Lenajo Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 If you use the elastrator when the lambs are 15 to 30 hours old, there is virtually no check. Sometimes a particularly big lamb will have some discomfort and not want to walk for 5 to 10 minutes, but most don't miss a beat. A decent maternal ewe will keep track of her lambs for that long with no problem. FWIW, I think that tailing with the elastrator causes more discomfort than castrating, but both procedures are pretty well tolerated by young lambs. I beg to differ on the 15-30 hour band castration check. There is for this flock, and after 20 years now I'm pretty solid with what works for us. It's not a maternal issue in that she can't find her lambs, its an issue in that the very young banded lambs don't want to get up and nurse as often. They have a signficant lull in growth compared to the non banded ram lambs and ewes. It lasts 2-4 days, and delays release from the jugs enough that I find the backlog irritating. If the lambs are smaller - triplets or quads - it's even worse. I dock tails with the band method - never had a lamb get tetanus from that wound. The castration band is the problem, probably because that area is more on the ground. Vaccination a month prior to lambing helps, but with enough lambs and the inevitable spread out lambing date you see some breakthrough every so often. With the Nipper the lambs walk away with barely a tucked rump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 I think this just proves that different folks have different experiences with different management methods--obviously Bill and Wendy have had different results with the same method. I think it just proves that like most things, you need to evaluate your own results and do what works best for your flock. I band early and haven't seen any great setback, but I also intend to try other methods in the future and see what happens. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patty Abel Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Thanks Becca.I wonder what the chances are of me getting the hubby to do this for me. I can cowgirl up for most things, but Im not so sure this will be one of them. I think its the word "crush" that has me spooked. Im more use to fixing things, than breaking them. You will need two people for this job. I watched /assisted the vet burdizzo my lambs last year. We put them all in a jug together so we could grab them quickly. The vet tech picked them up under the arms and set them across the hay bale. I held the legs to keep them from kicking the vet. My guys were almost too old for this procedure, but the vet did it anyway, he said everything would be ok. He did make a couple mistakes....He crushed straight across the scrotum on two of them and also applied the burdizzo more than once. Make sure you see a diagram of the way the burdizzo should be placed on the scrotum. It goes at an angle...not straight across. When it is done correctly you will hear/feel a "pop" as the cord is crushed/broken. There were abrasions that did get sore. There was moderate swelling even in the correctly done lambs. Two blew up like water balloons. Flies were a problem. I used lots of iodine on the abrasions. Live and learn. The one month old suffered the least. He is the smallest ram lamb now though. The rest are robust. Julie, was it one of your Tunis' that didn't want to let you band? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Hi Patty, No it was one of the karakul ram lambs. And he's old enough now (nearly three weeks) that I will need to find an alternate method or just leave him intact and put him in with the ram when he's too old to stay with the ewes any longer. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mona Howard Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 It's my experience that the bands cause more discomfort than the burdizzo. I always band my lambs before they leave the jug. I don't like to do it the same day as their birth as I'm afraid it would interfer with the bonding. When I band my ram lambs they lay down and act like a colicky horse for about a half hour. Sometimes I will leave a nice ram lamb entire for a while to see how he developes. If I decide later on that he needs to be made into a wether I use the burdizzo as I believe the band would be too painful for a 4 to 8 wk. old lamb. I have never needed anyone to hold the lamb for me. I just lean prop them on their butts against some hay bales and crimp. I crimp twice each side to ensure I don't miss. The trick is to slide the cord over to the side of the sack and make a small crimp. There's no need to clamp a large area. When I clamp the other side I also move up or down the sack a little ways so the two crimps won't meet across. It's important that there is an undamaged area between the two crimps. A crimp all the way across the sack would cause it to swell and maybe burst as all the blood vessels would have been damaged. My lambs don't make a squeak and walk away and start eating right away. I think it's all in technique. If they screamed or acted like they were in agony I could not do it. I do prefer to band when very young but if they are older the burdizzo is the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patty Abel Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Mona, I wish I could watch YOU do it! I don't think I learnedmuch from my vet...Patty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 I don't think it's fair to compare the effects of applying a band to a three to five day old ram lamb to that of applying it to a 15 to 30 hour old one. If my only options were banding at 3 to 5 days or the budizzo or nipper, I would probably not use the bands either. Technique also matters. You need to make sure that you get both stones fully below the band, and no nipples caught. I've never seen a ram lamb take more than five or 10 minutes to stop "acting like a colicky horse" and I've never had a case of mismothering that I would attribute to castration. And I've probably banded over 4,000 lambs, counting ewe lambs. But, as Julie P. points out, different strokes for different folks. Most of my lambs are never jugged, so just catching them at three to five days of age would be enough of a rodeo that I'd want to avoid it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted March 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Oh Mona?? Just got the pretty, shiney, stainless steel clamping jaws in the mail today. They didnt come with any instuctions. So Im going back over what everyone has posted about the how. Just wondering, how far down the scrotum should we go? Should it be closer to the body? Or further down? Anyone with input is welcome to post, Mona just seemed very ....capable with these things, and we want to do it right to avoid complcations or unnecissary/undue pain to the little fellas. Boy, ya should have seen my husband and son cringe when I opened the box and started clamping and unclamping them! What a kodak moment! Pricless! I think a few of the dogs slunk out of the room too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepandakom Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 I've never used a burdizzo, so I'm not a whole lot of help, but I found some pretty good instructions on the internet (with pictures) http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/4H/meatgoats/...g/castrate7.htm Be careful searching Google for "burdizzo". I came across several websites that had nothing to do with livestock. Emily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted March 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Thanks Emily, Ill check it out. What else did ya come up when googling burdizzo??? Courious, but to chicken to see for myself. ( I might like it! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepandakom Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Thanks Emily, Ill check it out. What else did ya come up when googling burdizzo??? Courious, but to chicken to see for myself. ( I might like it! ) Apparently the burdizzo can be used on people, too. There were several websites dedicated to it. Emily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted March 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Oh sh*t! Thats what I thought! Thank you, thats enough info for me! Sorry you had to go through that! I appreciate your efforts ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feas Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Apparently the burdizzo can be used on people, too. There were several websites dedicated to it. Emily All I have to say about this is good! Wont have to worry about them in the gene pool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailrider Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Am i just lucky or what? I have found a buyer that will take the lambs with tails and scrotum intact. He pays by the head. I`m happy to let them be, since they seem to grow better. However, last spring, Easter took a while, and the lambs bred back. Makes a mess. One year I banded/neutered the 8 first/oldest ram lambs, and they were missing in late spring when we sheared and I wanted to separate them. Disappeared. The 2 legged coyotes took them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mona Howard Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Here's another link in case anyone is interested. http://fiascofarm.com/goats/buck-wether-info.htm#burdizzo Both links together pretty much cover it well. Note in one link they are using the huge cattle buzdizzo. I like the smaller one made for sheep. I'm no better than anyone else using these things. It's just practice. Go slow and think and you'll be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted March 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Thanks Mona. We're gonna give it a go this weekend. Im picking up more tetanus tonight. Id rather not have to catch these lambs more than once in a week, so do you reccomend doing the shot a few days before, or can I just shoot them while I have them for thier, er, well, um, you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Darci, Regarding tetanus shots, if you want immediate protection against tetanus, then you need to use the tetanus antitoxin (which protects for 7-20 days from administration of the shot). If you simply want to vaccinate against tetanus, then you use the tetanus toxoid, which--like many vaccines--requires a booster after the initial vaccine. I don't think you could be "guaranteed" full immunity with the latter (the vaccine) until after the booster shot, which would be given a month after the initial injection. For example, the first year I lambed, I did not know the vaccination status of the ewes and so couldn't be sure that the lambs had recieved any passive immunity from the ewes, so I gave everyone tetanus antitoxin when I banded. Now that I vaccinate everyone annually with Covexin 8 (the ewes get their boosters 4-6 weeks before lambing), I expect the lambs to carry passive immunity for tetanus from their dams and don't use tetanus antitoxin when I band (the exception would be if I'm banding late or a bottle lamb that didn't get its mother's colostrum). So what you use and when depends on the age of the lambs and the vaccination status of their dams. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsnrs Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 What is the latest you can wait to band? Our 2 ram lambs are about 2 to 3 weeks old and not real big (hair sheep). N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDearstine Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 This is a very interesting thread, we have had sheep just over 2 years now but the wife had sheep while she was growning up as 4H projects, our kids have been doing 4H club lambs for about 5 years now, when we were buying club lambs we would pick them up at the farm at around 9 weeks and the seller would band them right then, this seems to be a pretty regular practice among the sellers of club lambs in this area, I recently talked to a couple asking advice because this is the first year we have alot of ramlambs and need to band them, they all told me to wait as long as possible so that they will grow better, seems to be alot of differring opinions out there, Thanks, Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted March 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 What I got from the 2 threads was that its best to do them as early as newborn, but no later than a week old. Mine were about 2 to 3 weeks old when I asked, and on the small side too. (hair sheep) Theres a link to purchase a sheep and goat burdizzo at Premiere 1 on this thread, and some good links for instruction on how to use it. I ordered mine and it only took a few days to get here, and it cost me with shipping just under 50 dollars. Dont know if youd want to band yours at this age, it wasnt reccomended. I have one more ewe to lamb, since I already have the tool, if she throws me any rams, I'll use the burdizzo on it/them? (looks like she's holding on to trips) I like it for the reason that I can use it on older lambs. I liked the idea that they were older and bonded and had a little more size and vigor than a 3 day old lamb does. Mine are doing great, and never missed a beat after doing them last sunday. But in answer to your question, I cant say if you can band them at their age, just that it wasnt reccomended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 What is the latest you can wait to band? Our 2 ram lambs are about 2 to 3 weeks old and not real big (hair sheep). N No matter what the sellers of club lambs do, the general consensus is that for humane and disease reasons the oldest should be 10 days. Club lamb producers do a lot of things that most shepherds and veterinarians wouldn't exactly endorse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 Thanks Bill--I was just getting ready to say that yes, you can do it later, but doing so isn't exactly good husbandry. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 Thanks Bill--I was just getting ready to say that yes, you can do it later, but doing so isn't exactly good husbandry. J. I'll have to tell my vet that. And my shearer. They band up to 6 months of age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 I think good husbandry is relitive to who's talking. I've seen some vets and some farmers do things that I would never consider doing. Hey they're the experts of thier own flocks but I own my sheep so I get to choose what is good husbandry for us. I've done lambs that were a week + a few days old and didn't like it, I felt sorry for the little guys but that's the way it worked out at the time. I probably won't be doing that again if I can help it. I lost a very young lamb (under 24 hours old) to what I think was shock, he was tiny and it was very cold out (I wasn't in AR at the time) but very healthy looking so I chose to band him within 24 hours of birth. I think it sent him into shock, but I chalked it off the the 2 stress rule. 1 stress is ok, 2 is questionable but 3 is asking for death. He was extra tiny, 1st stressor and he was cold, 2nd stresssor. I added the 3rd and sent him over the edge. So I like our 2 stress rule, it works for us. Kristen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 I'll have to tell my vet that. And my shearer. They band up to 6 months of age. Wendy, I think we've had this sort of conversation before--what works for some doesn't necessarily work for others. I *personally* don't think banding at an older age is good husbandry. If you, your shearer, your vet, and whatever higher power you believe in tell you it's okay to do it some other way, then so be it. My opinion (as well as the opinion of others, apparently--I'll ask my vet the next time I see him) is that it's not okay. If it works for you, your vet, and your shearer, great. I'm not changing my mind about it though. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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