pet dog owners / Stock dog owners

[Brandon M]

The Border Collie is a breed that is intelligent and can be trained well to do many, many things. I dont think it matters what the dog is focused on, and I highly doubt that a BC gets more satisfaction from herding than it does from doing any other focused task. They may seem to be a bit up in step, but thats because you just let them chase animals in a controlled and rewarding fashion. My dog loves to chase my girlfriend's cats and always comes back with a big smile on his face. I've seen dogs that looked lonely and deprived that were working dogs, and also very happy working dogs. It's ALL about the dog-owner relationship. That's all that really matters. Also, as for breeding. The breed was bred for livestock for a long time, before there was search and rescue, agility, etc. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't do those things, and love it just as much, or more, than working stock. Anyone that says otherwise is just being traditional. Times change, and different uses are found for old tools. Working dogs are awesome, but I for one admire the agility dog, or SAR dog, or even the hunting BC just as much. It's just the best most versatile breed IMHO.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Also, as for breeding. The breed was bred for livestock for a long time, before there was search and rescue, agility, etc. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't do those things, and love it just as much, or more, than working stock. Anyone that says otherwise is just being traditional.

And what's wrong with being traditional?

 

I need an emoticon for hand on hip, tapping foot impatiently while looking over my horn-rimmed glasses.

 

It's ALL about the dog-owner relationship. That's all that really matters.

Actually, from my point of view, it's ALL about those lambs that I wean and sell at the end of the production cycle. I think this puts a somewhat different dimension on the "chasing". To wit:

 

I highly doubt that a BC gets more satisfaction from herding than it does from doing any other focused task. They may seem to be a bit up in step, but thats because you just let them chase animals in a controlled and rewarding fashion. My dog loves to chase my girlfriend's cats and always comes back with a big smile on his face.

Egads.

 

[Herding snob warning]No, I just can't accept that your dog chasing the cats is the same as Ben or Cord gently guiding a firstime mama ewe and newborn twins up to shelter before nightfall, and the advent of freezing rain (not to mention the coyotes that will pick off any sheep left out with newborn lambs). It's controlled and there's a level where it might be rewarding, but it's a heck of a lot of pressure, it's not fun being charged by the ticked-off mama over and over, and it couldn't be fun feeling my impatience however desperately I try to hide it.

 

I don't know how to describe what's going on there in words that will help people who haven't experienced it, see that it's just different. [/end herding snob warning]

 

I think SAR people and service dog people would understand better. Maybe if you see a situation in the negative.

 

Imagine you are out in the park and you throw the disc and your dog goes out, catches it, and runs off and plays keep away instead of bringing it back. You'll be a little ticked off but it won't make much difference in the grand scheme of things.

 

Now you are walking into a field with about fifty yearling rams, breeding stock. They start to charge the gate, because there's a rule with livestock handling. If you want stock to go through a gate it will be like the unassailable Great Wall of China. If you don't, the stock will charge through at top speed for no reason at all.

 

You have your dog come through with you and ask him to hold them. Instead, he flips around and brings the group even faster, slamming them against the gate, and you are knocked down and even if you could get up it would be impossible to move with 5000 pounds of sheep packed against you (good dog, he's learned to hold them to a fence very well!).

 

Now you've got to get that dog around to your feet, but that's about the hardest thing a farm dog has to learn - come into the tighest part of the packed group and then STOP, taking whatever punishment those sheep will dish out before deciding to move (if they do), plus he'll be moving them away from you not TO you.

 

You learn really quick what teamwork really is when it goes bad on you.

 

I once stood for twenty minutes, alone, in a similiar situation. Not rams, but pregnant ewes, and they had actually jammed my foot in the gate I had just gone through. I had one foot crushed in the gate and held there with the pressure of the flock pressing on that gate (pushed there by my dog), and one foot stepped on over and over by the sheep nearest me.

 

I begged and pleaded and cried and threw things from my lambing supplies bucket at my poor dog, who really hadn't gotten the memo yet about this particular exercise (note to self, teach dogs farm chores first, THEN worry about trial training). I'd get him halfway around then he'd panic and flip back around again, pressing the sheep even harder and crushing my foot even more. I tried to bully him back off the pressure but (as I know now), the harder I pushed on HIM, the harder he came back on the SHEEP.

 

I don't even remember how I got out of that pickle but I don't think it was clever, stockmanlike, or pretty. I do remember that that dog never, ever, ever came in confidently on a shed again.

 

I wish we could agree that there are some of us who have experienced both sides of this to some degree and we have no interest in belittling what anyone chooses to do with their dog. Yes, we do stand firm that working livestock is what the Border Collies "are all about" - but we only want people who have them strictly as companions to understand what makes the dogs what they are. We're not setting ourselves up as US, up HERE in the Olympus of Shepherding, with all the rest of you down there in the world of Everything Else. I do divide Border Collies that way for breeding purposes but nothing else. Heck, for breeding purposes I and my dogs are down here with you all in the World of Everything Else, since my farm is not anywhere near what I'd consider to be a good test of breeding quality, and my trial handling skills are so abysmal that I never forsee a time when I'd come anywhere close to proving my dogs on the trial field.

 

I know there ARE people who for whatever reason think they get brownie points for working their dogs versus playing flyball with them. I wish I knew who was distributing those brownie points - heaven knows I need some lately! I don't think it works that way and I do wish the discussion wouldn't keep coming back to this non-issue.

[Brandon M]

No, I just can't accept that your dog chasing the cats is the same as Ben or Cord gently guiding a firstime mama ewe and newborn twins up to shelter before nightfall, and the advent of freezing rain (not to mention the coyotes that will pick off any sheep left out with newborn lambs).

I was just trying to make point that it's just a natural response, by most breeds, to feel a sense of accomplishment after chasing, herding, etc.., an animal that would natuarally be a prey species. Wolves herd animals to single out the weak and reap the rewards for doing such. What you are talking about with Ben and Cord is what I meant by "controlled".

 

Your post was interesting to read Rebecca. Were you injured bad when you were pinned by the gate? Im not experienced with working dogs so much, but I've been working around live stock all my life. Sheep, Cattle, Horses, and Llama. And Turkeys lol, but never again. I hate em. And I've known a lot of people with working dogs and I know how they can act if not supervised.

 

I didn't mean to put down the working dog, if it sounded like that. I respect the working dog and it's handler. And maybe, even, there isn't anything more noble for a dog to do than guide a firstime mama ewe and newborn twins up to shelter, or scare off coyote. But I dont think an individual dog can benefit mentally or otherwise from that honor. And would benefit just as much for being praised by his or her handler for doing whatever it was trained to do. Point is Border Collies can do pretty much everything, and they can do it all well. Smart dogs, wanting nothing more than to please their master. Be it chasing frisbee or herding ducks, sheep, cattle, or cats

[stockdogranch]

BorderC: "...you just let them chase animals..."

 

Based on this statement, I am sure that you have never seen a good working dog work stock, because if you had, you would know that "chasing" is NOT what is happening.

 

For one thing, when your dog is chasing the cat, the dog is running directly behind the kitty trying to catch it, right? Well, that's NOT what working dog instinct is all about. It's the innate understanding on the dog's part to NOT let the stock get away, so the dog instinctively knows to GO TO THE HEAD--that is, to go out and around the stock to stop its forward movement so that it CANNOT get away.

 

I've instinct tested literally hundreds of dogs (of ALL the "herding breeds") over the past 10 years, and, yes, 99% of them enjoyed "chasing" the sheep around my small pen. Most all dogs, heck, my ex's mother's yorkie even, will chase anything that moves. BUT, for most of those dogs that were NOT BRED for their working ability, when I try to guide their chasing so that it becomes "work," that is, focused and directed, so that it's not just "fun," they run to the gate, waiting for mom or dad to get them out of there. If it's not a game, they're not interested.

 

I really have no problem with agility or flyball (although I have to say I don't quite understand the way flyballers (at least those here in CA that I've seen) get their dogs so frenzied before they run), but those are what I would call GAMES. Working stock is just that--WORK. Getting kicked in the head by an 800 pound cow cannot be enjoyable, but a good cow dog just takes it in stride, because that's part of the job, and that's the job they were bred to do.

 

Rebecca: where did you find that head-banging emoticon? I need a dozen of those right now!

 

Anna

One of the "herding" nazis

[Brandon M]

Maybe I should have said that my dog was "herding" my cat. It's not too hard to figure out my point there. A lot of people say that having a BC herd livestock is more rewarding to the dog than the other activities BCs currently do. That's what Im arguing against. I was just saying that if it seems that way it's because they are doing something that all dogs would LOVE to do. They can just be more easily controlled through training. Because they're smart. And of course they have the ability to be very successfull with stock too because they are light, agile, and quick thinking. But those same attributes are perfect for a number of other jobs as well.

 

For one thing, when your dog is chasing the cat, the dog is running directly behind the kitty trying to catch it, right?

Again, no. My dog runs around the cat trying to control where it goes. Doesn't try to "Catch" the cat. And he is usually in front of the cat. But I just used the cat because it is something that everyone who owns a BC can relate to, and has most likely witnessed this behavior. I thought it would be a good example of a BCs prey drive and the resulting enthusiasm after having controlled the kitty.

 

Hope this will do ya:

 

EDIT "but thats because you just let them stalk/herd/chase/follow prey species in a controlled and rewarding fashion."

 

I have seen hundreds of great working dogs. And I'm just talking based on my oppinion, Anna. No offense.

 

P.S. "Getting kicked in the head by an 800 pound cow cannot be enjoyable, but a good cow dog just takes it in stride, because that's part of the job, and that's the job they were bred to do."

 

What kinda cattle are you raising? or do you just train stockdogs for other people? BTW, I love the San Diego area. I do the Del Mar Fair every year. NorCal ftw though.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Were you injured bad when you were pinned by the gate?

I had torn cartilege in my knee and had to get shots and wore a brace for ages (ironically, I had just gotten a rocker boot OFF that leg, from an ankle I broke in a car wreck). I still have difficulty with that knee on and off but am thankful I didn't have to have surgery at the time. It was a near miss. I have problems with the other foot quite often - my plantar fascia was squished and I ended up getting shots and an orthotic for it, also.

 

I don't see why you argue "against" the notion that Border Collies might get more out of the use of every fiber of their athleticism, their mental capacity, their instincts - than they would chasing a ball or a cat. Why should you mind if that were true? Your dog doesn't care if that additional bit is "out there" - even the ones that taste the steak don't mourn for it when they don't get it.

 

Yes, chasing the cat was the correct term the first time. Cats are not livestock and don't "herd." Particularly a single cat. Now, if your dog were rounding up a whole flock of cats and putting them in a trailer we'll talk turkey. Ooops. You don't like turkeys. It's getting late and I'm getting silly.

 

Is there a difference between reading a book to a young niece and talking to her about school, and playing a sport like tennis or rock climbing with a good friend while simultaneously discussing a controversial book you are both reading? Of course there is. Is one activity in some way superior to the other? Of course not.

 

Both are fulfiling, but in different ways. The latter uses more of your physical and mental abilities and I guarantee you'll feel more refreshed mentally and exhilarated physically (if a bit tired) afterwards. Nobody is going to tell you that reading books to kids is a waste of time, however.

 

I imagine Anna meant "calf". It IS rather late. I wouldn't want to get kicked by an 800 pound calf, either.

[Brandon M]

Like you said, it's getting late. And I appreciate your response to what I said Rebecca. You have a way of making things clear with your writing. I never thought of a BC working stock as getting "more out of the use of every fiber of their athleticism, their mental capacity, their instincts - than they would chasing a ball or a cat." But maybe that's what it is.

 

I for one have no choice with my dog but to give him whatever I can as an outlet for his energy and have been training him everyday. And I couldn't see him being happier. But I can see the satisfaction he might gain from a true day of hard work, like I enjoy myself, and there isn't a better feeling IMO. I used to work for a cattle/sheep ranch, but the owner's wife got breast cancer and they ended up selling the ranch. Up until then I was wanting a BC to train to work the stock, per my bosses advice and wishes. Now I work at a different ranch, with Llama and there are no dogs allowed. But I'm going to get into SAR and Agility with my BC, Lance. Best I can do. And I'm still working with lance on rounding up the stray flocks of cats around here, and putting them in the back of my Jeep.

So lets at least talk Turkey

 

P.S. I'm still not saying it's anything less than being a working stock dog. It'll keep him occupied and happy, and I'll give him a good work out everyday, like day one

 

Also, Rebecca, sorry about the knee. glad it healed up pretty good. I tore my acl falling off a hay stack 4 years ago and it still bothers me a lot. I've never really gotten into a thread on these boards as much I have on this one. I'm not used to talking to people online. I usually just post little tid bits here and there. But Even though most may not agree with what I said here I actually enjoyed the internet for once. LoL.

[kelpiegirl]

A few years back I was told about the mother of a friend of mine being injured by a Suffolk ram. It nailed this woman, breaking several verterbrae in her neck, and leaving her with a permanently disabled shoulder. They had BC's, but the BC's were never trained to work the sheep. It was then and there that I knew how useful a dog would be- to watch my back as it were. That is their only job afterall- to handle the stock for us. This past May I had a ram break my knee- not sure why he decided to take me on; it wasn't an experienced dog in there- maybe that is why. It just underscores the need, in my opinion for a good dog to handle his/her end while you go about the business of handling stock.

Julie

[Sue R]

Brandon - I am grateful that Rebecca has managed to reply to your post(s) rationally and well because I sure can't. Your attitude expressed in your 10:17 pm post is precisely the ignorant (and I'm sorry to be judgemental and offensive but I can't figure out any nicer way to say it) attitude that would destroy the breed because folks that think that way just don't get what it is that makes real Border Collies what they are...

 

It sounds to me like you enjoy having a dog that is descended from generations of purposeful breeding but don't care about the breed itself, its future, or its perpetuation as a breed with a purpose. Or, if you think you do, it's so you can have a fun dog to share your life with. That's not the attitude that made this breed what it is over generations of purposeful breeding but that's the kind of general public attitude that destroys what's wonderful about any worthwhile breed of dog.

 

It may be the dog/handler relationship that is important for each individual dog and handler, but it's a much bigger picture that is important for the future of a breed. Ignorance, disregard of worthwhile tradition, the show ring, selfishness, "versatility", "makes a great pet", "most popular breed", etc., have been the downfall of many purpose-bred breeds. The result is a plethora of lowest-common-denominator breeds that only retain rudiments at best of their former uniqueness and usefulness as a partner in work or sport.

 

I hope and pray that's not the future for the Border Collie as a breed. A cavalier attitude towards the breed is making that a distinct possibility, as dogs are bred for conformation, sport, pets, and money rather than to produce quality working dogs that can work stock and have the intensity and focus to want to do that job.

 

We may see the day when there are two breeds - the Border Collie (bred to work stock, in all its uniqueness and ability) and dogs descended from Border Collies (that only retain bits and pieces of instinct and drive that ignorant people will point to and exclaim as "herding" ability). Actually, I fear that day is already here...

 

Eileen - If you find this post offensive and inappropriate, please delete it. I'll admit I'm venting.

[Keegan's Mom]

I will admit that I have only been skimming but have read fully these last couple posts. I find this discussion to be futile and I feel that Becca has done an excellent job of communicating a very good point.

 

However, I would like to add a comment about this...

Originally posted by BorderC:

I was just trying to make point that it's just a natural response, by most breeds, to feel a sense of accomplishment after chasing, herding, etc.., an animal that would natuarally be a prey species.

I don't know that to say they feel a sense of "accomplishment after chasing, herding, etc..." is a very well thought out statement. Keegan loves to "chase" a frisbee. At the end of a play session he is satisfied, I wouldn't say he has accomplished anything. Is he tired, yes...is he happy, yes...does he feel he accomplished something, if I had to guess I would say no. When he chases our cats, which we don't encourage, does he have a sense of accomplishment? Maybe because he made the cat go away...however, is he "proud" of himself? Probably not so much.

 

When we are herding and he does something that I think is fantastic, Keegan has the best look on his face. If I were to guess, he feels like he is on top of the world. Have I ever seen him look like this when chasing frisbee? The cats? No. I only see this look on his face, in his eyes, and his attitude change when we are herding sheep or helping friends do something useful with their sheep.

 

I just can't explain it like Becca would, but it is the best feeling in the world to me...and I wasn't even "bred" to do this type of thing...imagine how this dogs feels that gets a chance to do what he was meant to do. To me, he has to be on top of the world. Nothing else could make him feel this way...I guarantee it!!!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

The grins say it all:

 

[Maralynn]

Originally posted by Keegan's Mom-

 

"When we are herding and he does something that I think is fantastic, Keegan has the best look on his face. If I were to guess, he feels like he is on top of the world. Have I ever seen him look like this when chasing frisbee? The cats? No. I only see this look on his face, in his eyes, and his attitude change when we are herding sheep or helping friends do something useful with their sheep."

 

That look! This morning went I went to do chores, Missy gave me that "pleease" look. I told her "go bring". She hopped the fence into the barnyard, trotted into the barn and brought the sheep out to the gate. I told her "that'll do", she hopped back out, and the whole look on her face and her body language read "-contented sigh- that was GOOD".

[Tammy525]

A picture says a thousand words doesn't it. Rebecca, I read your posts with complete awe. I have only seen BC's in action once, and it was very clear, that there is no other dog like a working BC in the world. And there never should be. I am not opposed to letting a BC live without herding, but I am VERY opposed to breeding a BC for anything but stockwork.

 

My minimal support for your working dogs is to tell everyone my perfect family pet, perfectly obedient, very smart dog is a lab mix. I am sorry for him that I deny his 1/2 BC heritage in public, but I feel like this protects your working dogs.

 

Keep up the good work Rebecca, and all of you banging your heads against the wall. Probably a lot more pet people are getting an education from this than you think.

[Ruger's Dad]

BorderC: I think you understand where I was coming from.

[kelpiegirl]

Tammy

You don't have to feel compelled to tell the world that your dog is a half lab, and keep out the BC part to "protect the BC". Fact is, when any dog is made up of more than one breed, it is a crap shoot what the dog's resultant behaviour/attitude will be. I don't think anyone here really expects you to go to those lengths. Be proud of your dog and it's heritage-all of it!!

Julie

[Brandon M]

Ruger's Dad: Yes I do.

 

But it's not worth arguing over because some ppl just dont get the point. They are too focused on defending the BC as purely a stock dog.

 

Lance - I am grateful that Rebecca has managed to reply to your post(s) rationally and well because I sure can't. Your attitude expressed in your 10:17 pm post is precisely the ignorant (and I'm sorry to be judgemental and offensive but I can't figure out any nicer way to say it) attitude that would destroy the breed because folks that think that way just don't get what it is that makes real Border Collies what they are...

Lance is the name of my dog. And if I said something that you think would destroy the breed then I dont understand. Whats wrong with thinking a BC can do more than work stock? and do whatever job it has happily. I dont see why you think I'm doing the breed an injustice by promoting other uses for the breed.

[juliepoudrier]

Originally posted by BorderC:

I was just saying that if it seems that way it's because they are doing something that all dogs would LOVE to do. They can just be more easily controlled through training. Because they're smart. And of course they have the ability to be very successfull with stock too because they are light, agile, and quick thinking. But those same attributes are perfect for a number of other jobs as well.

BorderC,

I wasn't going to post to this thread anymore but felt I had to reply to this. Surely you don't think *all dogs* would love to herd. I think it would be more accurate to say many dogs would love to *chase,* some dogs from the majority of herding breeds would love to work stock, and many well bred working border collies would love to work stock. I no more think that my sister's great dane would *love* to herd than my cat would.

 

I do agree that the attributes you list are the reason so many people want border collies for so many other activities. I just wish people would understand/acknowledge that all those attributes are there because of years and years of breeding for a purpose, and if we stop breeding for that purpose, eventually border collies will be no different than any other dog out there. And that's the point working dog folk have been making over and over. I don't think it's a point you can really argue against, though some people seem determined to do so.

 

J.

[Brandon M]

Julie, you're right, I dont mean "all dogs" just talking about the majority. Herding IS a natural drive with dogs. They've been herding ever since dogs walked the earth. Working together to single out an individual is herding. Just because some dog are good at it (with training) doesn't mean that others arent interested.

 

Has anyone seen a sheepdog that learned how to "work" stock for its handler all on it's own?

[kelpiegirl]

Regarding learning working the stock- a very important aspect is the dog's willingness to take correction, and listen to it's handler- that is where you separate the wheat from the chaff. There are many talented dogs out there but some of those dogs will never reach their potential because they can't take a correction, and/or aren't willing to be part of a team.

Julie

[bailey44]

I'm the second generation from farming in my family. I got the tail end of this, listening to my grandmother complain about drinking "city water" and sending pleas out to relatives who still had farms to bring her decent well water after she grew too old to live on her beloved farm.

 

I wasn't born on a farm, but it is in my blood. I am middle-aged and still wake up sometimes and wonder where the heck my farm is--it just feels to me that a farm is where I belong...I am as protective over that lifestyle as I am over the conviction that the border collie should should be carefully watched so that the qualities that make them so precious are protected.

 

At any rate, it came as no surprise to me that I was drawn to this breed. I find it hard to believe that my suburban dog doesn't sometimes feel a stirring of what it feels like to have a farm life. After all, we both have a farm- girl pedigree. I might be anthropomorphizing her, yes, but if it feels so strong to me, why not her?

 

I wanted a mid-sized, active, alert dog. I have Polly. We live in suburbia and have wonderful fun together. She is, bar none, the most amazing animal I have ever seen. She is happy, and certainly, I've never been around a more well-adjusted dog. I would never "katz" (we should start using that as a verb meaning: to use dogs to fulfill ones own ego-driven needs) my dog and enter into something we are not prepared for.

 

I think we all have fun and challenging things to do with our dogs, but I can't help but have a special reverence for those of you who rely on your dogs to help with your farms. That is what the border collie was meant to do.

 

Polly and I sometimes stand quietly at the back door and stare at our pitiful half-acre and the hills beyond...My husband says his girls are listening to "the call of the farm"....

[borderlicious]

Originally posted by BorderC:

Herding IS a natural drive with dogs. They've been herding ever since dogs walked the earth.

:confused:

 

No, it isn't. Dogs that actually herd, rather than chase, are the product of many years of breeding. If it was so natural in dogs, why wouldn't Labrador Retrievers be used as often as Border Collies on ranches? Why wouldn't Greyhounds, or Pit Bulls? Or hell, why not wolves or coyotes, if it's so natural?

 

With AKC's obedience-on-sheep type trials, yes, any dog can be a 'herding' dog. But that isn't natural, most of those dogs are highly conditioned to move the stock the way they do.

 

True stock work isn't just the act of running around sheep. It isn't just the act of going in front of the sheep to stop them. It isn't just a crouch and intense gaze. It isn't just following commands. It's a delicate combination of those and many other behaviors, a balance of quick thinking and biddability, and the result of many years of breeding. In no way is it something that comes naturally to all dogs. It doesn't even come naturally to all Border Collies . . .

 

I'm not sure if you've read this, but even if you have, I think it'd be well worth reading again.

[Sue R]

Brandon - Sorry about the name snafu. Chalk it up to early hours and old age or whatever. It wasn't intentional.

 

But it's not worth arguing over because some ppl just dont get the point.

Absolutely.

 

They are too focused on defending the BC as purely a stock dog.

Again, some folks are just missing the point. Not one person here has said that the Border Collie must be used purely as a stock dog, has denied its ability to succeed in many pursuits, or has said it can't be a loved, happy, and successful pet and family dog in the right hands. They've just pointed out that, for the dog that possesses the instincts and drive that the breed was developed for, there is nothing like stockwork.

 

Julie said it better than I ever could (and so did Rebecca and several others). I'm done wasting my time arguing over this particular aspect of this thread.

 

Those who understand the breed, will continue to understand it without any further input in this thread from me. Those who want to understand it, will learn from the many others who have added (and may yet add) thoughtful and understanding posts. Those who don't want to understand what we are talking about, won't get it anyway.

[kelpiegirl]

I have been trying to help get the essence of what y'all are talking about. I think I have it in a book titled "Dusty" by Frank Dalby Davison, about a kelpie from dubious background handling life both at night and day- I don't want to give the story away. Anyway, here is an excerpt about a dog named Dinah at a dog trial:

 

"The appearance of the dog on the top edge of the depression was always unexpected. It brought a start of surprise from the first sheep to catch sight of the dog, and a bleating which made the others look up. Dinah paused at the top of the slope, crouched a little, tail wagging slowly from side to side, waiting until she collected the attention of the entire mob- then she would draw them together not by running around them but by just advancing a paw, indicating that something was about to being, establishing her ascendancy over them before making her will known. The lift was important. There should be no untidy running about. As little disturbance as possible. Presently the sheep should be moving down the course, trotting along in front of the dog as gently as if it were all a matter of mutual agreement. Something was established between the dog and sheep in the few moments of the lift that stood by the dog all through the rest of the course. It was somthing with a touch of magic in it, something of which men could avail themselves through the dog, but which only a dog understood."

 

I could go on and on- there is a wonderfully written book, but that is a good example, I believe of what is being said.

J

[Tammy525]

I deny Scout's BC heritage because everyone who meets him wants a dog just like him. I do NOT want to give the impression that Scout is representative of the breed, because he is hopelessly NOT. (as an example, we let him out to chase off the 5000 or so small blackbirds that descended on the property this am, and he had a GREAT time "herding" them for about 10 minutes, than wandered off to something else.) We laugh about how Scout is all BC one minute then his lab part takes over and he gets distracted.

 

Anyway, I know there would be a significant number of people who meet Scout, find out he's BC, and go out and get themselves a BC and have no idea what to do with such an intelligent dog. So, that's why I don't tell.

 

I have never heard anyone say here that border collies should only be used for stock. What I hear is that border collies should only be BRED for stock. Have I missed the point?

[kelpiegirl]

Tammy- you could do what I did with my mixed breed and call him a breed that no one ever heard of (read- you made up). He is very handsome, so what about a mcfd? Medium coated family dog? Or, for a smoother sounding name, what about a DEEOHGEE- read DOG

 

Oh, and to your question- you got it- we seem to be talking in circles!

 

Julie