Ace

[lrayburn]

Nellie is fear aggressive and does not do well at the vet's office. The vet staff cannot vaccinate her or draw blood for bloodwork at this point. We save most vet work for the rare moments when she has to be knocked out for stitches or x-rays and even then I have to help the vet staff sedate her.

 

She has a problem with a hind leg and we have been refered to an orthopedic specialist. However, the specialist will not be examine and manipulate Nellie without sedating her so my vet has prescribed Ace for this and subsequent vet visits. So, my question is, how safe and effective is Ace in this situation?

 

My vet feels it works well with dogs who were fear agressive but not with dogs that exhibit other types of aggression. If it would allow Nellie to get the basic and ongoing medical care that she needs without the anxiety and trauma that would be great. However, I have heard of dogs reacting badly to Ace and even dieing the first time it was given. If anyone has personal experience with Ace, I would really appreciate the input. I have been putting off scheduling this appointment because of my concerns but need to go ahead and get it done.

 

Thanks,

Lisa

[Laurae]

Taz does not tolerate ace well. He was given ace when he got x-rays at a year of age and it took a looooooong time for it to leave his system. He showed bizarro neurological symptoms, and it wasn't until well into the next day before he returned to normal. His littermate sister had no problems whatsoever, though, while his uncle does not tolerate ace well either.

 

Regardless, I would hesitate to use ace on any kind of fearful dog. My understanding is that ace immobalizes the body while leaving the mind completely intact. Rather than "relaxing," it seems this condition could be quite alarming and stressful to certain dogs.

 

I am not even close to being a vet or other type of medical professional, so I may be way off and will welcome responses by those with backgrounds in veterinary medicine.

[PSmitty]

I agree 100% with Laura. I would ask your vet for another sedative. Ace is NOT an anti-anxiety medication. It simply renders the dog physically unable to respond or react to stimulus. Think about a fearful dog and how that might affect them.

 

Jack was given ace when he needed a broken toenail taken care of it. Never again! He was a zombie for two days. At first he couldn't move at all. He laid on the couch for hours with his eyes wide open, unable to relax or sleep, yet couldn't move. He moaned, cried, whined (stuff he never does regularly) for no reason. Even as he started to come out of it, I wouldn't leave him alone with my other dogs, because he seemed very leary/fearful of them, which is completely out of character, and I didn't want him to end up attacking them. I can't even accurately describe it, let me just say it was bizarre and I never want to see him like that again.

 

Just my personal experience, I've heard of some people who have used it with no issues. But none of my dogs will ever have it again.

[Lenajo]

Regardless, I would hesitate to use ace on any kind of fearful dog. My understanding is that ace immobalizes the body while leaving the mind completely intact. Rather than "relaxing," it seems this condition could be quite alarming and stressful to certain dogs.

 

Correct. The dog will come out of the situation with greater fear than before.

 

A better choice in a non-seizure prone dog would be to ask the vet for a valium for the dog. You need to give it while they are still calm at home. Xanax is another choice I think - we don'tcall it the happy pill for nothing LOL

 

My preference for an othropedic appointment would be to muzzle my dog if needed. and nothing else. They can't examine her correctly if she's drugged.

[juliepoudrier]

Ditto to what's been said above. Stay away from ace--it certainly won't help with fear issues and may make them worse. I have a fear aggressive dog and I just routinely muzzle him when he needs to be examined by the vet. I agree with Wendy that sedating the dog would probably make it more difficult to do a thorough and useful examination anyway and I'm surprised they suggested it.

 

J.

[DebC]

I don't have first hand experience, but judging by Janie's behavior you couldn't get me to use ACE for love or money.

She was given ACE over a period of several days while healing from a broken leg as a pup.

I can point to where it says in her vet records "Janie's owner called today - Janie seems different - please call back ASAP"

Janie at 3 1/2 was an agressive, resource guarding Jekyl and Hyde.

I still think it is because of ACE.

Bear in mind that is my personal opinion, and she received it as a pup - not a grown dog.

[Carson Crazies]

I'm inclined to agree with the others. June was prescribed Ace by my vet for her thunderphobia. What I wound up with was an utterly terrified dog that was just too groggy to do anything about it. It increased her fear - and I'll never do that to a dog again. Plus... it's one of the drugs that can affect a dog with the MDR1 mutation.

[1sheepdoggal]

Ive not ever used it on dogs, but have on horses, and its been my experience, that in using it, it can go one of two ways. It either works, and the amimal is in a subdued state, or the animal experiences a fright, just after being given the ace, that makes it even worse, and not tranqued at all. Reactions then go through the roof. There are much better meds on the market that you could ask the vet to perscribe.

[kate40541]

My experience in using it with a dog that was fearful of fireworks was the same as 1sheepdoggal - the dog was not tranquilized, she went berserk and ran away up a culvert, it was worse than if we'd done nothing at all. There has to be something else you could use for Nellie.

 

I'm thinking of the valium for my Nicky as he's deathly afraid of a vet's office after he almost died in one before he came to us.

 

Suzanne

[Shetlander]

I've used Ace with a few dogs over the past couple of decades. None of them seem to have a bad reaction to it and the thunderphobic ones fell asleep and seemed fine the next morning. I've always given a much smaller amount than the prescription after the first dog could barely walk on the "lower" recommended dose. I wonder if some of the problems people have run into with the drug has anything to do with over medicating.

 

Despite having no problems, I've heard a number of horror stories of dogs who became aggressive or acted strangely. I've heard so many of these stories that I would never give it to a dog who hasn't had Ace before and would now be reluctant to give it to my dogs who seemed ok with it in the past.

[Katelynn & Gang]

At the rescue I sometimes work at, they have a little female which they keep saying is a cattle dog but shes full blooded border collie. They gave her ace when I was there one night and the dog flipped out. I came in to help and not even three of us could hold the poor thing down. I didn't think anything of it at the time, stupid me but they gave it to her when I wasn't in the room or I'd have stopped them. I felt so bad, it was a horrible experience for the poor thing.

 

My dogs wont ever get ace now. Never.

 

Katelynn

[Bill Fosher]

When one of my dogs was neutered, the vet prescribed aceprozamine to "keep him calm" and stop him from licking his incision. Well, the dose she recommended almost stopped him from breathing. I've never been back to that vet since.

 

The only time I've used aceprozamine was in two situations where my old dog was having panic attacks after seizures and diazepam wasn't doing the trick. The last time, a quarter of the dosage recommended for the smaller male dog knocked her out for two days. And I agree with what others have said: it didn't relieve her anxiety at all. It just made it so that she wasn't staggering around in circles, which was important at that point.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I've used ace twice with awful results. I wouldn't ever use it again. The first time, I had a dog that was being observed for seizures and they used ace to keep him from pacing in the kennel. I got a call saying he had gone berserk and was "doing somersaults in the kennel." Like it was my fault. Grrr.

 

When Ben started getting really badly thunderphobic at about eight years old, the vet recommended ace. I forgot what ace does, since I had used it with great success on a dog I had that got sick in the car. Ben became extremely anxious and I do believe it made his fear worse for many years. He also had a terrible reaction to it the next day - I really thought he was going down for the count at one point. I was on the phone with the vet three different times (I learned how to take a dog's pulse that day, not a lesson I particularly wanted to learn on Ben!).

 

I've used Prozac and Elavil with great success for fear aggression, though I wouldn't recommend Elavil long term - it was very helpful to bridge the gap between the brain chemistry problem and where behavior modification could take over, for this particular dog. And I've heard really great things about Xanax. It works in a way to help you associate happy feelings with the vet trip, instead of anxiety and all the junk that happens when humans react to anxiety in a dog.

 

Also, though some may disagree, I've found Bach's remedies of some use too. I use rescue and then ones like Rock Flower (used for terror) and Cherry Plum and Beech help for adjustment. I give some to the dogs, too.

[MaryP]

I've had similar experiences as others with Ace. My dog acted very strange as the Ace started to wear off. He also became VERY cranky (more so than usual) and it took a full day for him to recover.

 

But, I'm curious why you say this, Lenajo?

 

A better choice in a non-seizure prone dog would be to ask the vet for a valium for the dog.

 

Valium is an anti-seizure medication and shouldn't be a problem to give to a seizure-prone dog. Things like Prozac, on the other hand, can lower the seizure threshold for a seizure prone dog and should be used with caution.

[Lenajo]

I've had similar experiences as others with Ace. My dog acted very strange as the Ace started to wear off. He also became VERY cranky (more so than usual) and it took a full day for him to recover.

 

But, I'm curious why you say this, Lenajo?

Valium is an anti-seizure medication and shouldn't be a problem to give to a seizure-prone dog. Things like Prozac, on the other hand, can lower the seizure threshold for a seizure prone dog and should be used with caution.

 

If the dog was prone to seizures I would presume it was already on medication (or diet managed etc) and you don't want to be changing doses/meds for another problem. It would require more than a counter question at the vets office.

 

So my badly garbled point was - for an overly healthy dog with a known fear/aggression problem requesting valium instead of ace for a specific issue would be reasonable.

 

Wendy

[lrayburn]

Thanks for everyone's input. I will talk to my vet about another sedative option. My biggest concern was whether the Ace could knock her out or exacerbate her aggression issues.

 

I'm not looking at this as a training aid to try to reduce her fear at the vet but rather as a tool that will let her get the veterinary care she needs. She can't be vetted even with a muzzle so that isn't a real viable alternative. I would ideally like to find something that allows her to forget the anxiety of the vet visit afterward (kind of like laughing gas does for people) while keeping her from flipping out during the event.

 

Thanks again,

Lisa