Belgian Shepherds

[kajarrel]

We recently lost our much loved GSD to a ruptured splenic tumor at 8 years old. This is our second shepherd that's died at this age. Thus, we're looking for a dog with a similar personality to the GSD as a "sidekick" for the border collies, but without its health problems. I don't need a LGD, but do like having a protective animal around since we're pretty rural and conduct our (often me, alone) sheep business on the farm. Ralphie (our shepherd) would also do a little herding - nothing like our border collies mind you but, in a pinch, he would move the sheep into the barn, etc. My husband liked how Ralph would always be at his side while he was doing chores. Anyone have experience with the Belgian Shepherds? We're looking at an 11 month old rescue Malinois right now. I'd appreciate hearing experiences with herding, biddability, problems, reputable breeders . . . Suggestions for another breed?

 

Thanks!

 

Kim

[SoloRiver]

I have met VERY few sane ones. What most Border Collie people would consider pathological behavior, Belgian people consider "breed typical behavior" or so it seems. A lot of them are spooky. They're really mouthy, which you either like or you don't. I've seen a couple that would have been fun to train on sheep and a few others that looked like they really wanted to eat sheep.

 

If I remember correctly the breed standards say something like "always in motion unless commanded to be still" and from what I've seen it's true. I don't think I could live with one. I like my dogs to have an off switch.

[stockdogranch]

Ditto the "always in motion" part--for both the Mals and the Black ones (and the Tervs, for that matter) that I've encountered...

A

[1sheepdoggal]

I have lived with GSD's all my life, truth is ya wouldnt ever catch me without one next to me. I have had experience with mals, and my experience is that they are like a GSD on cocaine. I have worked with them for personal protection, and though they are good at biting, they really dont have the same good head on thier shoulders as a GSD. They tend to be more reactive without thinking or looking at a situation before jumping in. As far as stock work goes, I have seen them attempt to work, but have very little want to do much with stock except chase and bite. They have a very high prey drive.

Having said that, I have met a few, that have been nice dogs to be around, but I feel that they were more the excetion, as well as being the product of an owner with an intimate knowledge of the breed. Some have excelled ( to some degree) in AKC herding events, but personally, I would stick with a well bred GSD any day of the week, simply because I think they are a more thoughtful well rounded and trustworthy dog.

[sheepandakom]

A woman I used to train (obedience) with had some very nice mals. Two were from American show lines and the other was a Belgian import. She does AKC and AHBA herding with them. I do think her dogs are the exception though. I had a female mal/bc mix for a while. She was very independent and was more interested in killing the sheep than herding. When she started climbing the fence to go after the sheep I found her a new home in town. My ex's dad used to train police dogs and would often go down to the Marine base and train with their dog handlers. He said the mals they had would bite and not let go and that they were pretty neurotic.

 

Emily

[kajarrel]

This does not sound good. Part of what we liked about Ralph was his friendliness - he would let us know if something worried him and would protect, if necessary, but was not threatening to people who routinely visited the farm. Although he had a high drive, he also tried so hard to please. I guess it might be worth it to look at this particular dog, but sounds like the BSD breed might not be the way to go. Funny thing was our first GSD was poorly bred - a woebegone rescue from a farm. He had terrible, terrible hip dysplasia. Ralph came from very good lines (came from the local police dept - we talked to his trainer there extensively before adopting him) and he ended up dying from another typical GSD problem, again, at a relatively young age. It's so painful to have them die so soon . . . (bad enough you loose your border collie in their teens). Is this, in your experience, inescapable, 1sheepdoggal?

 

Kim

[1sheepdoggal]

Inescapable?? I think yes, to some degree, but its also got a lot to do with picking a breeder that has done thier home work. I have to admit, that the GSD breed as a whole still has a miriad of medical problems that a good ( working) breeder ( one not breeding for show quality) will have better eliminated for the most part in thier lines, but nothing is fer sure when it comes to living beings. My boy is 8 1/2 yrs old now, and healthy as a horse, and has been all his life. He has a strong constitution, and has even been able to pull through and survive a terrible poisening. He has been the best GSD I have ever had for soooo many reasons, and it breaks my heart to know that I neutered him before I ever got a pup from him. (didnt want BC/GSD puppies) and his dam has passed and sire is to old for breeding now. He is half German lines and half American bred. I tend to pick German bred dogs/lines over American dogs simply because I feel that when it comes to the practical breeding of a sensible working GSD, the Germans are still breeding for the over all dog. If youd like I can send you some links to some good working breeders. The dogs are a bit pricey, but, ya get what ya pay for. What area are you in and I can try to send those that are in your area.

[kajarrel]

Yes, please do send the links. We're in Central New York state but would be willing to travel pretty much anywhere in the North East to get a good dog.

 

Ralphie was from German lines. Up until this, he was great . . . I honestly thought we'd loose a couple of our border collies before Ralph. I know there are no guarantees, but this was quite a blow (his belly blew up in the late morning, I took him to the vets, I had a lamb customer during all this so went home, got a phone call to come back and we put him done that evening). Thanks so much! Kim

[dali]

I live in Belgium, I am Belgian and I've grown up with Belgian sheperds. We've always had them.

But my husband and son wanted something different, so we now have a BC.

 

I'll have one again anytime , but I have no experience with sheep ....or any other advise to give. My heart would overrule common sense probably..

 

I've just always loved them , but I've always been around them. I feel very "connected" with them, sorry I have no other word to describe that.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I wouldn't mind haven't a Terv someday if I had to pick from the shepherd-y type breeds. The ones I've met have been much more sensible than their more fruity breed cousins. they need a lot of distance before they are comfortable with the simplest tasks and that goes for all of them, I think - it's just with the Tervs you have some time to think.

[KrisK]

The Tervs I know are really nice dogs. All of them compete in competitive obedience, agility and Rally. One of the nicest ones I knew died of cancer at 7. He was one of the friendliest fellows I'd ever met. The only experience I have with a Malinois was a dog who had been very, very well trained in SAR and it died suddenly at 9 years old. It was a very nice dog as well. Maybe the breeding lines in Canada are different since neither breed seems to be overly popular here.

[kajarrel]

Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond. Your comments and suggestions were (as usual) very helpful. Kim

[Lenajo]

I work with quite a number of the Belgians and GSDs in herding. I can refer you to some great GSD breeders of sound sane dogs I could live with and enjoy. I wouldn't take most of the Belgians a I see as a gift with a check attached.

 

My general opinion based on my experiences:

 

Tervurans are the best of the lot but they tend to be reactive. Good breeding helps, really good socialization. Don't seem to have the "nerve" of a GSD. Often they are sound and motion sensative, quick to bite what they don't understand. Seen some really nice ones, but again, nothing on a good working bred GSD. Show oriented breeding has dumbed the Terv. down considerably. For the average person who likes Belgian breeds the best choice of the types.

 

Bel. Shepherds were flighty, soft, and often lacked drive. Seen less aggressive than the Tervs but more phobias. Often bred to be extremely large (fad??) and "black dog syndrome" seems to complicate getting the public to help you deal with the prominent socialization and phobia issues.

 

Malinois are feral cats on crack in a dog body made of steel belted radials and industrial springs. Reactive aggression "bite first, think later". Seen some horrific spinal problems in some supposed high quality imports from home country. Stay away from military and guard dog lineage, stay away from French Ring lineage unless you are a really good trainer that can out think and out plan a collie mind with a switchblade fetish. Show lineage seems to be erratic - from aggressive to dull - not sure where you'd go there.

 

Not my favorite group of breeds. I admire owners who stick with them and get them trained though.

[ItsADogsLyfe]

I've owned several GSDs in the past. Icon, the last one lived to 81/2 and died before I could get him to the vet. I'm not sure exactly what he died from. Satchmo, one I had before that died at 15 1/2. Icon was from import parents, German and Chech lines. I bought him from a man who trained police dogs. Satchmo was from German lines and was fairly small. He was was a cryptorchid though so I always wondered if he had been a bit stunted from lack of hormones. When they neutered him at 1 year they had trouble finding the testicles they were so atrophied. Neither ever suffered hip dysplasia or anything else for that matter.

I've had a bit of experience dealing with Belgian Sheepdogs (the black ones) on sheep. A woman used to bring her 3 to me to work with. Out of the 3 only one showed any potential and I didn't really get to work with her long enough to see how far she would go. She was already 3 yrs and bit spoiled too. Of the tervs I've seen work I haven't been very impressed. The Mals just seem way too hyper and aggressive.

I think when I have some land and sheep again I will probably get another GSD. They used to be "MY" dog before I got Border Collies.

Sorry this probably isn't too much help..

[Anda]

Slightly off topic.

 

A friend of mine is looking into getting a Dutch Shepherd puppy - I had not heard of this breed before, but I looked it up online and they seem something between GSD and Belgian Shepherds, with a brindle coat. Has anyone had any experience with this breed? They cannot have GSD in their apartment due to breed restrictions, but they were told a Dutch Shepherd would be allowed, since they are not specifically GSD. Are they hyper? I know he considers Ouzo very hyper (I don't ) and he wants a relatively calmer dog

[kajarrel]

Anda,

You're absolutely on topic. We're not jumping into the decision and, as I wrote ealier, I'm looking at all our alternatives right now. Kim

[SoloRiver]

Jesus, if he thinks Border Collies are too hyper a Dutch Shepherd is a terrible idea. Most of them are bred for police and protection work, and are very high drive. If he wants a calm dog he should not be looking at any of these breeds. How about a Smooth Collie? In my opinion, Smoothies are the great unsung family dog breed. Smart enough to be interesting (to the average pet owner), sweet, relatively low maintenance coat, kinda cool looking.

 

Regarding Malinois, there is a flyball team in this area that has mostly Mals on it. They make for a pretty scary picture when you see them coming.

 

I think your best bet for finding a nice Belgian would be to go through rescue and find an adult of known temperament that they consider NOT to be "breed typical" or to be lacking drive. It seems like in Belgians, what owners and breeders call "drivey" dogs are actually nervy and spastic. That said, I have known one Terv who is a very, very very nice dog I would be happy to live with. Wonderful temperament, excellent dog communication skills (he is a huge intact male, and Solo thinks he's OK), athletic, willing, and very talented on sheep at beginner levels anyway. UKC registered, a color that is not favored in AKC (grey, which I think is absolutely gorgeous, he looks like a wolf), nice off switch, not mouthy. If they were all like him, I'd consider one but unfortunately he's the only one I've ever seen that nice.

[Lenajo]

Melanie was that dog by chance, from North Carolina and named Bravo? There can't be 2 of them that nice!

[SoloRiver]

Nope, he's from Michigan and his name is Encore. However, I believe he does live in NC now.

 

I know one other Terv from the same breeder that is also a very nice dog, but VERY busy (perpetual motion, yep) to the point that he makes me very tired. And given that I live with three Border Collies, that's saying something.

[Shetlander]

I've known a couple super nice Tervs that used to come to my club. I was very fond of them and would have taken them home any day. But that never came to pass so I can't comment on day to day life with them. I think there is a very high rate of epilepsy in Tervs at least which was a big reason I lost interest in the breed. At one time, I had considered owning one.

 

I've heard the Black ones can be pretty hyper/neurotic/spooky/aggressive but I've never spent any time with one. I've also never known a Malinois personally. I only hear the stories of "Maligators" and they sound horrendous as far as being hyper, biting, neurotic, reactive, destructive and slow to mature. On the other hand, they seem to be popular for police work right now so maybe with a certain kind of training (and locking them in a kennel at night ), they're ok.

 

But then lots of people think Border Collies are hyper, neurotic and destructive.

[NRhodes]

There's a woman not far from me who raises the black Belgians. She brought a couple out to try them out on some little calves and they seemed like very relaxed, easy going dogs, very obedient. They were so so as far as working went but at least they were interested in doing something. They just didn't seem to have any notion to cover the stock. I think she does a lot of tracking training with them or something.

[Riley-dog]

I know one Malinois and I'd take him home in a heartbeat. He's an intact male and lives on a small horse farm with a neutered GSD. No signs of aggression whatsoever in this dog. He's polite in his greeting but not overly affectionate until you've really gotten to know you and then he'd love to climb into your lap but his good manners prevent him from trying. Extremely biddable. But like I said, I only know one! I know he was very well bred, I think he was purchased in the Oregon area? I could be wrong though.

[pandabear]

We have a Terv and he is over 15 years old. When he crosses over to Rainbow Bridge we will look for another one. Hopefully in rescue...he has been a terrific dog but admitedly his first two or 3 years were very trying. We blame ourselves as we did not realize the high energy level of the breed. However once my husband got him into tracking work he became a stellar dog. He just needed to use his brains....they are a healthy breed...he still wants to go for his walks albeit much shorter now. They are stunning to look at...I also have a good friend with a Terv who is an assistance dog and has done wonders for her...we trained alot of with Mals and Groedaels and found them all to be highly intelligent, have NEVER met an agressive one although folks here on the board have. I guess we have been lucky. Ours loves dogs, cats, adores children and humans of all types...

 

 

 

Anyhow my two bits worth.