Jump to content
BC Boards

Bossy Bitch


Journey
 Share

Recommended Posts

OK, I could use some suggestions iow "help"..

 

I have a very keen 2 yo that will-not-shut-her-mouth when dogs are working and she's not. She's fine when she is not contained or tied out. Otherwise she runs her mouth (bad). I've tried, crates, she can hear things just fine, putting her up out of site, still can hear whistles, tying her she eats through all but "chain" in which we're about to break teeth...if I leave her loose she'll lay and watch and creep and creep and creep (stay is still a four letter word to her). If you smack the ground in front of her she's bites whatever you smacked the ground with......I've tried bitter apple, binaca, ugly noises, snatching and scruffing her, smacking the pole she's tied, citronella collars too etc.....What I won't do is beat the tar out of her and she knows it!

 

On her behalf though is that she can only work 2 or 3 days a week. She doesn't open her mouth in "any" other situation at all. I've been told she'll get better and "this" screeching/barking is appropriate "cause she wants to work" but it's driving me nuts and everyone we work with! Any thoughts other that beating her :rolleyes:

 

Thanks!

 

Karen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sounds like maybe you should try a bark collar. I've used this one --

 

http://www.petedge.com/Innotek-Smart-Dog-N...lar-ZX94115.pro

 

and like that it has progressive corrections levels - the first one is really small (I know this personally :rolleyes: )

 

I've used it on a pretty soft natured dog with no ill effects too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh do I feel your pain. I have a couple that are the same way. One however, doesnt make a sound, she just makes quick work of what ever you tie her with, or breaks teeth. One time, I tied her to a outside water spigot that had a hose attached to it, tied her on a chain. She deducted real quick that she couldnt chew through the chain, surveyed the situation, figured out that if she chewed the hose off up by the spigot, that she could slip the chain over it and get away to the sheep, and thats exactly what she did! The other I have a bark collar on her like what Robin has suggested, and its a good collar and works well, but this particular dog has figured out the varying degrees of shock per how many barks she can get away with before she has to get a real good shock. So, she can get away with 2 barks, wait 5 minuets and get 2 more barks wait 5 mineuts.....you get the picture. What I saw work a few weeks ago, was I had her to a friends place and we were working dogs, I had tied her and she started to bark. Julie beat me to it, and snarled at her before I did, and low and behold, she shut up! Maybe you can get someone else to catch her and tell her off and see how she handles that. I know it not only worked for her, but another dog I had there as well. The collar limits the barking to some degree, but for her it hasnt stopped the barking completly. I think its going to take a hand held control device that I can nail her with "every" time she barks to make any progress with her. Good luck, if you come up with any thing that works, Id like to hear about it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Julie beat me to it, and snarled at her before I did, and low and behold, she shut up! Maybe you can get someone else to catch her and tell her off and see how she handles that.

 

Ha, Ha....one of the others fusses at her and she stops, lays down, and that lasts "maybe" 2 minutes! Really irks me too as she will at least acknowledge their displeasure, me - I'm just a gnat in her face. Interesting about your one figuring out the hose and the frequency on the collar, me thinks I have her twin!

 

Robin, thanks for personally testing the collar :rolleyes: I'll have to look into that and maybe buy more "beer"!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It surely is hard to try to stay one step ahead of these dogs some days! :rolleyes: Ya think you've finally got it down to a science, and then another comes along and blows the whole shebang!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had 2 pups that barked. It was a heck of a walk back to correct them and by then they weren't doing it. I put a bark collar on each one, 1 one day and the other the next. They don't bark anymore and 1 day stopped them both. I think I might have had to do it again about 4 monts later but not anymore. if you think that sounds bad...what do you think all you've tired is? I used the 12 level one. Never had to go beyond level 2 as I remember. It was self resetting and self correcting, I don't recomend e collars for training but I don't compare the 2. an E-collar is timed by you....I dunno about you but I'm just not that good.

 

I'd rather have to shut one up than have one not interested. Keeness is good!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd rather have to shut one up than have one not interested. Keeness is good!

 

I'd rather not have to but the keeness is better than the alternative! Strangely though, when I do take her to work, after running her mouth, she's not nuts, she really just wants to work and thinks it should be her turn "all" the time. And, she's a blast to work!

 

I will see about borrowing a regular bark collar and see what we get. I'll look into the other collars as well. I am just looking for ideas and thoughts that may help. Thanks for the suggestions!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you only learn one thing from my stupidity, it is "DO NOT USE A SHOCK COLLAR"- Oh I can not stress this enough. I know how you are feeling, but please......please.... do not do this. I had a very HARD dog that would NOT lie down. I borrowed a shock collar, way back in the olden days. I had tried various methods for the "hard dog" scruff talking. I would take her by the neck and say "LIE DOWN" she flipped me the paw. My last resort was the shock. NEVER NEVER NEVER do this on herding. She would not look at sheep for months. She ran away, the only way to tell where she was, was to zap her again- oh how I hated that. My poor gal. Please.........do not repeat my mistake.

Dianne

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ive not had a dog loose any of its keeness or want to get out there and work because they have been self corrected with a bark collar for barking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not to worry, as I said before I will not beat the tar out of her, nor will I use an E Collar (this is not a life or death issue). A straight forward bark collar I may look into. I too think this is a matter of lack of work and keeness, maybe it will go away with more work (daylight savings is good for this!) maybe not but I like this girl and I will not squish her. Could be it's just time for me to get "very" serious about "stay" as she will be quiet when not contained or tied.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you only learn one thing from my stupidity, it is "DO NOT USE A SHOCK COLLAR"- Oh I can not stress this enough. I know how you are feeling, but please......please.... do not do this. I had a very HARD dog that would NOT lie down. I borrowed a shock collar, way back in the olden days. I had tried various methods for the "hard dog" scruff talking. I would take her by the neck and say "LIE DOWN" she flipped me the paw. My last resort was the shock. NEVER NEVER NEVER do this on herding. She would not look at sheep for months. She ran away, the only way to tell where she was, was to zap her again- oh how I hated that. My poor gal. Please.........do not repeat my mistake.

 

It was self resetting and self correcting, I don't recomend e collars for training but I don't compare the 2. an E-collar is timed by you....I dunno about you but I'm just not that good.

 

Dianne

Are you comparing the 2? I cut and pasted both our answers because I wanted to make sure the difference was noted. I would never use or recommend using an e-collar for stock training but a bark collar is not the same thing in my mind. Yes the same type punishment but there is no person on the other end of the bark collar and no sheep. I'm not sure about the levels of correction an e-collar have but the bark collar I used had different levels of correction. It would self regulate when they barked or didn't. You were the one dolling out the shock when you were working on your dogs down. That's the big difference in my mind. Plus there were sheep involved. it's a different thing altogether.

 

I had a dog way back when, she barked her head off when I went to sheep with other dogs. It was way before I knew about bark collars or even that I would have thought one OK to use. This poor girl never learned how to stop barking and at my hands I tried everything I knew. I look back on it and would call it abuse, I sure wish someone had told me about collars back then. We'd have both been much happier.

 

 

About the Journey's dog being ok when taken to sheep. Barking at the side lines can hype a dog up but they don't always take that to sheep with them. My keen young pup does not do good if she stands around watching other dogs work especially if they are really moving. It takes her a few moments to calm back down and that's all you get at a trial, so I keep her out of sight till it's her turn. I expect her to get better at this as she ages but till then it's easier to just keep her up. Same dog that had the barking issues. At the time she had the barking deal she was not old enough to go to sheep yet. She wasn't a baby but just a bit under 1. When she's using her head, she's beautiful on sheep.

 

Good luck and let us know when you find what works for her.

 

Darc, I didn't read all of your post last night. I have an old dog who barks for lots of things. I had the same thing happen to him. He'd wait just the right amount of time for the bark collar to reset it's self then he'd let out another bark. That was better than him barking his head off but funny to watch. He'd be sleeping in the sun, his clock would go off and he'd let out a bark without even opening his eyes. He's almost 12 and would still do the same thing now but it was never for sheep!

 

Kristen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After my really bad experience I don't think I would use a shock collar at trials. I did have one for back yard barking. I tried it on myself first. It wasn't bad. I finally returned it. Yes, I meant using it while working vs the bark collar. I'm sorry I wasn't explicit enough. But I still think they might associate any type of correction, especially before going onto the trial field as something negative. Most trials have another area where you can go "let off steam" with your dog. You can play frisbee or something before your run.

I might try it at home and see how it goes, but at a trial for the first time, whoa, that might be a bad thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After my really bad experience I don't think I would use a shock collar at trials. I did have one for back yard barking. I tried it on myself first. It wasn't bad. I finally returned it. Yes, I meant using it while working vs the bark collar. I'm sorry I wasn't explicit enough. But I still think they might associate any type of correction, especially before going onto the trial field as something negative. Most trials have another area where you can go "let off steam" with your dog. You can play frisbee or something before your run.

I might try it at home and see how it goes, but at a trial for the first time, whoa, that might be a bad thing.

 

I have to disagree with this. Border collies are smart enough to differentiate between a shock for barking and being left alone to work. They also can tell if the bark collar is actually on their necks. I wouldn't work the dog with the collar on, that would be silly.

 

As for playing frisbee or some such to blow off steam, this is frowned upon at most trials since it just winds up the other dogs that can see it. Besides, i want my dog to have all his physical ability and energy to use on the trial field. If he's too wound up to act right on the trial field, that's a mental (training) problem, not a "go run around and get tired first" problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have you ever tried the "3 strikes and your out" thing? That is, you warn her clearly twice then she goes to the car into a covered crate for 15 minutes. or whatever version of that works for you. Its extremely effective with many dogs that are barking because they want something. I'd take her to the car twice this way, then she'd say in the car for at least an hour.

 

The bad part here is you've got a 2 year long habit happening here...

 

The good part is she's a smart girl, and will get the connection quickly if you make it clear.

 

Obviously punishment hasn't worked so far, so I'd try appealing to her brain and her desire to be part of whats going on.

 

With a pup like her, I would have never let her watch others work until she was much older.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have you ever tried the "3 strikes and your out" thing? That is, you warn her clearly twice then she goes to the car into a covered crate for 15 minutes. or whatever version of that works for you. Its extremely effective with many dogs that are barking because they want something. I'd take her to the car twice this way, then she'd say in the car for at least an hour.

 

Tried that several times. She can still "hear" though. I've even closed the van and turned on the AC, played the radio and for the most part she's out of site (covered crate) still she serenades us.

 

The bad part here is you've got a 2 year long habit happening here...

 

Nah, not quite a year - didn't start her till she was 14 months :D

 

The good part is she's a smart girl, and will get the connection quickly if you make it clear.

 

That's what is frustrating me, she will acknowledge 2 others, not me though.

 

Obviously punishment hasn't worked so far, so I'd try appealing to her brain and her desire to be part of whats going on.

 

I will. I am going to leave her loose, work the "stay" and work "with" her instead of fighting her. Obviously, she's gotten the best of me and I won't allow emotions to come into play. I should be used to playing catch up with her :rolleyes:

 

With a pup like her, I would have never let her watch others work until she was much older.

 

Barn door is already open........next time I will know better!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Eh, I had this trouble with a couple young dogs. The one waiting in the dog box would bark while I worked the other, though the one in the box couldn't see the other dog work it could hear me. I used an e collar on the dog in the box, when it barked it got shocked. Only took one session. You won't hear a peep out of either of them now and no, it didn't affect their willingness to work in the least- there was no reason for them to associate the shock with the stock or with me, just with the action of barking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Shoofly' date='Apr 1 2008, 02:32 PM' post='227723'

As for playing frisbee or some such to blow off steam, this is frowned upon at most trials since it just winds up the other dogs that can see it. Besides, i want my dog to have all his physical ability and energy to use on the trial field. If he's too wound up to act right on the trial field, that's a mental (training) problem, not a "go run around and get tired first" problem.

I had a very excitable little gal. She could run for hours. I "welcomed a 300 yard outrun-LOL" Some trials I went to had a field across the grounds that you could go let off steam with- I would have NEVER done this around other dogs. That would have been disrespectful and downright rude. Believe me, I wasn't there alone. :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Compromise - it's working so far! I decided to let her hang with me on lead and she has agreed not to run her mouth or jerk me out of my shoes :rolleyes: So far so good. I am learning to work "with" her - sure beats a b**** battle (not sure which of us would win quite frankly) and some battles are not worth fighting!

 

Thanks everyone!

 

Karen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Karen, this compromise really sounds as if the dog is just getting what it wants, so sounds like less of a compromise and more like she's learning if she barks, you will come get her. That type of compromise is most likely gonna come back and nip ya in the butt.

If ya really want to make a compromise, make her stay quiet for 3 full mineuts, and then and only then, after she is quiet, take her out of the crate, or untie her. Keep her with you for a bit, then put her back and start to increase the time she needs to remain quiet before you take her out again. This method has worked for me with younger dogs, but some really have to bark them selves to sleep. I have been known to wait till they fall asleep and are quiet, and go wake them up and take them out of the crate. Ive only tried this method on young pups, before the barking has become a habit, and it make take some time for a real stubborn dog, but it has worked for me in the past. Its a lot of back and forth for me, so I chose to use a bark collar instead. ( on older dogs, not pups) It was a quicker way of doing things with less stress on the dog and the message was much clearer right off the bat, but if ya dont want to use one, this method may be of some use for ya.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Karen, this compromise really sounds as if the dog is just getting what it wants, so sounds like less of a compromise and more like she's learning if she barks, you will come get her. That type of compromise is most likely gonna come back and nip ya in the butt.

If ya really want to make a compromise, make her stay quiet for 3 full mineuts, and then and only then, after she is quiet, take her out of the crate, or untie her. Keep her with you for a bit, then put her back and start to increase the time she needs to remain quiet before you take her out again. This method has worked for me with younger dogs, but some really have to bark them selves to sleep. I have been known to wait till they fall asleep and are quiet, and go wake them up and take them out of the crate. Ive only tried this method on young pups, before the barking has become a habit, and it make take some time for a real stubborn dog, but it has worked for me in the past. Its a lot of back and forth for me, so I chose to use a bark collar instead. ( on older dogs, not pups) It was a quicker way of doing things with less stress on the dog and the message was much clearer right off the bat, but if ya dont want to use one, this method may be of some use for ya.

 

 

Yeah Darci, after reading your post you may be right.

 

I have not let her bark herself out of the crate nor off the chain. Makes no matter to her if I am there or not, if she's restrained she's a motor mouth. She had been corrected throughout the screeching, not let off to work. So, I "thought" we had a compromise, behave and you can hang with me. Me thinks I will have to rethink all of this, again. And these past few works were so nice and quiet....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I simply don't bring more than one dog at a time with me when I'm training/working. I'm not willing to put up with the distraction, so I choose to make the walk back to the kennel or house to change dogs. When I was starting (and before I made the decision to bring just one dog at a time) I had a young female that would bark when she was tied out watching other dogs. Nothing I did would stop this behavior. One day she was tied out next to an older bitch that was waiting her turn and was not tolerant of young, stupid dogs. The older one reprimanded the younger one, and the younger one never barked like that again. She acted effectively and with perfect timing... problem solved. The young one realized that she couldn't watch the work and the older dog at the same time. It also helps if you can re-frame how you look at the time you spend with your dog walking out to the work and back.

 

Ray

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...