Pit Bull Ban

[DTrain]

I live in Ontario where there is a pit bull ban. The exact area I live in seems to have quite a number of pits bulls, I see them every day. In fact in my area we see a large number of dogs of that type, PB's, ROT's etc. Ontario and most communities have problems appllying the measures of the ban and they spend most of their time in court over this issue. I am watching to see how this turns out. I have spoken with the Mayor of my city about this and other dog / dog owner matters. I firmly believe that any dog of any breed that attacks any creature for any reason is a problem dog. In virtually every case I have looked into concerning dog attacks they have happened for a number of reasons but at the top of the list is owner handling and training and that is the area I focus on. There is a mentality to dog owners and we all know this so I shall leave it at that. I once was a dog trainer but I am now a people trainer. That is to say I train people to understand and manage their dogs and this has been most welcomed in my community. It is amazing how many people who own dogs have no knowledge of canine behavior. I am told frequently by owners that their dog is just being protective and we all know what that behavior really is. Some of these owners are very proud of that behavior. I am also asked by owners what they can do to stop their dog from aggressive behavior. I find in every case where an owner has a problem that the dog is the dominant creature in their home. My training starts from that point. I encourage everyone to get involved in their community and do something positive with your dog laws and by-laws. We are talking in my community about making it mandatory for dog owners ( the starting point is problem dogs ) to take a course. By the way the only dog that has ever biten me is a BC, my own dog and a very bad bite and a sneak attack. He only did it once and he is now my best dog and the best example I use to show people a well trained and socialized dog.

[bc4pack]

"I firmly believe that any dog of any breed that attacks any creature for any reason is a problem dog. "

 

 

 

Just curious... a dog that gets ahold of a squirrel or kills mice is a 'problem dog' ???

[lrayburn]

"I firmly believe that any dog of any breed that attacks any creature for any reason is a problem dog. "

 

Just curious... a dog that gets ahold of a squirrel or kills mice is a 'problem dog' ???

 

OMG!!! Don't tell Pip Squeak who is VERY PROUD of killing her first muskrat. And please don't tell the cops in my area - they might not let her participate in the animal rescue float at the Christmas parade this year...

 

Lisa

[bc4pack]

Yeah and I've got one right now who is mole catcher extraordinaire...

My first was a heck of a mouser... my first raw fed dog!

[border_collie_crazy]

ya I cant agree with the "any creature for any reason" thing either. a dog being a dog does not make it a "problem dog". thats like saying all children who cry for any reason are problem children lol. the most tempermentally sound dog I have ever owned is not even remostly trustworthy with other animals, heck I had to rush my bird to the vet when she got ahold of him. and she caught and ate a sparrow lol

[DTrain]

Lets turn this a little. Most of us have dogs in a good situation. I wonder how many dogs in total all board members would have and how many of those dogs would be a problem to society. I would bet none. Yet many communities are making efforts to identify what they think are problem dogs by constantly changing the definition to include as many possiblities as they can. These conclusions in many cases are formed from complaints. In one situation a lady sued a city after seeing someones dog attack a cat claiming that she was terrorized by the whole event. So up comes a rule for discussion that any dog which attacks any creature etc. Some communities are trying to sweep dog problems under the carpet by looking at rules such as dogs are not allowed off an owners property, period. I am aware of a community which is looking at banning all dogs from public places. In another community they are looking at no ppop zones. It will no longer be the case that an owner is required to clean up after their dog but they must insure the dog will not go in the first place. The pit bull bans are just a start, many communities are looking at banning other breeds under the same act and conditions. The point I am trying to make is that dogs and not owners of problem dogs are being targetted. I may not explain myself well but I do have a concern for this. Communities in many ways are building fear of dogs. I may have mentioned this before. I had three dogs BC's in my truck and a lady asked me or more like stated that they are pit bulls. She obviously is a wild exception but she had a concern that so many dogs, pit bulls are a problem. At the same time communities are making rules they are creating fear and they are not providing any public education. I could go on for hours giving you examples but what is the point. Blanket rules and regulations are chipping away at responsible dog ownership. We live in a time where one person with one interest or one situation can set the rules for everyone. I am working in my community to educate people on responsible dog ownership but in many ways I feel my efforts are usless. While at the same time education is being provided rules are being looked at to practically eliminate dogs. Sure there are problem dogs and dogs can cause problems but instead of education and problem solving there is an effort to elimniate dogs.

[Sophinator]

My community enacted a law that bans pit bulls (and includes all breeds like Bull Terriers, etc) and Rottwielers, or "any breed that appears to be a mix thereof." I am wondering if the animal control officer is going to be doing genetic testing, because that's a pretty wide dragnet. On the plus side, the law allows you to keep your current Pit or Rott if you can prove that ownership (via medical records or registrations) existed prior to the enactment of the the law. At least they're not tearing Fido from his owner's arms.

 

I can see where the breed banin my municipality is coming from. Unfortunately, there have been a goodly number of dog fights in the area, accompanied by illegal drug and weapon sales. I think my community basically wanted to push the criminal activity into someone else's jurisdiction.

 

There is also the "Why do you need a cannon when a shotgun would do?" question. While there are perfectly good Pits and perfectly good Rotts belonging to perfectly responsible owners, plain fact of the matter is that a testosterone ridden "I want a vicious beast" person is far more likely to get a Pit than, say, a Toy Poodle. Improperly cared for, trained, and disciplined, these dogs can be downright scary. I'd rather have my brain dead neighbor's angry poodle coming at me than his antisocial Rottwieler. I agree that existing laws could do more good than a breed ban IF THEY WERE ENFORCED!

 

By the way, I had a Bull Terrier many, many moons ago. He was a wonderful very friendly dog. But I also know his physical strength and his personality traits--especially the incredible loyalty to his Chosen One--and the thought of a dog like that in the hands of someone who has issues himself terrifies me!

[WildFlower]

I think that that this is a very interesting topic to discuss. Hopefully, my thoughts won't come across as completely random...

 

First of all, anything that has teeth will bite - which means that any breed of dog can bite. But just as the breed that we all hold close to our hearts was bred for herding, certain other breeds were bred for "protection". These breeds have a higher predisposition to bite, be defensive, or aggressive.

 

I am sure that there are several wonderful Rots or Pits out there. There are always exceptions to the rules. And I would also agree with DTrain, that it is the responsibility of the dog owner to properly train and control their dog (no matter what breed!). If one should choose to have a "more aggressive" breed then that person has to accept the responsibilities that having that specific breed requires. Just as we BC owners, know that we have exercise our dogs more (mentally and physically) than the average dog, these dog owners must be extremely vigilant about their dogs aggression.

 

I do not specifically know if my city has a ban but many apartment complexes do not allow certain breeds of "aggressive" dogs and some home-owners or renters inusrance companies will not insure you if you have a certain breed of dog wither. And frankly, I do not blame them! It is a shame that the good owners of more aggressive breeds suffer because of uneducated or uncaring owners.

[Chesney's Girl]

I agree that if things continue down this road where breed by breed is being banned, there will be no domestic dogs. Its a shame that so many people are scared of dogs simply because of stories about the poorly owned ones.

 

Plain and simply, breed bans and BLSs, are not fair to those people who really enjoy and are responsible for owning these breeds. I was bit in the hand when a Golden Retriever lunged at my face when I was sitting on the couch. Should that mean that in Irvine California I should make a stink that ALL dogs of this breed be deemed dangerous? No, that's just ridiculous. I personally really enjoy Pits and would like to own one some day and damned to the people who make them illegal to own them.

[ImWithAlice]

Alright, I know I'm going to stir up a hornets' nest with this but I'd like everyone who reads this post to consider how we as a society can protect ourselves and other people from vicious dog attacks. I agree that any animal with teeth can bite (I've even heard stories where snakes have bitten after they'be been killed), but I don't want to see a world where all dogs must be on leash at all times and/or muzzled and IMHO, there ARE certain breds that are predisposed to bite/fight/be aggressive, just like there ARE certain breds that are predisposed to herd and be biddable.

 

Here are a couple of scenerios to consider out of my own personal knowledge:

A man ran with his dogs on leash on the same route every day for years (my now ex, btw). One day two pit-type dogs attacked his dogs, latching on to one, an approx. 40 lb shepherd cross. The man managed to kick one of them off, but could only dislodge the second by beating it over the head with "a rock the size of a cantalope". This man was a big, offense-line type man who could easily "sky hook" 60lb bales to the top of a hay truck. The short version of this story is that we paid $250 in vet bills for our dog, and received $40 from the biting dog's owner before he moved and left no forwarding address (he'd been living in a truck camper) on a friend's place.

 

A woman is out riding her horse with a friend (also riding). She stops at a river to give her horse a drink. There are two people on foot and one pit-type dog. She talks the people and everything is fine until the horses drop their heads to drink. The dog attacks the horses, latching onto the first horses neck and holding. Both horses wheel in a panic, both riders land on the ground. The end result is both horses are bitten severely and then bolt miles back to the trailer. The riders are physically okay, but one is too frightened to ride in that vicinity again (not me, thankfully). The owner gave a phoney address to one of the riders and fled before the police arrived.

 

I also owned an Akita which according to even Akita fanciers is a breed that is not reliable around dogs of its own gender. My dog had no problem with dogs of either gender and was the nicest, sweetest dog all dogs and people. She was, however, a killer of anything else smaller than her. She stayed confined at all times possible and fortunately only got loose once in over 12 years. Unfortunately, she did find my cat. If she'd killed the neighbor's cat instead, I'd have only been liable for the cost of the animal. Let's see, the average barn cat goes for what these days? Would that have been fair?

 

I certainly would not have appreciated being told that I could not own that Akita (which I barely rescued from the pound, they really didn't want to adopt her out BECAUSE of her breed) and I don't want anyone to tell me I can't own one in the future. I want to see a better solution than breed bans, but I cannot think of one. Can anyone? Ideas? Or do we expect society to believe that dog attacks are one of the risks we all have to live with?

[painted_ponies]

I want to see a better solution [to the problem of dog attacks] than breed bans, but I cannot think of one. Can anyone?

 

Yes. Enact or enforce existing laws that prohibit loose dogs.

[Lenajo]

Read the book "Dogs Bite, but Balloons and Slippers are more Dangerous" and you'll see that yet the fear of dog attacks is out of proportion. You are in more danger in your car, from falling in your slippers, from reacting to over the counter drugs....that from dogs.

 

The fear of dog bites is a primal one - when it gets down to it we are basically still just apes in the trees screaming WOLF. Think now? Somebody sticks themselve with a pin and they yell "owe!" and get over it. Have the same degree of injury from a dog and the average person will still be in a cold fear sweat about that "<wolf> that nearly killed them".

 

There is no simple solution to anything involving humans. Education helps, as do *enforced* laws that hold people accountible to behavior. Strict laws about roaming, noise, and sanitation. Basically when dogs are kept under control and in decent situations they rarely get into big trouble. Most communities have these laws on the books already, but don't enforce them. It makes no sense (except of course to apes yelling "WOLF" or politicians seeking to profit on this fear) to places laws on human criminals based on race, when we have laws based on behavior. In fact it's illegal.

 

We just went through a breed ban attempt here. It was all about politics, not keeping people safe. It was defeated and will stay defeated as long as we can do it.

[MrSnappy]

Yes. Enact or enforce existing laws that prohibit loose dogs.

 

It is incredibly difficult to legislate common sense. Short of having a chaperone for every dog owner out there, there will always be idiots who loose dogs that should be leashed. And just as breed bands punish the innocent, so do overzealous leash laws punish responsible owners and dogs. The more laws we enact, the less dog-like our dogs are allowed to be!

 

Ultimately, I don't buy the slippery slope argument ("once they ban pitbulls, your pomeranian will be next!") as I think its fear mongering. This doesn't mean I support breed bans or believe them to be effective. The fact is, humans can make a weapon out of just about anything (just ask any corrections officer!) and are too darn keen to use it. We are talking about the only species on earth that fights other animals for fun and profit.

 

RDM

[Sassy Girl]

This is a battle that many pitbull lovers have been strugglling with. There are many out there who understand this is not just a per breed issue, it is a dog issue. If we go around banning breeds, the breeds we created, we will end up with a very limited amount of breeds whom are legal to own. I don't know of one exact answer to this problem but we all can help by educating the average joe, helping them understand basic canine behavior, seeing these dangerous breeds in a positive light instead of a negative light. Educate by example...

[painted_ponies]

And just as breed bands punish the innocent, so do overzealous leash laws punish responsible owners and dogs. The more laws we enact, the less dog-like our dogs are allowed to be!

 

You're absolutely right. I should have said "enact or enforce laws against allowing dogs to roam at will 24/7."

 

Leashes aren't real common in my part of the world. I was thinking more of legislating against the permanently free-range canine population. Loose dogs under their owner's supervision are fine by me.

 

I'd never enact a law to keep Mr. Woo from attaining big air.

[in2adventure]

I don't think there is a good solution to this issue. There will always be bad dogs and bad owners. To select certain breeds to ban is a bad choice. What happens to all those rotts and GSD they use for therepy and other guide services? I have a friend who has a pitt that's a service dog. Does she not go out in public anymore? They are also trying to say that pitts, rotts, dobes, etc are supposed to muzzled in public. Give me a break! Nothing like reinforcing the public image of a dangerous dog

 

Lucia is known as a "biter". WHY? because some jackass at work reached in my car window to pet her and she tore into him. He was PISSED! "She knows me" he kept saying. She won't let my own parents in the car if I'm not there to say it's OK. He got no appology from me, just a "you should have known better" speech. She was doing her job. Does that mean we should ban all BC's?

 

I see the property protection thing as giving dogs a bad rap all the time. Some idiot climbs a fence, enters a house, gets in car, etc without the owner present and the dog does their job. Now the owner is in trouble, the dog's in quarentine or being put to sleep, a huge court case ensues. WTH....did they not see the beware of dog sign? What was the kid thinking when he cut across the yard as a short cut? No one cuts across a junkyard without expecting to get bit (and the property owners rarely get in trouble since the dogs are expected to be there), why should a home owner get in trouble for the same thing.

[doggietrio]

I don't buy the slippery slope argument ("once they ban pitbulls, your pomeranian will be next!") as I think its fear mongering.

 

I dunno...while a Pom might be extreme...I do think that if we continue the way we are with legislating practically everything, breeds that may not be "dangerous" but sound "scary" could be legislated out.

 

When I first moved into my own place from my parents' house, I got a little shelter dog, an Aussie mix. I eventually decided I wanted to get renters' insurance. The agent came over and we discussed coverage, etc. When it came time to sign up for the policy, the agent asked us what breed of dog ours was. An "Australian Shepherd/Golden Retriever mix" I proudly declared. The agent's eyes widened and she emphatically stated that we would only want to list "Golden Retriever mix" as the breed, because "shepherds" are bad and most companies won't insure households where they reside. I tried to explain that this was not a GERMAN shepherd, but she didn't care. To her, a shepherd was a shepherd was a shepherd. This was in 1993, so really before "the public" knew what Aussies really were. But, that has stuck with me.

 

People's ignorance may cost me a breed that I love. I will always fight BSL and breed bans because I believe that "once they ban pitbulls, my ____ could be next".

 

In America, we can own assualt riffles and handguns, but in some areas we can't own a doggie with a boxy head.

[bsms99]

Yes. Enact or enforce existing laws that prohibit loose dogs.

I take my dogs out in the desert to let them run loose. I went to a dog sport competition where darn near everyone let their dog loose without problems. Loose dogs aren't the problem. Dogs strong enough to overpower an adult in a fight are another matter.

 

Read the book "Dogs Bite, but Balloons and Slippers are more Dangerous" and you'll see that yet the fear of dog attacks is out of proportion. You are in more danger in your car, from falling in your slippers...

I require my car, and control my slippers. Pitt bulls are NOT a societal requirement, and I cannot control encountering them. Also, bites vary. BCs don't go berserk and attack relentlessly until their opponent dies. GSDs have about 1/3 the bite force of a pit bull.

 

The best solution I can think of is to require licensing of someone who wants to own certain breeds. Arizona is an open-carry state, but I cannot wear a gun anywhere...bars, federal property, private property are all off limits. Concealed carry has the same restrictions, but with requirements for classes, etc. There is a constitutional right of some sort to have a gun - unlike a dog - but there are still restrictions possible since it is deadly force. Why not require something similar for those who own dogs that can kill most adults? Add in perhaps a $10,000 fine or prison time, and enforce THOSE laws. Opinions?

 

BTW - my wife, daughter and older dog were stalked by a 180 lb Rotti a couple of years ago. His owner was letting him run loose because 'he wouldn't harm anyone'. In reality, he was VERY nice towards people. He didn't like other dogs. He crossed a 1/4 mile to get to us, then followed us about a hundred yards - slow, staring at Dan with a low rumble in his chest. I pulled Dan (who wanted to go down fighting) with me until we got to a lot where a new house was being built. I picked up a heavy metal bar and Dan & I prepared to make our stand. My plan was to let Dan take the first impact, then kill the Rotti with blows to the head. Don't know if it would work - the owner came running up screaming for her dog, and after another minute he obeyed. She told me how nice he was. I told her if he stalked me or mine again, I'd be wearing my .45 and blow his head off. She called a contractor that week and had a wall built. Nice dog - very nice dog - to humans. Obscene to let him run loose!

[Sophinator]

Let's see. If I were to go from personal experience, the only breed of dog that ever seriously bit me was a beagle. Should I be shouting "Ban The Beagles! Uno is a Killer!!!"

 

As I said in my earlier post, I've had a bully breed in the past, my old Poochie. I could not own him now in my current community. And as I said earlier, I am really leary of the bully breed of today. You've got the backyard breeders who purposely put the most aggressive specimens together. You've got a Bull Terrier that's people friendly and and these folks cross-breed him to one of the Big Guardian Breeds with no particular propensity to "play nice." You've got the people who just want to scare everybody and go out of their way to make the dog mean. You've got my old Bull Terrier now bred to the exaggerated Egghead skull with rage seizures--not a coincidence, I'm thinking. My old Poochie actually had a stop to his forehead and, while seizure prone, did not exhibit rage when he had a seizure. (Be careful what you breed for. You may not like the side effects!) If I'm out walking Sophie and a Pit heads my way, I have no way of knowing whether it's a good Pit or a bad Pit until it's too late.

 

So, yes, I agree. I would like to see current laws enforced rather than breed bans. No dog should be allowed to run loose in an urban area. Period. I don't give a frigging frack how loving and obedient your dog is. There are people who are terrified of dogs of any breed. Maybe for good reason. If my Sophia goes running up to them and they fall trying to get away, I am (or should be) legally liable for their injuries. For that matter, I am not really crazy about a neighbor's large but friendly hound slamming into me when I'm dressed up for a job interview. I'm not crazy about stepping in FiFi The French Poodle's poop on my lawn (or at the park or anywhere else.) And I'm really not understanding about a dog on the loose threatening either me or Sophia when we're out and she's on leash. If your dog attacks my Sophie I will kill your dog with no qualms of conscience. End of story. End of your dog. Unfortunately, the legal standard in these parts is pretty much the One Free Bite Law. Until and unless a dog does attack somebody, he is presumed innocent, regardless of how many people complain about him running amok. I don't want to be that Test Case.

[ImWithAlice]

I'm having little trouble posting, and I'm hoping you all don't get plagued with multiple replies from me. Sorry if you do.

 

I'd like to reply to a couple of ideas I've read in this thread and I hope I don't sound too critical, but I think this topic is a serious one for anyone with a dog.

 

First, I have difficulties with the idea that existing leash laws are adequate to ensure dog/animal or dog/human attacks don't happen or are adequately prosecuted. I don't live in an urban area and many of the places I hike/ride are areas where there are no leash laws. The dog/horse attack I posted earlier was in a state park on a beach which is excluded from that county's leash law. If these areas were INCLUDED in leash laws, people would not be able to use their dogs hunting or ride with their dogs along side. I myself have assuredly violated some leash law or other when I used my dog to move sheep down a county road. Surely we don't want the dog catchers out after border collies working sheep on public property? The other problem I have with leash laws is that they don't work. Up here there have been two serious dog/human maulings in the last several months (both little old ladies, one in her front yard, one in her house). In both cases the dogs had escaped from their yards. There is a 'dangerous dog' law, however, and the owners are being prosecuted under that. It doesn't do squat for prevention, and that's what people who are trying for breed bans are trying for.

 

That being said, I'm not for breed bans, because the Pit type dogs will be replaced by another "tough" dog that everyone will have to have and that breed will have to be added to the list or enforcement will be spending $$ to try to prove dog X is indeed breed Y and not a lab/border collie mix or something else it could masquarade as. I'm old enough to remember when everyone had to have a GSD to be "tough". They were replaced by the dobie, which was replaced by the rott and then the pit and "American Bulldog". All were overly bred and quite a few fell into the hands of people who shouldn't have ever had any dog. I agree that in my experience pits are more aggressive than the GSD or dobies of my youth, but if they are banned, something else will replace them, or they'll just fall out of fashion anyway and another breed with similar issues will become the rage.

 

So I can't come up with any good ideas on prevention. The one about licensing owners of certain breeds is good except that the 'problem' breeds historically change. Still it's an idea better than an outright ban. How about we increase liability for bites? I don't mean the "it broke the skin, put a bandaid on it" bite, but the REAL "had to have stitches" on up to "loss of a body part" bite? Say 3X the actual medical costs? And a minimum amount for killing a family pet (I keep thinking about if my Akita had killed the neighbor's cat instead of mine)? Also (and here I'm going to be REALLY unpopular), I pay good money to license my animals. I'd be willing to pay a bit more if the counties would offer "good doggy citizen" classes or discounts on puppy training lessons (certified, of course).

 

And I have one comment about statistics for those who think I'm more likely to be mauled by my slippers than by a dog. The average cat bite is more serious than the average dog bite due to the rate of infection, but cats don't chase people. More people are seriously injured by horses than they are by dogs, but those people chose to be on or around horses. What scares people isn't the statistical probabilities, it's the randomness and potential seriousness of injury from an animal we as a society allow to walk down every street and live in nearly every house. Heck, if anyone cared a whoop about statistics, no one would ever buy lottery tickets.

[Sophinator]

I'M WITH ALICE makes a good point. For outdoor activities in rural areas, dogs of necessity have to run loose, whether the dog is tending livestock or assisting the hunter. So I'm not advocating leash laws in the wide open spaces. But I don't live in the wide open spaces and neither do the majority of people. We live on top of each other in cities and suburbs. In that environment there is simply no logical reason for dogs to be running loose. And there are a heck of a lot more dogs crowded into this compressed space.

 

Just to show you how idiotic people can be....There seems to be quite a practice in my town to let Fido out the front door to do his business. Now, why would you turn Fido loose when you have a fenced backyard at your disposal? Oh, maybe that's it, you don't want doggy doo in the backyard where the kids play, and you're secretly hoping that Fido will go down the street and leave your front yard spotless. Heck, I've even seen people who put their dog on a tie out in the front. What's wrong with putting the tie out in the back??? Then you wouldn't have to run out the front door every five seconds to keep Fido from lunging at people on the sidewalk. It's just one of those head scratchers.