Sheep, cattle, ducks...

[Liz K]

Hi, All!

 

I have a very intense female who will be starting USBCHA trials at the Novice/Novice level this year. We have done AHBA and ASCA trials for the past 2 years. We only have experience on sheep, primarily hair sheep with some exposure to dogs.

 

I have the opportunity to start working Haley on cattle and ducks, both of which are dog experienced and appropriate for a beginner dog. I have a volunteer trainer. All it costs is the cost of gas to travel a few hours. (Yeah, that's ALL (LOL!!), but if I share a ride with my trainer, it's only half of the total cost...)

 

Anyone have any experience in cross-species herding training? Do the things I've learned about sheep apply to ducks and cattle? Would it be more detrimental to try training on ducks and/or cattle? My biggest concern is potential for injury, but if I was on well behaved stock and had control of my dog, that would be minimized. Am I biting off too much? What do I need to know???

 

Any input (pro, con, or otherwise) on or off list is appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Liz

Haley (who would love to herd any animal, big, small, or in between)

Dryden (who couldn't care less about ducks but loves to think he could herd horses - I DON'T LET HIM!)

and Iago (who barks at sheep)

[juliepoudrier]

Liz,

The same basics (for the dog) apply across species, but each species reacts differently to being worked by dogs, and some species, like poultry, are much more fragile than others. Just as you have had to learn to read sheep, you will also have to learn to read cattle and ducks (although again, most of the pressure/release basics apply). You might find that Haley doesn't really want to work one or the other (or both) of those species. My main chore dog and open trial dog will work cattle or sheep all day long, but don't dare ask her to work ducks--she has absolutely no interest and will do so only when compelled by me and even then she lets me know she's not thrilled.

 

Cattle by their size alone can be more dangerous to both human and dog. They can and will kick, although well dog broke cattle are less likely to do so. Ducks are fragile--a dog who can grip a sheep without injuring it could inadvertently break a duck's neck for example. You could accidentally step on a duck and "break" it--something you're not likely to do with sheep, and certainly not with cattle. You don't have to worry about ducks running into you and injuring you as you might with larger species. Given enough pressure from the dog, generally all three species will either try to fight or flee. With ducks (unless they are a nonflying breed or they have had their wings clipped), they might take flight if the dog puts to much pressure on them. A dog who antagonizes (is too aggressive with) cattle, might easily have a fight on its hands, whereas with sheep the same kind of pressure might cause them to run into a fence instead (although sheep that are cornered will turn and fight).

 

Some generalities (rules to which there are always exceptions): Cattle don't flock the way sheep do, so your dog will have to be more proactive about tucking in the sides to keep the cattle bunched together (I've seen trials where the three cattle will take it into their heads to go in three different directions--something you rarely see when working sheep). While cattle can and will run, they tend to be slower to respond to the dog's pressure/presence. I liken working cattle vs. working sheep to working barges vs. working small rafts (it's not that the cattle aren't responding--it's just that they are bigger and so not quite as "reactive/mobile," for lack of a better word, and of course, calves, being smaller will react much more quickly than larger full-grown cattle--when I use the term react, I mean in the sense that if you are trying to put cattle back on a line, say, a crossdrive, from which they have drifted, then in general, getting them back on line will take a little more time and distance than it would for sheep on the same course). Ducks, by comparison, will react/move even more quickly than sheep (in general) in response to pressure from the dog (and human).

 

The things you've learned with respect to how stock reacts to pressure will apply across species (if you are in front of the animal's shoulder or catching the animal's eye, you are in a position to block/turn it; if you are behind the shoulder, the animal can pass on by you; heads/ears will generally tell you the direction the animal wants to take, etc.). You will just need to make adjustments to your approach to account for individual animals and some species differences.

 

Anyway, all you can do is go out there and try the other species and see how it goes!

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

As a novice, just bring the same open mind that allowed you to learn how to handle sheep, to the work you'll do with other species. Don't make assumptions and make sure you are alert for any signs that if things aren't going well, that maybe the type of pressure you are applying isn't suitable for the animals you are working.

 

Have fun! Ducks are a personal fav, they are so silly and cool.

[mbernard2424]

I've done two ASCA trials, one in February and one in March and will be doing one the beginning of May. We (my dog and I) ran on all classes of stock and had a ball! We work sheep and ducks on a regular basis so we had some very high scores at the trials, he now has his ATDsd titles (all six titles in six tries), but the cattle gave us fits because we do not have a lot of experience working cattle. We're getting it, slowly, but it takes time. All three classes of stock are quite different in how they move and react to the dog *and* the handler, something you need to remember when trialing in an arena. When trialing USBCHA, the handler's pressure doesn't come into play quite so much as it does in an arena.

 

I think when it comes to pressure, ducks behave very much like cattle do: you are as much pressure as the dog is, if not more so (depending on the ducks/cattle). Goats are another species that are fun to work if you can. I started my dog on ducks, then got goats, then sheep (we still have ducks and sheep) and now we are dabbling in cattle. With my seven month old puppy, she's started on ducks and sheep and in a month or so I plan to buy three goat kids to work her on. Goats teach a young dog to cover as they usually don't flock very well, just like cattle. Unless you put too much pressure on them, ducks flock quite well.

 

If your dog is willing to work sheep, ducks and cattle and you have proper instruction to get her going, then by all means, go for it!

 

What you've learned on sheep will help, but I think ducks, goats and cattle are all quite similar in how they work; sheep are the odd-balls out.

[Bo Peep]

Liz,

The same basics (for the dog) apply across species, but each species reacts differently to being worked by dogs, and some species, like poultry, are much more fragile than others. Just as you have had to learn to read sheep, you will also have to learn to read cattle and ducks (although again, most of the pressure/release basics apply).

Cattle don't flock the way sheep do, so your dog will have to be more proactive about tucking in the sides to keep the cattle bunched together (I've seen trials where the three cattle will take it into their heads to go in three different directions--something you rarely see when working sheep).J.

 

This is a great statement. Also, working with goats, they do not flock either. I tend to think that with a very strong eyed dog, cattle and sheep tend to work best, unless you can get them to work at a distance.

[1sheepdoggal]

Some collies wont even look at a duck or goat as some thing to work. Out of my 4 I only have one that will even aknowledge that a goat can be a source of working fun. I bought a small herd of goats last year so Id have some thing to use this spring while ewes were lambing, and none of my dogs would even look at them. I chased those goats around, and did everything I possibly could to get the dogs interested in working them, and all the while they ignored the goats and kept looking beyond them for the sheep! Needless to say, I sold the goats, and have wethered some ram lambs. Ive had my oldest to cattle twice over the years and both times, she wouldnt even look at them, but is as keen to work sheep as any good working dog. Good luck, I hope your dog takes to working different types of stock. Mine have decided they are sheep dogs and thats that.

[Liz K]

Thanks to everyone who responded! We get our chance in 12 days...If I did not fully trust my trainer, I would be worried, but all the responses have made me feel good about at least trying it in a controlled situation, as much as one can control training. Wish us luck - will update when we get back.

 

Liz, Iago, Dryden & Haley

[stockdogranch]

Coming in here late, but...Julie describes working cattle quite well. Ducks I know nothing about--my dogs refuse to acknowledge them as stock to be worked. The other thing with cattle is that there are at least a few dogs who do not have the "cojones" to work them, as they are much more intimidating than sheep. That and the dog must have both a nose and heel bite,

A

[Liz K]

Update on Haley's progress...

 

We got to work some very dog broke ducks yesterday. For a good 3-5 minutes, Haley was busy looking at the sheep in the fields behind and aside the duck arena. She would "come by" and "away to me" but kept looking for the sheep to gather for me. I even pointed at the ducks when they were moving, and told her that was what she was supposed to be working. She craned her neck around me and strained to find where the sheep were.

 

Finally, I thought, "This is it - the make or break." The ducks were on the move, I grabbed her collar and dragged her up to the last duck's tail. They scattered, and Haley's ears stood straight up. I could see the light bulb go off over her head. "AHA! THESE are what you wanted me to work. Okay!" And off she went. She gripped one because it wasn't moving fast enough (no damage, and a whack of the rattle paddle on the ground was enough to make her back off) but kept working them for about 10 minutes before I took her out.

 

Guess I now have a duck dog, too. Have not tried cattle yet. That opportunity may fall through until May.

 

I may try Dryden out on ducks again, too, just in case he does have an interest. About a year ago, he didn't. But I didn't take the time to see whether getting close to them clarified the situation for him - he reacted much as Haley did, looking for the sheep in the back field. If he doesn't, that's okay.

 

Thanks for the encouragement. Will check back to let you know how Dry's attempt at ducks goes next week.

 

Liz, Iago, Dryden, & Haley