talking to me about letting her drop so I followed their advice. We really didn't get very far at all with the training, certainly no where near feet position or anything.

Whim did this at first when I would send him to his target, he would drive to the target touch then lie down then continue to touch. The only place this translated to on equipment was the teeter and that was due

to movement. What I did to correct it on the ground was reward only when standing, even if I had to put him back in the standing position

 

LYING RANDOMLY

 

She has her carpet pieces to lie on which tell her where to go. A few weeks ago the trainers wanted me to get rid of it which meant she would still lie down, just not exactly where I wanted her to be. It was clear that she didn't understand exactly where the drop was supposed to happen and I started using the target mat again. I had planned on cutting it smaller and smaller until it could be removed every few turns, instead of simply taking it away. Apparently it was wasting too much time having to put them out and pull them every time we ran and people were getting impatient so I had to get rid of them... I would have insisted that I be able to phase the carpet out, you are paying your money to train also, I think the sudden disappearance of the carpet threw her for a loop. If the other dogs are advanced enough they should be able to ignore a piece of carpet on the ground. Its not that hard to put in/take out a target big or small

 

CHARLIE'S BOBBING

 

Charlie had done a lot of nose touch work in the past. If I told him to 'go touch' he got his back legs up on the contact and continually touched the ground with his nose. Why would I make sure he was always doing it on the target if I wanted to faze it out anyway? He was doing everything I wanted him to do.

I really am interested in hearing the pros and cons of each one. I didn't research enough with 4 on the floor, just accepted it as a good method because someone told me it was. I watched DVDs and read articles on how to teach it without actually researching possibly problems I could face and how to correct them as they appear. After doing alot more research on it and speaking to knowledgeable people in the agility world I am really wishing I had looked at pros and cons before I started. If I had, I would have continued with the 2o2o w/ nose touch (which is my preferred method). I would like to continue the nose touch as it forces them to shift their weight into their back half, however, Delta at the moment is getting into a nice position all on her own. So do I add a nose touch or just keep the rewards coming for her position and not reward if she happens to do it too upright?

If she is offerig a natural 2o2o then I would encourage it, the object is for the dog to be safe and comfortable. Reward when the head is low and in line with where you want it, ignore any other position