Training a BC vs other breeds

[Maralynn]

I've been trainnig Kipp for SAR for a little over a year now. While he is making good progress, he does some things where I'm like "where did that come from". And it's not just him, the other BC and the BC/lab cross also have their moments. One person on the team commented to me the other week that "those Border Collies aren't all they're cracked up to be". I could see where she was coming from with what all 3 of them did that night!

 

The two people with the other BCs are quite experienced as trainers/SAR handlers, but these are their first BCs. And their dogs throw them for a loop sometimes, too. They just respond a bit differently to training than other breeds, and it is harder to correct an undesired behavior. Maybe it's just their softer temperment?

 

For instance, earlier this spring (during evals of course!) we set up a short 2 victim search for Kipp (find one than go find the second one). He went right in and alerted on victim #1, with victim #2 he went right in then started sniffing the ground instead of alerting. I'm thinking why even go to the victim if he's not going to alert ?

 

With Missy, her whole attitude toward learning was figure out what I wanted, then she does it consistantly, every time I ask.

She makes me look good as trainer. But it's not so much that I'm training, it's that she's figuring out what I want and doing it. She spoiled me, and taught what type of working relationship was possible with the breed! Kipp is much more of a dog, with less focus and ADD to boot! He has made tremendous strides, and continues to improve but I'm still not 100% sure what makes him tick.

 

After the above mentioned incident, I took him back to square one, working on building his focus and toy drive. A few weeks ago I plugged searching back in again. He seems to be doing better now, more focused and confident. So does that mean it was just a training issue? I hadn't been clear enough in what I expected of him?

 

I'm finding out is if I keep him calm and make him focus on me, like heeling, while heading out to search (as oppossed to getting him hyped up about searching) he remains more focused on searching.

 

So for those of you who have worked with other breeds (in any training situation), what do you find that you have to do differently when working with BCs? And why?

[Root Beer]

Even though Maddie is part Border Collie, she is very different to train.

 

My Border Collies are very active participants in the training process. They want (and get) a bit of a say in what we are doing and how I teach them. Maddie is more of a "please just lead me by the nose until I get it" kind of dog. I have to do a lot more repetition with her before she learns things.

 

I find that the Border Collies pick up behaviors faster, but it takes me a while to get things consistent on cue. Maddie is a much slower learner and she requires about 10 times more reinforcement and motivation, but once she learns something it stays learned forever and she is extremely consistent. Sit means sit with her. It does not mean sit, schooch back a few feet and flop into a down - not now, not ever! In the process of learning sit, I found the Border Collies much more likely to mix it up.

 

I've had to be more patient with the Border Collies, but more persistent with Maddie.

 

I don't use corrections to train any of them, so I wouldn't know about willingness to take correction, but I do see that my Border Collies are much more eager to figure out what the job is and get it right as quickly as possible. Maddie couldn't care less what the job is until it is made clear to her that a reward is involved.

 

The Border Collies tend to bring more creativity into training. If I am working on paw lifts with Speedy or Dean, they will try out different things once we get into it - maybe lift both paws at once, maybe go put a paw on a piece of furniture, maybe sit up in beg and offer a paw. This isn't necessarily during a freeshaping session, either. Maddie usually just does one thing or she does nothing! She can be creative sometimes, and she will do freeshaping to an extent, but her mind works very differently.

 

Finally, Maddie likes to do things a couple of times and then take a nice long break. In training classes, I've heard instructors say to never have the dog repeat a behavior more than three times in a row. With Maddie, it is important for me to remember not to overtrain. But the Border Collies, Speedy in particular, seem to really enjoy doing the same thing over and over and over. I'll do 10 repetitions of something with Speedy and he's still eager to do more!

 

As much as I love Maddie, I definitely prefer the learning style of the Border Collie.

[border_collie_crazy]

I know nothing about SAR, but I find training between my BCs and my non BCs to be entirely different things lol. I find my BCs learn things at the drop of a hat..whichs sounds like a good thing, exept that mean they pick up EVERYTHING at the drop of a hat, 1 screw so small I dont even notic I did it, and it will vhange their behaviour completly. they get ahead of themselves and try to anticipate based on my most subtle movements, whereever I am going they intend to beat me to it lol. the BCs also need more work to focas, when Happy was younger, before she has a race in flyball I had to take her out and play a cam of frisbee, she was not capeable of sinpley going out and focasing off the bat, she had to be primed first. Misty is similer but not as bad lol

 

my non BCs however, in general they are less inventive, so while they get exited, they dont get so ahead of themselves, they dont try to beat me too something until they KNOW what I am about to do. they also focas on food, as soon as food in involved they are nothing but focas lol

 

I like to joke that my Toller read the training manuel, the things the books say the dogs response will be, usually IS her response..my BCs however read the book just so they could make sure to avoid doing everything it said they would do lol. of coarse my Toller is unusually stupid for the breed, and my JRT is a PITA lol.

[herdcentral]

I have had 5 ACDS and one BC. Both ACDS and BC are very quick to pick things up. Not too many repetitions needed with these guys.

 

The big difference is attitude and persistance. If I do something wrong in training or dont give clear directions my ACDS get very irritated with me and bark to tell me to shape up. But they will keep trying with me untill I get it right, sort of like them training me. They dont like it when things go wrong out on an agility course but they blame me and thats the end of it.

 

My BC on the other hand will do her own thing if I am not clear, and if she senses it is not what I wanted she will shut down and give up. She tends to give up very easily and I am not used to that. She wants to do things perfectly all the time and loses interest quickly. She also needs to be primed with a game before we train.

 

I have to admit I find it more fun training my ACDS because they dont need priming, never give up and put up with their clumsy mum and take loyalty to a different level and are extremely focussed dogs when they are working with me. They dont take things to heart and are more forgiving.

 

My BC is a perfectionist and very sensitive which makes training a bit more complicated and challenging. But we are getting there. She is also more easily distracted by her surroundings.

 

Both breeds are equally smart just very different.

 

I would like to continue to have at least one of each and get to know the BC breed better. ACDS are my heart dogs so I would never not have one of them.

[INU]

I have seen this 'displacement' behavior after a dog locates a victim many times. It usually comes down to the drive, motivation, temperament and sometimes how comfortable the dog is with victims. I've seen dogs searching for a victim no problem but as soon as they locate the victim, the behavior completely changes. The dogs start sniffing, not alerting, go back to the handler etc. I usually recommend that you get your dog feels comfortable with the victim before doing the search problems. Do more motivating runaways then do the blind search. It can be the particular victim that a dog feels uncomfortable with - body language, sex, age etc.

[Maralynn]

I find that the Border Collies pick up behaviors faster, but it takes me a while to get things consistent on cue. Maddie is a much slower learner and she requires about 10 times more reinforcement and motivation, but once she learns something it stays learned forever and she is extremely consistent. Sit means sit with her. It does not mean sit, schooch back a few feet and flop into a down - not now, not ever! In the process of learning sit, I found the Border Collies much more likely to mix it up.

 

This makes alot of sense. I can picture Kipp thinking, Hey, why not try it all and see where that gets me? Just like I can picture a Lab saying, "if that's what got me the reward last time, I'm stickin' to it!"

 

I don't use corrections to train any of them, so I wouldn't know about willingness to take correction, but I do see that my Border Collies are much more eager to figure out what the job is and get it right as quickly as possible. Maddie couldn't care less what the job is until it is made clear to her that a reward is involved.

 

It's more than just taking corrections, it's correcting an undesired behavior. It doesn't always involve actual corrections, it may include taking a few steps back in training, a different kind of motivation, changing the training approach, or actual corrections.

 

Patience vs persistence and anticipation make alot of sense as well. I'm wondering if part of it that since they do pick up on things so fast, we expect them to have it down, when in fact they're still figuring it out.

 

My BC on the other hand will do her own thing if I am not clear, and if she senses it is not what I wanted she will shut down and give up.

 

Kipp isn't a shut down and give up type. He is soft and he may get nervous and unsure if he doesn't understand, but he has both high food drive and high prey drive. So that really helps to overcome his soft temperment. I'd have to be quite heavy handed with unfair corrections to shut him down.

 

I have seen this 'displacement' behavior after a dog locates a victim many times. It usually comes down to the drive, motivation, temperament and sometimes how comfortable the dog is with victims. I've seen dogs searching for a victim no problem but as soon as they locate the victim, the behavior completely changes. The dogs start sniffing, not alerting, go back to the handler etc. I usually recommend that you get your dog feels comfortable with the victim before doing the search problems.

 

Does this tend to be breed specific? Temperment specific? Or just something that happens? I can totally see this being an issue with Kipp and the BC/lab. In fact Kipp is doing much better after taking a break from searching for several weeks to focus on building drive/focus and adding in distractions while doing runaways and at the bark tube. I've been working alot lately on his overall people skills, hoping that as he becomes very comfortable with people in general, he will become more confident while searching.

[INU]

I don't think this is only specific to BCs as I have seen some GSDs and some labs with less drive do that. I think it's more to do with individual personalities/confident level.

 

Does this tend to be breed specific? Temperment specific? Or just something that happens? I can totally see this being an issue with Kipp and the BC/lab. In fact Kipp is doing much better after taking a break from searching for several weeks to focus on building drive/focus and adding in distractions while doing runaways and at the bark tube. I've been working alot lately on his overall people skills, hoping that as he becomes very comfortable with people in general, he will become more confident while searching.

 

 

[Cowboy's Mom]

I'm glad I found this thread. Because I too have some questions regarding training (in general) a BC versus other breeds.

 

I can only speak of my experience with Boxers. I had two of them (both now at the bridge) and training them (basic obedience) was such a snap! Both dogs were always very attentive, willing, always focused, and always watched me for commands. They were so very easy to train.

 

Cowboy, the BC, has been much more of a challenge. Not that he's dumb, I just cannot hold his focus. He's either not focused at all, or OVERLY focused. I have trouble finding middle ground with him. For instance, with heel, he sits nicely at the ready position, we begin the heel... he's walking, looking at the tiny pebble we just passed, a leaf blowing by, other dogs, other people, a bug crawling by, another rock, a twig, etc., rarely looking up to me for guidance. And all of this is with a very bland, mild treat in hand, lots of me talking to him (and also with no treat at all, or a toy).

 

IF I use a super-duper GREAT treat, he's overly focused. He sits at ready, and before I can give the heel command he plops into a down, scooches back, stands, barks, sits, etc. He is so overly focused on getting the super treat, he doesn't listen or wait for a command. He's only focused on that treat.

 

Now, we did graduate from our obedience class in first place, but it was such a challenge. He's just so different.

 

I'm not at all trying to hijack a thread here, but the main difference I notice is focus. Is that normal for a BC? Or is my dog just ADD?! LOL

[Ninso]

How old is Cowboy? This sounds like very puppy behavior. What have you tried as far as attention training? What do you do when he gets all crazy? If it were me, I would just ignore him until he settled down and either just sat or laid down giving me eye contact. Then I would either just reward him for that (teaching him to settle and give me his attention) or give a command at that point and then reward.

 

These BC's definitely have their quirks and it takes some thought to figure out what makes each of them tick. Mine is similar to herdcentral's. He wants to please, but if he doesn't know what I'm asking or isn't getting it right, he will give up--he used to just lay down and play dead when that happened. Now depending on how far I try to take it, I either get the ears-to-the-side, tail sagging, worried look, or he gets a little crazy and just tries offering random behaviors or gets really sloppy with what I am asking for. I have had to learn to read him and know when he is getting frustrated. I have to keep training sessions short with only a few repetitions of each command. If I keep asking him for the same thing over and over he gets bored and/or frustrated. Considering the fact that seven months ago, he would slink behind the couch when I asked him for so much as a few sits and downs, it is a great victory when I can do a few minutes of training with him bright-eyed, tail wagging, and actually enjoying himself.

[Cowboy's Mom]

Now depending on how far I try to take it, I either get the ears-to-the-side, tail sagging, worried look, or he gets a little crazy and just tries offering random behaviors or gets really sloppy with what I am asking for. I have had to learn to read him and know when he is getting frustrated.

 

 

Cowboy will be a year and a half next month, so he's past the real puppy stage. We graduated the obedience class when he was a year. Unfortunately, the trainers we had were not the best help and had no suggestions to help me with his focus. And he is my first BC.

 

I think your quote above really hit home with me though. I truly believe he gets frustrated and bored. I think both the lack of focus and the over focus reflect on me not doing such a great job with the training. Perhaps I was taking things too slowly and he was bored? Maybe I kept the sessions too long (or too repetitive) and he got frustrated? Like you said, he is very quirky... and very very smart!

 

Today for his focus, we work on sit/stay and down/stay with lots of distractions. We play hide and seek, with him finding me.. also play "which hand has the treat" types of games. Anything basic that keeps his attention on me. He's better than he was, but still doesn't watch me like I wish he would. And his heel is not where I want it (still looks around a lot).

 

He's a really good boy, and I'm pleased with how he did in the class. I just wasn't ready to move forward to the next class with him, because of his focus issues. Very quirky indeed!

 

This board has been a tremendous help along the way. Maralynn, I'm so glad you started this thread! I don't feel so alone!!

[Ninso]

Cowboy will be a year and a half next month, so he's past the real puppy stage.

 

I wouldn't necessarily count on a year and a half being past the puppy stage! I have heard of lots of BC's who don't really grow up until around three years. You may see his focus improving just by him maturing in the next year or so. I recently "fostered" a year and a half old BC who acted like he was about 12 weeks old! Silly, no focus, no manners, easily distracted--just a big old puppy!

 

Have you read the book "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDevitt? It has a lot of good focus/attention suggestions. Particularly, her game called "Give Me A Break" is really helpful for dogs with a short attention span. The key is to do very short (seconds) highly rewarding sessions with one skill and then release the dog for a couple minutes break, then call him back to you and repeat. If you work this long enough, he will start cutting his breaks short on his own and coming back to you asking to keep working. At that point, you can increase the length of the sessions. This may help for his heeling, if you ask him for, say two steps with attention on you, jackpot reward, and then simply stop the session, become boring and give him a cue thate he is free to go off and do dog things. The book explains it better and I'd recommend it if you haven't read it.

 

Sounds like you are already playing lots of good attention games. Maybe try shortening the sessions and increasing your rate of reward. Somewhat similar to your situation--my dog hates being in unfamiliar places and always knows where all the doors are, whether they have been opened in his presence or not. In order to keep his attention on me in a class setting (rather than him constantly looking at/dragging me towards the door) when he doesn't want to be there, I found it was very effective to increase the rate at which he was rewarded just for keeping his attention on me--a treat every 30 seconds or so. I was able to gradually decrease this as his focus increased and he become more comfortable in the unfamiliar setting.

[Cowboy's Mom]

Thanks for the encouraging words!! And I'll definitely pick up the book you suggested!

[Root Beer]

I second the recommendation! Control Unleashed is a treasure of a book!

[ziggzmom]

I wouldn't necessarily count on a year and a half being past the puppy stage! I have heard of lots of BC's who don't really grow up until around three years. You may see his focus improving just by him maturing in the next year or so. I recently "fostered" a year and a half old BC who acted like he was about 12 weeks old! Silly, no focus, no manners, easily distracted--just a big old puppy!

 

 

I totally agree! My youngest BC is two and a half yrs old and he is little by little 'finally' starting to show some signs of maturity. My oldest BC(who is 8 yrs old now) was 4 yrs old before I started showing him in obedience. I felt his attention wasn't solid enough untill then and I didn't want to set him up to fail. I'm glad I waited....He had the maturity and focus to handle the distracting environment of the show that he wouldn't have had as a 2 or 3 yr old.

 

Happy Training~

 

Janet

[Cowboy's Mom]

I totally agree! My youngest BC is two and a half yrs old and he is little by little 'finally' starting to show some signs of maturity. My oldest BC(who is 8 yrs old now) was 4 yrs old before I started showing him in obedience. I felt his attention wasn't solid enough untill then and I didn't want to set him up to fail. I'm glad I waited....He had the maturity and focus to handle the distracting environment of the show that he wouldn't have had as a 2 or 3 yr old.

 

Happy Training~

 

Janet

 

That really makes me feel better! I had thought about putting Cowboy in some obedience trials, but his lack of focus/maturity made me decide to wait, and even wait on moving to the next level in class. And as I said earlier, the trainers we had weren't the greatest, and they were really pushing me to sign him up. I'm glad I waited too now. I know my dog and I know he just isn't ready. The foundation isn't rock solid, like I want, and he's definitely not ready to take commands off leash!

 

The unfortunate part is that those trainers really made me feel guilty for stopping when I did. They said things like "but he's a Border Collie, he'll do just fine" and "he got first place, what more can you ask" and "don't be scared".

Which of course caused conflicting thoughts in my mind, and made me doubt my training ability.

 

I feel much better now! There is hope!! (Sorry for the apparent hijack!!)

[Ninso]

I know my dog and I know he just isn't ready. The foundation isn't rock solid, like I want, and he's definitely not ready to take commands off leash!

 

The unfortunate part is that those trainers really made me feel guilty for stopping when I did. They said things like "but he's a Border Collie, he'll do just fine" and "he got first place, what more can you ask" and "don't be scared".

 

Exactly! You know your dog best and what is best for him. I would sometimes pull my dog out of an hour class at half an hour or 45 minutes because he was shutting down and not performing his best. I also pulled him out of agility entirely, even skipping the last week of class because it was stressing him out and he didn't enjoy it. In the end, I know what's best for him and I am the one who will have to deal with the frustrated/stressed dog if I don't do what I know is best. Sounds like you're doing just fine. Keep it up.

[Maralynn]

I'm glad I waited too now. I know my dog and I know he just isn't ready. The foundation isn't rock solid, like I want, and he's definitely not ready to take commands off leash!

 

And there is the primary rule of dog training - Know your dog and set him up to succeed! He's your dog, you make the call on what you feel would set him up for success You'll never go wrong laying a solid foundation. Just because some BCs would be ready doesn't mean yours is.

 

I'm learning not to put my dog in a box, so to speak. He is a unique individual with his own learning style and issues to work through. So I need to train him and not the dog I might wish he was. And we'll be far more successful as a team in the long run because of it.

 

And focus? When I got Kipp everything on the world was more important than me, like the leaf that blew past. He'd chase a ball only to run right past it and on to something else. I'd get him outside and he'd stare off into the woods.

 

He is now to the point - a year and a half later - that things are really starting to come together (after a year and a half). He will now focus on finding his victim for a whole 5 minutes. And I've learned alot through working with him. So in the long run it will be time very well spent.

 

In another year you'll look back and be amazed at how far your dog has come

[Cowboy's Mom]

And focus? When I got Kipp everything on the world was more important than me, like the leaf that blew past. He'd chase a ball only to run right past it and on to something else. I'd get him outside and he'd stare off into the woods.

 

Boy do I know the feeling!!! One night during class, Cowboy started barking quite seriously at a BUG he saw on the wall! I thought we were going to have to leave, because I could not get him to hush!

 

The only time I'm important is when Cowboy is trying to herd me! Of course I have his FULL attention then!!

 

I'm so glad to hear that Kipp is working well for you now.

[herdcentral]

Mine is similar to herdcentral's. He wants to please, but if he doesn't know what I'm asking or isn't getting it right, he will give up--he used to just lay down and play dead when that happened. Now depending on how far I try to take it, I either get the ears-to-the-side, tail sagging, worried look, or he gets a little crazy and just tries offering random behaviors or gets really sloppy with what I am asking for. I have had to learn to read him and know when he is getting frustrated. I have to keep training sessions short with only a few repetitions of each command. If I keep asking him for the same thing over and over he gets bored and/or frustrated.

 

Yes this is mine exactly! So now when I am doing a bit of agility training I just try and have lots of fun and reward for even trying an obstacle and she is now starting to take obstacles of her own accord with a bit of speed. It is all pretty sloppy and random at the moment but a long way from lying on the ground with her ears down. She is even starting to get excited when she watches my older ACD running and watches very intently. My older ACD oozes attitude and joy and I think this is starting to rub off on my BC.

 

I agree with the slow maturity. ACDS mature very quickly possibly because of the dingo in them but some of the young BCS I train with including mine seem to start coming into their own more slowly. My 5 month old ACD would do a much better obedience test than my 15 mo BC, the difference seems to be focus.

 

I know once I have that focus and joy my BC will be awesome! but as a first time BC owner it can be challenging!