River started Flyball

[RaisingRiver]

So, I personally don't have an appreciation of flyball. I prefer agility because I feel it's much more interactive with my dog - and because I'm not on a team with agility, I don't have to depend on anyone besides me and my dog.

 

However, because River is not enthusiastic about doing agility (one should never be able to run faster then their BC esp if they are competitive like I am) I thought I'd try something that she would be more interested in. She loves to fetch. At home before first class, I ran her over 3 jumps to fetch a dead ball which she did with glee and returned via jumps as well.

 

So today was our first class. We went over 1 jump which she of course did perfectly and she got on and off a box that were 2 different low angles. Having agility training definitely made us look like pros, hehe. I figure it will be another few weeks before we really get into things she'll have to think about, ie. new for her.

 

Anyhoo... that's the update. Diesel is currently not in agility class. Took a break from that - but he was doing very well - I just needed the break. So instead he and I are focusing on longer stays and tricks for the time being.

[Seelie Fey]

Hope you and River have a blast at flyball. I know my two dogs did. I am just the reverse of you - involved in flyball and wanting to get more consitantly involved in agility. I've dabbled a bit with training them for agility and there does seem to be a lot of "cross over" skills. I suspect any training improves the ability to pick up and respond to any other type of training.

[Northof49]

Lots of dogs really enjoy flyball - I look at it as a way to expend some energy, as it certainly doesn't take any brain powe on the part of the dog. We play it for fun and only enter one or two trials a year. Can't stand the noise and some of those teams take it waayy to seriously.

 

Just dont' let your dog become a barking lunatic - there is no need for it, and usually it starts to cross over into agility, obedience, etc.

[RaisingRiver]

Thanks for the comments. River only barks in alert at the house or in frustration when we do shaping exercises - so I don't think she'll be a barker - she's pretty focused when she's doing her 'jobs' .. So I should be good there, but the facility is indoor so maybe I'll bring some earplugs soon . As far as exercise, I live on 5 acres and River is a very laid back BC - so already in good shape there.

 

I guess it's more about finding something fun for one of my 'kids' to do... ok hehe, I'm officially a crazy dog lady.

[Millie&MeBC]

That's awesome! I've wanted to do flyball before. I hope you guys have a great time with it.

[shatchp]

Go River! I've seen her in action....definitely loves the fetch! Sounds like fun...

[RaisingRiver]

Shatchp!

 

How goes it?! My classes are in Portland - I had to park on the street, eek! I'm sooo not a city girl, HAHAHA.

 

Enjoy the coming spring!

[Ninso]

You might also want to try frisbee freestlye if River likes to fetch. It is interactive and not a team sport, like agility, but the dog gets to play with a toy like flyball.

[shatchp]

Hey RR...be thankful you're not a city girl! We urban BC folk long for the rural life... Is River going to try out for the Portland Tailblazers?

 

Ollie is great...maturing so quickly. He's 13-14 months now...and fetch-crazy as well. He has great technique. We've become so close, it's fun.

 

You have a good spring too! It hit me a week or two ago, walking out on the Sandy River delta w/ the dog, realizing it's 7 pm and I'm in shorts, the sun is out, and life is bright and good...for a few months at least.

[RaisingRiver]

No idea if we'll join up with anyone. The x-fidos team is who is teaching the classes. They are a laid back, emphasis on reliable rather then speed, bunch - and they do demo events that I'm encouraged to participate in. We'll see how it goes. My kids have such busy weekend schedules, I may never get to compete. I only did 1 agility weekend in the 4 years I took classes.

 

I've considered frisbee, but River only catches a floppy disk version (though with about 99% accuracy) and frankly, I can't throw a real frisbee, HAHA.

 

I was offended when the instructor told the class not to mind the Border Collies (there was a BC mix in class) because they're smart and catch on fast. Which I can see how that makes the other students feel less inept, but I've spent River's whole life training for attention and specific directions - mostly agility related - that her calm behavior and quick ability to learn has a lot to do with the training I've done with her and her specific nearly 2 yrs of agility training. Not every and any BC just learns - which is why there's tons of BCs in rescue of course. People pretty much tend to think they just train themselves proper manners.

 

The lady at the dog park last week asked me if I was a dog trainer, to which I said no. Then she said, yeah, well, those Border Collies are just so smart - implying that I must not have needed to train them all. UGH. Oh well. I know I'm fabulous

[aBC4me]

If anyone has any info on my finding a club here in Jax... I would love a PM.

 

Edited to say that I found one.

[RaisingRiver]

So... River is a Flyball flunkie, lol. The first few classes went well, then she decided she was clueless, so I borrowed a ramp to bring home and practice on. It worked well most of the week and had velcro to put a ball on so she could get used to that. Had her do 1 jump, swimturn, get ball, jump back over jump. We got to class this week and she was clueless dog again. Not sure if it was the environment or maybe subtle pressure from me.

 

The session is over and I don't think we'll continue. Ordered some regulation frisbees (we use floppy disc currently) and we'll play with that for a bit

[Bo Peep]

Wow- your terms are way beyond me. But I am thinking that you won't continue. Am I right? I wouldn't give up. I've done frisbee, but NEVER flyball, although I know MOST of our dogs would go nuts over the tennis ball. I say "keep going" Don't give up. You have a dog you enjoy, a sport you enjoy- go for it!!!

[RaisingRiver]

Well, flyball wasn't something I was really interested in. I tried flyball because I thought my dog would like it. Doesn't appear that she does. She LOVES to fetch, but she's not a 'I have to have a ball in my mouth at all times dog' - probably something I specifically trained her not to do, cuz I didn't want an obsessive dog.

 

I want River to want to be enthusiastic about something and flyball and agility just don't seem her thing. I think maybe frisbee will - at least distance/accuracy division because it's something we currently do at home, just with a floppy disc. So if I can get her to transition (ordered a very soft regulation disc) to which she was clueless to a regular frisbee before, then we have a game that she's gaga over.

 

I have plenty of space and interaction with my dogs on a daily basis, so I don't need a focused activity to 'wear them out.'

I don't make my kids do sports that they aren't crazy about. Why wouldn't I do that to my dogs?

[Root Beer]

I don't make my dogs do sports that they don't like, either.

 

I had my heart set on Dean being a Rally dog. He deplores Rally. We don't do Rally. He likes dancing and agility, so do I, that's what we do.

 

With so many different things to do, I like to find something that suits both me and my dog.

[Bo Peep]

I in NO means meant make your dog do something he didn't enjoy. I apologize if it came out that way.

[RaisingRiver]

Bo Peep,

 

I didn't think you meant to keep going with something my dog didn't like, just that you said 'don't give up' - which I'm not giving up as in defeated, just it isn't right for us

 

No worries

[MrSnappy]

She LOVES to fetch, but she's not a 'I have to have a ball in my mouth at all times dog' - probably something I specifically trained her not to do, cuz I didn't want an obsessive dog.

 

Actually, and no offense RR, but that has nothing to do with flyball. There are excellent flyball dogs out there that have exactly zero interest in the game of fetch. There are dogs who run because they like the reward at the end. There are dogs who run because they like the race. Ric almost never plays fetch and never has but consistently runs about 4 seconds in lead position ... "Fetch" and "flyball" absolutely can be mutually exclusive. It's really about breaking the game down into steps to achieve the result of performing them all, and practicing on a velcro board in your yard is only one tiny step in a much bigger game.

 

I want River to want to be enthusiastic about something and flyball and agility just don't seem her thing. (snip)

I have plenty of space and interaction with my dogs on a daily basis, so I don't need a focused activity to 'wear them out.'

I don't make my kids do sports that they aren't crazy about. Why wouldn't I do that to my dogs?

 

I totally agree - I wouldn't make my dogs do silly sports they didn't enjoy either. However, when you have a dog with as much drive and enthusiasm as River, and she seems to shut down in every sport you try, this is where you start asking if it might be you, and not the dog. And again, I am not trying to be offensive when I say this, but do you think it's possible that something in your relationship with River, or something you communicate to her when handling her, dampens her enthusiasm? Because I have met River, and I have a difficult time believing that she does not enjoy something as interactive and fast paced as agility or flyball I think once you mentioned you were very competitive ... do you think that maybe you out too much pressure on her and she buckles under it? Maybe you aren't enthusiastic enough? Maybe you over-handle?

 

You know they say 90% of the time problem is the handler not the dog. This is certainly the case for me - my dogs are grossly limited by my shitty handling in agility (the jumping in the air and screeching I do while running Piper is *definitely* my problem). Maybe River is trying to tell you something by shutting down?

 

Just something to consider before throwing in the towel.

 

RDM

[PSmitty]

JMO, but I don't think one session is enough time to say that River is clueless and doesn't get it. Are you sure you weren't expecting too much, too soon? It takes some dogs a long time to really perfect the turn. It can take even longer for them to completely understand the game. I actually thought about quitting with Alex in the beginning, because he was a fetching fool at home, but once in the flyball class atmosphere, he suddenly didn't show any interest in a ball. It was totally just him needing to adjust. He learned the techniques quickly from there, and then one day it just clicked. He understood the GAME! And this took months.

 

I make sure to tell everyone who starts our flyball classes (I'm an asst) NOT to expect to learn it all in one session. Or two or three, even. Many people quit when they realize it takes time and it seems boring to them, but getting the foundation right is important, and then we can move on to the fun stuff like passing and racing. Bottom line...it takes time and I don't think 5-6 weeks is long enough to tell whether River is going to get it. Did she seem to enjoy it while she was there?

 

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[airbear]

Wick should win "the long road" award for flyball! We actually started flyball training before agility, some 6 years ago, and at first, it was just too overwhelming (the people yelling, the box making a scary noise) and all she could do was trot around the perimeter nervously, ears flat back and eyes almost shut. We gave it a few years off and then tried again, in a quieter environment. She enjoyed the recalls, but still hated the box. Took some more time off, and just recently got back into it. She seems to have forgotten that she doesn't like the box, that she doesn't like to pass into other dogs, and she is running quite well. In fact, I think she might actually run in a tournament one day.

 

This is a high-drive, intensely ball-motivated dog, but she had some, er, demons, to exorcise before she could see the point of flyball. Now she genuinely seems to enjoy it, and while 6 years is an insane amount of time to wait for the lightbulb to turn on, just saying that sometimes, it does!

 

p.s. encouraged by this late-blooming interest in flyball, I tried her again on sheep. Sigh. No similar epiphany. Maybe give that another couple of years and we'll try again.

[RaisingRiver]

I am not offended. I am great at giving all kinds of advice. I can see clearly what many are doing wrong. But it's not something I see in myself much of the time.

 

I hadn't considered that flyball and ball crazy were exclusive. So I think RDM is correct there.

 

On that note, I'd like to point out that River only chases toys and Diesel. She doesn't chase cats, bunnies, sheep, squirrels, etc. (she wouldn't even look at the sheep that were 6 feet away this Easter). I specifically trained her not to chase because of my outside cats and other wildlife. It works great! She will retrieve a dead ball if I ask her, but she's not all that enthusiastic to do it.

 

River also does not allow me to get excited or touch her when she's 'working', ie. playing a game like fetch, or training for a skill like agility or a trick. She is ALL business. She has never been a 'goofy, I'm so excited I might pee my pants' kind of dog, even when she was a puppy. So when the trainer says call her through the jumps at flyball (something she knows how to do anyway) there's NOTHING I can do to make her do it any faster then a trot except throw a ball and then she blitzes. Apparently I'm NOT the coolest thing in the room.

 

Now I can probably build drive (something I didn't do as a puppy because again, didn't want a psycho-crazed BC that I created, ie. too much dog for me to handle) and even tried to build speed with tunnels, but again she ONLY blitzes through tunnels if she knows I'm going to throw the ball after and often anticipates.

 

It took me over a year of intermittent training to get River to shake her paw with me because she refused to look down at me picking up her paw and was offended I was touching her when she knew darn well we were 'training' something. Took both Jaida and Diesel only 5 mins to learn the same thing - so as a general rule I don't think my training methods are off base.

 

I do agree I am a huge problem. Especially because I know the things River CAN do reliably. Like practicing at home shouldn't be different then at flyball practice. She's not dog or people distracted. But she is ME distracted. I worked so hard on focus for agility that she's looking at me when she should be looking at the flyball 'box' that I'm tapping for her to get on.

 

It was a 6 week course and I missed one which is why I borrowed the trainer and practiced a week on our own. I totally shaped her to get all 4 paws and swimmer turn on the board. She was even fairly quick and loved that she got to chase a ball afterwards.

 

To be honest I wasn't feeling the instructor or class either - which I did post about her comment above - so maybe that wasn't much help. Oh yeah, River also had liquid poop in the 2nd class and I had to clean it up about 4 times (she was on leash, but I was listening and she went so fast... I wasn't mad, but I'm sure she felt my frustration). It was after that session that she became 'clueless' - like 'you want me to what? huh? what are you pointing at? my feet go where? can I just jump the jumps?

 

I'm also very impatient. I just wanna do it! And maybe I'm more excited about it then they are. I don't ever take it out on my dogs - I always just walk away from the task at hand or do something else instead. I KNOW my dogs love the 1-1 time with me. But I'd rather that time be spent with quality and not with me pretending not to be frustrated.

 

I also like to be the best in class. This was the first time I was not at the top of the class with any of my dogs. In fact, we were the worst team there - having gone backwards in progress. I definitely had shut down mid-way through class - when in the beginning I was all amped up and River was excited as we were warming up attention with tricks and stuff. Looking back, I'm sure I made all the difference.

 

Conclusion: We aren't pursuing flyball at this time because *I* am not ready.

[PSmitty]

To be honest I wasn't feeling the instructor or class either - which I did post about her comment above - so maybe that wasn't much help. Oh yeah, River also had liquid poop in the 2nd class and I had to clean it up about 4 times (she was on leash, but I was listening and she went so fast... I wasn't mad, but I'm sure she felt my frustration). It was after that session that she became 'clueless' - like 'you want me to what? huh? what are you pointing at? my feet go where? can I just jump the jumps?

 

I'm also very impatient. I just wanna do it! And maybe I'm more excited about it then they are. I don't ever take it out on my dogs - I always just walk away from the task at hand or do something else instead. I KNOW my dogs love the 1-1 time with me. But I'd rather that time be spent with quality and not with me pretending not to be frustrated.

 

I also like to be the best in class. This was the first time I was not at the top of the class with any of my dogs. In fact, we were the worst team there - having gone backwards in progress. I definitely had shut down mid-way through class - when in the beginning I was all amped up and River was excited as we were warming up attention with tricks and stuff. Looking back, I'm sure I made all the difference.

 

Conclusion: We aren't pursuing flyball at this time because *I* am not ready.

 

I have to agree that (at least as you've described it here), the "problem" does seem to be you. And I speak from experience, having ruined agility in a similar manner for my first dog. Because you can pretend to not be frustrated or stressed or impatient, but believe me...your dog is not fooled. She feels it.

 

If you absolutely cannot go into a class or sport with your dog, just for the fun of it, it's not worth it or fair to the dog, IMO. The whole idea should be for you both to have a blast (especially your dog), and if you don't have it in you to let your expectations and perfectionism (is that a word?) go, it's never going to work. Or it may work, but neither of you will enjoy it.

 

Unless you can change your attitude, I fear that none of your dogs will like agility or flyball. If it's not a big enough deal for you to work on this, then don't. But, I hope you can find something to do together with River that you'll both enjoy.

[MrSnappy]

She enjoyed the recalls, but still hated the box. Took some more time off, and just recently got back into it. She seems to have forgotten that she doesn't like the box, that she doesn't like to pass into other dogs, and she is running quite well. In fact, I think she might actually run in a tournament one day.

 

Tweed was TERRIFIED of the box. For months the box "shot" cookies at him until he came to look forward to the box rather than flee in terror. It took some doing though!

 

Unless you can change your attitude, I fear that none of your dogs will like agility or flyball. If it's not a big enough deal for you to work on this, then don't. But, I hope you can find something to do together with River that you'll both enjoy.

 

This sums up nicely what I was driving at. The reality is, if you are going to take on a sensitive dog and make her uber-responsive to your moods and changing weather - that's a huge responsibility. But you'll just keep getting dog after dog with the same "issue" unless you are flexible enough to adjust your handling style and your perception of the game.

 

Or get an Aussie instead. They are generally oblivious anyway ;-)

 

RDM

[2 Devils]

Tempe has issues in flyball. She is what we call in the Butterfly Field when she lopes to the box. She drives back to me though. Anyways, unless the stars are aligned she can shut down at any moment with "weird" things going on around the box cuz you know the box will eat you and throws things at ya. She knows the full game, has a pretty good turn and I sat her for 6 months and just this past weekend put her in 3 races (emergency backup situation). She did great still slow to the box but was not singing that lovely butterfly song in her head - you would have to see it to understand what I mean... She also looked like she had fun as she ran but was stressed being in the building at times. We are off to a seminar this weekend to hopefully to get some ideas on how to get her to forget the butterfly song.

 

Anyways, yes the handler is the problem MOST of the time. At times I am Tempe's biggest issue. She is very sensitive and I have to control my mood big time when working with her.

 

Unless you don't care about finding an activity that River truly enjoys doing, you will need to change your handling skills some. Just realize that some dogs need less competitiveness and more time to master the skills.

[RaisingRiver]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

 

I started agility 4 years ago with my GSD/Chow for FUN. But after 2 years it wasn't fun for me anymore, because I knew how to play the game, my dog knew what to do (except weaves) but she wasn't even remotely fast - and that became not fun for me, so we stopped. I guess I expected MUCH MUCH more from River because of course, she's a BC. She's supposed to run fast. She does everything else (except the slightly scary moving teeter) but not fast. And when I tried and tried to motivate her to go faster (using ball as reward) it wasn't really working, so I stopped taking classes.

 

In the end, I'd rather not do the activity then have a less then stellar relationship with my dog. So yeah, I need change my expectations before I continue with doggie sports.