Alonzo Terrell Posted May 6, 2008 Report Share Posted May 6, 2008 Dante's a year old (5/12/08), male. I live out in the country so I'm not around too many other dogs. I'm training my pup for SAR and want him neutral towards other dogs, which I've failed somehow. This past February a larger German Shepard nipped Dante's rear leg. (idiot let his dog out of his truck with out controlling it). Now I don't know if this was the cause of this fear/anxiety or not but now I'm having issues. On lead he'll lunge and bark at randoms dogs. We can try to sit there for a minute and he fixates his eyes on another dog then suddenly lunges. He also began pulling on his leash quite violently. Once we clear the area, he'll usually mark his territory. This past weekend we had a dog walk where a bunch of owners and their dogs came. Are SAR group had a booth. Dante was fine for the first hour or so, but became agitated with other dogs. He was fine with the dogs around our group. I'm unsure of how to deal with this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Girl Posted May 6, 2008 Report Share Posted May 6, 2008 Dogs act aggressively toward other dogs for various reasons. A puppy who was not properly socialized to other dogs, i.e., allowed to play or romp unsupervised with other dogs, or one who has had negative interaction w/other dogs will naturally grow up feeling anxious and tense in the company of other dogs. Early socialization is key to having a stable tempermant, especially if you plan to have your dog in a working environment. If you are just starting, you are going to need to put a lot of work into your dog to get him desensitized to other dogs. I don't know your background, but you probably should speak with a behaviorist to help you through this situation...... Does your SAR group have a behaviorist or experienced trainer working with you guys, if so they should have some contacts to help you get some guidance to help you through this. Our 1 year old bc mix became fear aggressive after our alpha female decided to lay down the law one too many times on her own. His aggression kicked in at the age of 7 months, we could not even walk out of our front door w/out him going nuts i.e, barking/screaming, lunging at anything that went by our house. In the car he was an even worse nightmare. We knew we had to help him. We looked at his behavior and began working on his self control, focus and desensitization to various stimuli that was triggering him. Some things we did that may help you....time outs away from the environment for having an outburst, frequent walks, teaching him some self control excercises and increasing his focus on his handler. When we took Aries on his walks we chose a time that didn't have much neighborhood activity, so we could ease him into it slowly. We brought treats and a ball w/us as his rewards for ignoring the other dogs on our walks and then progressed to allowing him to greet the other dogs appropriately. We also began walking him on a halti, this gave us more control over him on our walks and in close quarters such as at flyball tournaments and other dog events. On the halti, he seems to let his guard down a lot more. One thing about the halti, it hits a few pressure points that help w/calming which we found helped us tremendously. Is Dante neutered? If not - why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alonzo Terrell Posted May 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 Dante is not neutered. From what I've read I've decided to wait until he's closer to 2 years of age. As for proper socialization, and letting my dog romp around with other dogs; everything I've read (which I consider truly informative) states that dogs should not be allowed to do this. Example, your dog should not be allowed to say hi to mine, or go play b/c in dog society this would never happen. Dogs are pack animals and other dogs are not part of our pack. Any communication that is not taken through the appropriate channel, the Alpha is unacceptable. This to me makes the most sense. Desensitizing does make sense, and I agree with you there. SAR handlers tend to be on their own when training dogs. Dante has no difficulty training for SAR in the company of many dogs. He's focused and ready to work, when the harness is on. The problem is just the walking around. There shouldn't be other dogs roaming freeing on an incident, however I want to avoid any unnecessary looks if there was. What I found out yesterday was two things, perhaps their is some confusion in Alpha leadership, which I must reestablish, and secondly is the slow introduction to dogs in a social setting, by using some extremely persuading food source, like cheese or meat. To constantly feed him small portions for a set time, then gradual increase the time and close the proximity with another dog. The goal is to feed Dante and a stranger dog side by side, without either paying attention to other. This is what I was able to find out yesterday. Anyone with experience try this approach? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Girl Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 I did not say you want your dog to romp around with other dogs, what I was saying is that interations with other dogs can cause fear aggression issues, especially if the dog has had a negative interaction. At a year old, your dog is going through major changes in his maturity and the way he copes with different stimuli. Desensitization and focus training would help you a great deal. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedismom Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 Dante is not neutered. From what I've read I've decided to wait until he's closer to 2 years of age. As for proper socialization, and letting my dog romp around with other dogs; everything I've read (which I consider truly informative) states that dogs should not be allowed to do this. Example, your dog should not be allowed to say hi to mine, or go play b/c in dog society this would never happen. Dogs are pack animals and other dogs are not part of our pack. Any communication that is not taken through the appropriate channel, the Alpha is unacceptable. This to me makes the most sense. I don't have any answers for you other than what's already been given, but I do have some questions. What have you read that indicates they should not be neutered until 2? Also could you give me a reference for what you've read about dogs not being allowed to play together? AAAAnd.....what do you consider a "communication through the appropriate channel? Thanks! I hope that's not too much... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 Example, your dog should not be allowed to say hi to mine, or go play b/c in dog society this would never happen. Dogs are pack animals and other dogs are not part of our pack. Any communication that is not taken through the appropriate channel, the Alpha is unacceptable. This to me makes the most sense. There are varying opinions on this as well as so many other aspects of dog training and ownership. Quinn for example has his own little pack but he also has a good number of friends -- human and canine that he enjoys seeing and interacting with. I'm not doing much in the dog world anymore but when I was, it wasn't unusual to let friendly, interested dogs say hi or to let them loose to sniff around or play together in certain settings. I do think it needs to be by mutual agreement of the humans and if the dogs are ok with such things. My Shelties for example were never much for saying hi to dog or human and the Lhasa only does it if he thinks it will score him a cookie for "being nice." But definitely I'm not a fan of dogs running up to each other in uncontrolled settings. To constantly feed him small portions for a set time, then gradual increase the time and close the proximity with another dog. The goal is to feed Dante and a stranger dog side by side, without either paying attention to other. This is what I was able to find out yesterday. Anyone with experience try this approach? Click to Calm and Control Unleashed are the two books that immediately come to mind. I really like Click to Calm though I know some prefer the author's approach in Control Unleashed. There is also some discussion of this sort of issue in Susan Garrett's Shaping Success though the book focuses on training an over the top, intense dog for agility. Still, many of her techniques to calm Buzz so he could focus on agility could be used for reactive issues. I think temperament plays a huge role in these issues in addition to early experiences. I have three dogs with roughly the same sort of upbringing as far as getting out and about from a very early age and all three are very different in how they respond to strange people and dogs. From sweetly shy to grumpy to sweetly friendly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet_ceana Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 In defense of OP's decision to wait on nuetering there is research to suggest that waiting until a dog's joints are fully grown can help prevent sports injuries later in life. I am not sure what else OP read, but we waited until Ceana's joints had finished developing before her spay. At what age to spay/nueter is a decision on when you are comfortable with the procedure as long as you are willing to be extra dilligent in making sure that your pup does not reproduce. That said, we still had Ceana around other dogs to socialize her. As long as you know no one is in heat you should be fine. As far as the alpha discussion goes Shetlander summed it up fantastic! As someone who has a fear aggressive dog I can only advise you to try everything positive that you come across until you find what works for your dog. For us, adding a second dog helped significantly, although it did not make the problem disapear completely. Heck, we are going to try putting her in obedience class later this month. Ceana is a very obedient dog, and can do a lot of the things they teach, but we are hoping that class teaches her to relax around other pooches. My bossy Poke has learned that he doesn't have to try and control every dog through class, why not see is Ceana can get something positive from the experience as well? Try to be open to different ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 This past weekend we had a dog walk where a bunch of owners and their dogs came. Are SAR group had a booth. Dante was fine for the first hour or so, but became agitated with other dogs. He was fine with the dogs around our group. You had him out for too long and he got stressed. In a situation like this, I'd have a "safe" place where I could crate him and he could relax. I'd probably have him out for 15 min, then crate him away from the activity for the next 15 or 20 min. I'd guess some of your issues are coming from the fact that he is young, a bit afraid, and not sure how to deal with the mental pressure of being around other dogs. When he is working, he has that to focus on and channel his drive into. But just walking around, he doesn't have a channel for his drive and he isn't focused on you (quite possibly through a fear issue). I've got a dog like that - also in training for SAR . The "click to calm" book is a very good read to help understand how to teach your dog to relax - with is very helpful in overcoming the fear issues. What I'd do is enlist the help of a couple of SAR teammates and work on focus and relaxing with other dogs around. Take your yummy, high value treats and go through basic obedience work with other dogs at a distance. If he is too distracted by other dogs, increase your distance. Gradually work your way closer over several sessions (it could take several weeks, depending on your dog). Keep your sessions short and end on a positive note. If you can, repeat 3-4 short positve sessions (5 min max) in a day. Remember to keep it upbeat and fun and always end on a positive note - set him up to be successful! What I found out yesterday was two things, perhaps their is some confusion in Alpha leadership, which I must reestablish, and secondly is the slow introduction to dogs in a social setting, by using some extremely persuading food source, like cheese or meat. I don't know as I'd say that there is confussion in leadership as much as the fact that he is still young and lacks some confidence. A calm, confident, upbeat "leader" can be a real confidence booster to a dog that lacks confidence. Basiclly confering to your dog, "I've got this under control, you can trust me". And part of this is making sure not to push your dog to hard/fast (like at the demo). Positive experiences build confidence, just like negetive ones destroy it. FWIW, given a choice, I wouldn't neuter a dog before 18 months. And my dogs don't play with other dogs on a regular basis either. I want them to be relaxed and comfortable around other dogs, and don't mind a occassional "hello" or romp with another friendly dog when they're not in training or working, but otherwise I'd just as soon that they ignored other dogs and get their social interaction from each other and me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alonzo Terrell Posted May 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 I did not say you want your dog to romp around with other dogs, what I was saying is that interations with other dogs can cause fear aggression issues, especially if the dog has had a negative interaction. At a year old, your dog is going through major changes in his maturity and the way he copes with different stimuli. Desensitization and focus training would help you a great deal. Good luck. I didn't see that (i.e.) you had about socializing. Sorry. Thanks for the advise. I don't have any answers for you other than what's already been given, but I do have some questions. What have you read that indicates they should not be neutered until 2? Also could you give me a reference for what you've read about dogs not being allowed to play together? AAAAnd.....what do you consider a "communication through the appropriate channel? Thanks! I hope that's not too much... I'm not too sure why you've posted your little roll eyes smile face, but to answer your questions: If you have internet or have spoken with different working dog handlers, some promote the idea of waiting to neuter for various reasons. I decided to wait based on hearing that a dog has better protection drive if you wait. I don't want to use my dog primarily as a protection dog, he's a border collie not a fighting dog, however I've been robbed a few times and I like the idea that my dog might dissuade some individual if ever the situation arose. I've gathered a lot of information from Ed Frowley who owns leerburg kennels. I don't agree with everything he says but there's quite abit of truth in his arguments. Ed looks as dogs as there coming directly from nature and should be treated accordingly. Dogs are pack animals, that's a fact. Allowing dogs to have many friend dogs, running loose in dog parks, saying hello in the park is not a characteristic found in nature, they're going to attempt to establish a hierarchy. Having dogs that are nice, and polite in all situations is a human rule we've applied to our possessions. Ed has some interesting articles that dead with these issues. Just what I've read. "communication through the appropriate channel" I like words - this was the way I worded this. My dog is not allowed to communicate with anything, human or animal, without first looking to me. I'm supposed to be the alpha, therefore my dog should respect my status and not take it upon himself to make his own introductions. Thank you everyone for the advice. Maralynn, I kind of thought this at the time, but I think you're a 100% right about having him in the setting for far too long. I'll check out that "Click to calm" book. Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herdcentral Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 Dante is not neutered. From what I've read I've decided to wait until he's closer to 2 years of age. As for proper socialization, and letting my dog romp around with other dogs; everything I've read (which I consider truly informative) states that dogs should not be allowed to do this. Example, your dog should not be allowed to say hi to mine, or go play b/c in dog society this would never happen. Dogs are pack animals and other dogs are not part of our pack. Any communication that is not taken through the appropriate channel, the Alpha is unacceptable. This to me makes the most sense. Desensitizing does make sense, and I agree with you there. SAR handlers tend to be on their own when training dogs. Dante has no difficulty training for SAR in the company of many dogs. He's focused and ready to work, when the harness is on. The problem is just the walking around. There shouldn't be other dogs roaming freeing on an incident, however I want to avoid any unnecessary looks if there was. What I found out yesterday was two things, perhaps their is some confusion in Alpha leadership, which I must reestablish, and secondly is the slow introduction to dogs in a social setting, by using some extremely persuading food source, like cheese or meat. To constantly feed him small portions for a set time, then gradual increase the time and close the proximity with another dog. The goal is to feed Dante and a stranger dog side by side, without either paying attention to other. This is what I was able to find out yesterday. Anyone with experience try this approach? Yes I have tried the desensitising approach and found it to work well with a reactive dog I once owned. Take it slow and always work within your dogs comfort zone or he will be too stressed to learn. My dog learned to focus on me in stressful situations and eventually started to relax in the prescence of her triggers. With my recently new puppy I have been making efforts to socialise her with dogs outside her pack in a controlled way with socially aware dogs or other puppies that she can play with and learn good interaction skills. She is fine within my pack but we live in a society where I would prefer my dog to learn how to deal with unexpected doggy situations outside her pack as well. In most situations I am happy for her to ignore other dogs and focus on me but I have also encouraged her in certain situations to learn to play with other dogs that I consider suitable. I have found that this interaction has helped to build her confidence. I think not doing this early enough with the reactive dog I owned was half the problem I encountered with her further down the track. My current 14 month old BC is very skillful socially outside her pack and is very reliable in all unexpected situations, such as loose dogs, running screaming toddlers etc. I put this down to a combination of an exceptional temperament and very good early and continuing socialisation outside the confines of her pack. As to neutering, I am happy to neuter my dogs at 11-12 months of age when most of their growing is done. All my dogs have been protective of my home and car. Any robber would be greeted with some very feisty barking! This includes my BC who absolutely loves people. She has a different approach though to univited people lurking around my property, she seems to be able to assess the difference. And she has two ACDS to back her up. The best protector dog I ever owned was neutered at 6 months old. She saved me from a potential assault with no hesitation and complete disregard for her own saftey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 A couple things that I'd like to comment on... I decided to wait based on hearing that a dog has better protection drive if you wait. I don't want to use my dog primarily as a protection dog, he's a border collie not a fighting dog, however I've been robbed a few times and I like the idea that my dog might dissuade some individual if ever the situation arose. Just remember that from a SAR perspective you still need him to be social with people. Just a barking dog will dissuade most robbers. My dog is not allowed to communicate with anything, human or animal, without first looking to me. I'm supposed to be the alpha, therefore my dog should respect my status and not take it upon himself to make his own introductions. One other thought from a SAR perspective. My dog needs to be able to interact with team members. He needs to be able to take commands and possibly corrections from them if the need arise and also be able to be handled by them for things like crating. Also, my dog gets rewarded by the victim, so playing and interacting with others is a must. I want a dog who is social with people! Time spent training and interacting with your dog builds the best bond with him. My older dog will play with anyone who will throw the ball, and loves to say "hi" to people. But she still listens and responds to me when I say something and there is no doubt that her universe revolves around me. Most Border Collies have a strong desire to please their owner - you feed them, you train them, you control the good things in life. All that gives a dog a very good sense of who is in charge, especially in a breed that tends to be very focused on their person. I want my dog to be aware of me and attentive to my commands, but I also want him to be able to show some initiative and think on his own in certain situations without always needing to check in with me when he's working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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