BC colors??

[urbanfarms]

I have been reading up on BC colors and have read several breeders rip on colors other than black/white, red/white, and blue. Was wondering what others think?

Also, was wondering if anyone has any info as far as color genetics is BC's? I read on one website that there is no blue merle gene. The dog either is or isn't. This leads me to believe that if you breed a black/white to a blue, no matter the black/whites genes.... you can still get blues?? Is this the same for other colors? I'm very confused!

Just out of curiousity, I love learning about color inheritance in animals.

[Journey]

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/ColorGen.html

 

This site may give you some sound infomation on colors.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

It's not that people "rip" on colors. However, breeders who make "colors" a priority for breeding, often are doing so merely to attract customers and not to produce the best possible examples of the Border Collie breed.

 

It's a really good clue as to the intention of the breeder, in other words.

[Eileen Stein]

Journey linked to a very good overall reference which you will want to read if you are interested in understanding color genetics.

 

To try to answer your specific question: First, "blue" and "blue merle" are different. I'm not sure from your post whether you are using them interchangeably or not, but blue dogs are solid gray (referred to as blue) in the colored portions of their coat, while blue merles are mottled gray and black in the colored portions of their coat. There are three gene locations involved in your question -- the B locus, the D locus, and the M locus.

 

Black & white dogs, blue dogs, and blue merle dogs all have at least one dominant gene at the B locus -- in other words, they are either BB or Bb. If they had two recessive genes (bb) at that locus, their base color would be what working border collie people call red, and kennel club people call chocolate or liver.

 

Blue dogs have either BB or Bb at the B locus, but they have two recessive genes (dd) at the D locus. That dilutes their black color to solid gray. Because the d is recessive, two black & white parents who are Dd at the D locus can produce a blue pup if both happen to contribute their d gene to that particular offspring.

 

Blue merle dogs also have either BB or Bb at the B locus, but they have one dominant gene (M) and one recessive gene (m) at the M locus, so they are Mm. That combination has the effect of diluting part of their black areas to gray but leaving other parts black, giving them their mottled appearance. If they had two recessive genes (mm) at M, their black would be all black -- they do not have the "merle gene." If they had two dominant genes (MM) at M, they would be mostly white, with small mottled patches, and would very likely have hearing defects and possibly visual defects as well. These health problems found in double merle dogs (sometimes referred to as "lethal whites") are the reason behind the generally accepted advice not to breed two merles together, since only a merle parent (or lethal white parent) can transmit the M gene to offspring.

 

Finally, if the dog is bb at the B locus, and Mm at the M locus, it will be a red merle. Therefore, though there is a merle gene, the website you refer to is correct that there is no blue merle gene. The merle gene acts on whatever underlying color is determined by the genes at the B locus.

 

Hope this is not too confusing -- I have oversimplified a little, believe it or not.

 

Breeding to produce blues or merles or other unusual colors is not a good quality in a border collie breeder -- not so much because there is anything wrong with those colors per se, but because you can't give priority to colors without taking away priority from the working qualities that are the defining standard of our breed.

[urbanfarms]

Thanks for the info, it is very confusing but it does clear things up a bit!!!

Interesting stuff!

[Janba]

This is one fo the best sites I have found for dog colour genetics.

 

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html

 

Also for good pictures of the different colours

 

http://www.gis.net/~shepdog/BC_Museum/Perm...oks_Health.html

[lrayburn]

Eileen's and the other responses were excellent.

 

To sum it up in a nutshell, "exotic" coat colors do not *generally* occur in border collies without intentional breeding for color. Since border collies should be bred for working ability, breeders who turn out dogs with unusual colors (and who market them as such) are generally not breeding for a working standard and should be avoided.

 

Certain breedings (such as merle/merle) can be associated with higher risks of certain health problems. Inbreeding which concentrates recessive characteristics for color can also concentrate detrimental recessive characteristics.

 

It doesn't mean that colored dogs aren't great dogs, particularly as companions, but breeding should be based on working ability and breeding for color should not be supported.

 

Lisa

[Margaret Johnson]

I've been trying to fugure out for the last few days (sad I know) is Tri recessive or dominate. If you breed two Tri's you only get Tri pups, Right? Has anyone bred 2 Tri's and got a bi pup? Which in my book would make it recessive, but the articles I've been reading make it sound more complicated then that.

 

This all started at a herding clinic where I was talking about my Tri bitch and how I thought she had a dilute gene (as she does not have normal tan patches) only to find out I was standing next to an AKC conformation bc breeder who gave me a long talk about color genetics and which was a good reminder as to how much I don't care what color my dogs really are, but also made me realize I don't know a thing about bc color genetics.

 

Hopefuly a attached a photo of Nova (I'm not having great luck with posts) She's has flecking insted of patches on her tri areas, and is a blk Tri smooth coat, but if you push her fur in the wrong direction she is light gray underneath. Anyways, I think now I'll call her a "Primitive" Tri even though she is most likley just a variation of a blk Tri. Nova is a granddaughter of S van der Zweep's Glen and he is this type of tri and I've seen many of his offspring down 4 generations.

[Journey]

If I am not mistaken the Tri gene is dominant.

 

Karen

[Ace]

I did a segment on BC genetics for a website, and Tri is recessive. At least from the research I have done it is. I could be wrong.

 

Diane

[Katelynn & Gang]

I did a segment on BC genetics for a website, and Tri is recessive. At least from the research I have done it is. I could be wrong.

 

Tri is recessive, just like red is. If you bred two tri dogs, you get tri puppies, if you bred to red dogs, you get red puppies.

 

I'm not sure what Nova is but her coat looks and sounds like my Dice's. Dice was bred to a red tri and produced only two tri puppies out of eight. So Dice is not a tri but I do believe she does carry the dilute gene. Her Sire is known for a white tip on his ear, so I've grown to believe over time that he is a phantom merle.

 

Now is the merle gene the same as the dilute gene? lol

 

Its based more then on the dog itself, its parents and grandparents also come into play.

 

Katelynn

[juliepoudrier]

Katelynn,

Why does a white ear tip make you think phantom merle? Couldn't it just as likely be some sort of white factoring?

And where does the dilute gene fit in? If she carries the gene, wouldn't she express it in her coat?

 

J.

[Janba]

Hopefuly a attached a photo of Nova (I'm not having great luck with posts) She's has flecking insted of patches on her tri areas, and is a blk Tri smooth coat, but if you push her fur in the wrong direction she is light gray underneath. Anyways, I think now I'll call her a "Primitive" Tri even though she is most likley just a variation of a blk Tri. Nova is a granddaughter of S van der Zweep's Glen and he is this type of tri and I've seen many of his offspring down 4 generations.

 

She could be a sable rather than a tri - it is hard to tell from the photos. They are both caused by alleles at the agouti locus.

 

We get a quite a few sables in the Australian working BC and they range from pale to very darkand also sables with black sadle markings. I am not sure if tri is dominant over sable or vis versa or co dominant.

 

so I've grown to believe over time that he is a phantom merle.

 

Now is the merle gene the same as the dilute gene? lol

 

Merle is a dominant gene so to have a merle you have to have one merle parent (or a phantom merle). The dilute gene is a different gene and is a recessive. It dilutes chocolates (reds) to lilac and black to blue. It will also dilute merles.

 

We have an additional colour here - the Australian red as you call it or the ee red. It occurs in our working lines and is the same gene that gives yellow labradors and vislas their colour. It masks the colour pigment in the hair so the dog is genetically black or red/chocolate. It also masks the expression of the tri, sable and merle genes. It also means that you have to be careful breeding ee reds to merles if they have any merle in their background, as if they carry the merle gene they will definitely be a cryptic merle.

 

I find colour genetics fascinating, probably because my original degree was genetics, but I also don't really care what colour my dog is so long as they are sound and healthy.

[Lenajo]

A BC lovin' friend of mine is also a rat breeder, and really good at genetics of color from many years of breeding in that area. After seeing several black bi dogs result from tri/tri crosses she started researching - including taking hair samples under the microscope.

 

Her conclusion is that we have a lot of sables out there being called "tri". A sable bred to a tri can produce a black bi

 

It really doesn't matter in the important areas...but it is interesting.

[Janba]

A BC lovin' friend of mine is also a rat breeder, and really good at genetics of color from many years of breeding in that area. After seeing several black bi dogs result from tri/tri crosses she started researching - including taking hair samples under the microscope.

 

Her conclusion is that we have a lot of sables out there being called "tri". A sable bred to a tri can produce a black bi

 

It really doesn't matter in the important areas...but it is interesting.

 

 

The production of bi dogs from tri/tri crosses and tri/sable crosses could be due to the recessive black allele being present at the agouti locus. This is different to the BB or Bb that gives normal black dogs. Tri and sable are both dominant over the recessive black so a tri dog can be a^ta^t or a^ta. A cross between two a^ta dogs would give some pups who are aa so would appear as a normal black bi. This is recessive gene that gives black bi shelties and black German Shepherds.

 

A sable bred to a tri can only give a bi if they both carry the recessive black.

[Lenajo]

Thanks. This goes along nicely with what my friend is trying to explain to me. She feels the base color of the breed is actually agouti, and we are simply seeing black or yellow banding over the hairs.

 

 

The production of bi dogs from tri/tri crosses and tri/sable crosses could be due to the recessive black allele being present at the agouti locus. This is different to the BB or Bb that gives normal black dogs. Tri and sable are both dominant over the recessive black so a tri dog can be a^ta^t or a^ta. A cross between two a^ta dogs would give some pups who are aa so would appear as a normal black bi. This is recessive gene that gives black bi shelties and black German Shepherds.

 

A sable bred to a tri can only give a bi if they both carry the recessive black.