pet dog owners / Stock dog owners

[Eileen Stein]

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It's hard for me to believe that ANYONE, ANYWHERE has ever thought less of you for rescuing a border collie and giving him a loving, caring home. Is what you wrote really a fair statement?

[smileyzookie]

I have to agree with WyoBC that in some cases there is the feeling that the pet owners are less thought of than the working dog owners. I wont point out specifically, but there have been things said that make it seem you (some of you working dog owners) think us pet owners arent as important. I dont want to fight about it, but I dont think you guys should trigger WyoBC for his feelings about it either. Truth is I know we arent the only ones who have felt that way. Im not saying it is how all you guys who work dogs feel, but sometimes it is how you come off to some. And, not all you working dog people come off that way, dont get me wrong.

 

Ok I've bumbled through this post enough lol

[MrSnappy]

Only you can control the way you feel. Working stockdog people can't "make" you feel any way that you don't let them. I think the real issue is your own insecurity about being "merely" a pet owner of BX (mix). The difference is that many of the stockdog type folks here have no insecurities about what they believe when it comes to the importance of the working dog.

 

I believe that working dog people sometimes value dogs as a value-add more than as dogs. I am sometimes disheartened by the buying / selling that goes on. But that's because I am a rescuer. My outlook and philosophy are different. No one makes me feel bad about finding new pet (or sport) homes for pet (or sport) border collies because I believe in what I do. If you believe yourself to be a good pet owner, then no one can make you feel otherwise. You can only choose to interpret what someone says as a slur against you, and you choose to do that because of your own insecurities. By "you" I of course refer to this collective of pet owners who are supposedly made to feel badly about being pet owners, not you specifically.

 

I choose to not feel disrespected by any stockdog type people because I believe in what I do. I do not disrespect any stockdog people because I think their strong beliefs are admirable, even when I disagree with some things. I love pet owners who love a dog from start to finish and play ball with him every day or what have you, because that's where most of my dogs go and it also describes my own dogs. Sadly, for me, I'm never going to be the person with acreage and sheep for my dogs. le sigh.

 

There is room for everyone. There is no room for egos. So many useful discussions here turn into "us-against-them." It doesn't have to. Stockdog people know more about working dogs than most pet owners. Pet owners know more about living with a border collie in an urban, pet-oriented environment than most stockdog people. Everyone brings something to the table, none of us better than the rest of us.

 

Except for Red Dog, of course. He is better than any of your dogs!

 

RDM

[Jack & Co.]

Mr. Snappy wrote

Stockdog people know more about working dogs than most pet owners. Pet owners know more about living with a border collie in an urban, pet-oriented environment than most stockdog people. Everyone brings something to the table, none of us better than the rest of us.

Perfectly said, RDM.

[Dixie_Girl]

All the working dog people I interact with, kennel their dogs. They always get a "look" on their face when they find out Jackson not only stays in the house, but sleeps with me. 99% of them work their dogs on their ranch. They are tools for them. If they get a pup or young dog and it doesn't work, they have no qualms with finding it a different home. Or if they just don't like the WAY the dog works. They trade dogs alot. But they have NEVER made me feel inferior to them. They have been so good about giving me pointers and advice. When Jackson blew, with my help, his first trial, comments were made but they were made good natured, I took it as such. Sometimes, you just gotta let things roll. If you start taking offense at every little thing you will end up like my cousin Merv. He could never go to a football game. Every time the players would get in a huddle he was convinced they were talking about him!

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Jack & Co.:

Perfectly said, RDM.

Well, except for that part about Red Dog!!!!

[juliepoudrier]

DixieGirl,

For every working dog person who kennels their dog(s) or passes them on when they don't work out for whatever reason, there is probably an equal number whose dogs are pets when they aren't workikng. I fall into the latter category, as do many others I know. Conversely, I know of pet owners whose dogs don't spend a lot of time in the house, who don't sleep on the bed, etc. I guess that may be part of the reason I don't understand the us vs. them mentality that comes to a lot of these discussions. For me, and a lot of others, our dogs are working dogs *and* pets. And there's nothing wrong with that either.

 

It's unfortunate, but I think it's in the nature of some people to see insult and condescension where none is intended. In that I agree with RDM--an individual can be made to feel inferior only if they have some sort of insecurity that they are allowing to rule their emotions.

 

J.

[Dixie_Girl]

Point taken. Naturally there is different thoughts all the way around as you stated. I only wanted to show that while most of the people I know don't do their dogs like me, they have never made me feel like I was doing wrong with my dog. I agree WITH you.

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by Shetlander:

Well, except for that part about Red Dog!!!!

Hey! Are you trying to make me feel bad about my gimpy, no sense of pressure, old greying hound??? hee hee.

 

RDM

[Cheri McDonald]

Catu: Thank you for starting this thread and I for one complete agree with you.

 

Working People: Thank you for all your wonderful NON-JUDGEMENTAL advise. Your insights and experience given here have been invaluable to me. Your dedication to the true working dog is why I respect you all so much.

 

Rescue People: Thank you for all your hard work and all you do to try to save those that are like my own, loving, too smart for words family members just looking for a home.

 

Sportdog People: BC's are the best, have fun and enjoy your dogs!!

 

Bottomline, I know I have learned soo much from everyone here. I wouldn't trade that sharing of knowledge for anything in the world.

[Zoe]

Originally posted by Julie:

I don't understand where this whole attitude comes from. I've been on this forum for more than 6 years and have not seen working dog folk as a group looking down on everyone else (and in fact, as a group the working dog folks seem to be very willing to help everyone else by answering questions, offering advice, etc.--not exactly a "holier than thou" sort of behavior), and yet, in discussion after discusion, over a variety of topics, this attitude from non-stock people seems to appear. Why is that?

Julie, I don't know. I have never felt it. And I am continually grateful to the working folks on the Boards for remaining. You guys and girls are the reason why I stay.

[Tammy525]

I feel inferior to the working dog folks, but that is because I admire their lives so much. It has nothing to do with their treatment of me! I appreciate so much the way they put up with pet people like me!!

 

That being said, feeling this inferiority in this area is AOK, because everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. I am not cut out to be a working dog person, my dog is 1/2 BC but lazy as they come and not cut out to be a working dog so we are a great match!!

 

Really, I am just seconding what Cheri said. Working people need us to love and care for the dogs not cut out for work, and we pet people desparately need them for their vast knowledge of dog behavior as it was meant to be.

 

While in the working dog area, those folks are far superior to me, I am ok with that. It is not my strength. My gifts are in other areas. The important thing is for everyone to accept their place in life, improving what they can, and dealing appropriately with what can't be changed.

[Anda]

I don't feel inferior to anyone.

 

Each one of us chose their lifestyle. I would never see myself living on a farm or living off a farm. That's just me. City girl, always raised among concrete buildings, always lived in apartments, not houses (my parents own their apartment in a 5 story building in Bucharest and that's where I grew up and lived till I was 23 and moved to US). (I had PLENTY of animals in that apartment).

 

I LOVE working in an office (I'm a Project Manager and have 35+ employees under my supervision). I love animals. I, however, could not imagine living on a farm and cleaning up manure every day (I do clean up after my dog ). Not that I don't love all animals, but that's just me.

 

My lifestyle choice should not make me inelligible from owning a Border Collie. It's a wonderful breed, I love their intelligence, their looks, everything about them.

 

However, I learn every day about diferent aspects of the life of this breed, of how they act, react and perform on the tasks they were meant to do. I try to apply what applies to my day to day living with my dog. I respect and admire all you working dogs owners

 

But, nope, I don't feel inferior to anyone.

[Tammy525]

I think feel was not the right word. I AM inferior in this area, just as I am inferior to an engineer in their area. This is a fact rather than a feeling. There are plenty of areas of superiority as well, also, just a fact. What that means is that overall I am inferior to no one, nor am I superior to anyone, that I have a lot to give, as well as a lot to receive and learn.

 

Inferior is not a bad word. It is just a statement of weakness in a certain area. Something I could change if I wanted to? Sure, but I am happy with my role as pet owner only(of rescued dogs), I have other areas in life to pour my efforts into.

[WyoBC]

No, I don't want anyone to think that I'm mad or anything. That's why I stay on this board is because I love talking to you guys, and I learn SO much from both sides. (pet, and working) The working people I talked about was a few people I have met that treat me that way. Not to say I don't sometimes feel that way though. I'm not saying that everyone treats "pet" owners like that by any means! I guess it was more of a vent because of other people, and I guess I felt somewhat guilty for not working him with stock.

 

Firchow, yes I do remember talking to you about the WSDA, and I probably will do something with it. I was even thinking of going to the Jack Knox clinic in Douglas if I can round up the money for it.

 

Thanks again to everyone on here for all your help, and I hope none of you are mad at me for the vent. I didn't mean it towards you guys. I'm sorry if it came out like that, I didn't mean it.

 

 

ETA: sorry I miss spelled Jack's name :eek:

[Genie]

Originally posted by Catu:

When I had the opportunity to be in real searches, and one of them lasted two weeks in the mountains, you always have another person supporting you, but in the reality, you are alone, you and your dog, so focused in every twist of the tail, the ears, the body language that you are almost smelling with it and the term "become one" is not just a saying. And I think that the same happens to the sheppherd in the pasture, the terapy dog in the hospital and the handler in every obedience or agility contest.

Well said. You're right. That same sense of being a team and relying on each other is felt by therapy dog handlers and their dogs. You rely on your dog to read the situation and make decisions on how to interact with the patient. You can give general commands, but its up to the dog to carry them out in his own unique way. You learn to trust your dog as much as he trusts you. It creates an incredibly strong bond. I believe its the act of working together closely toward the same goal and not the type of work that's important.

[Bill Fosher]

I don't mean to belittle search and rescue or whatever, but when I am in the lambing paddock with my dog to tend to the needs of the newborns and their mothers, my dog is doing what he was bred to do, and what his ancestors were bred to do for hundreds of years before him. He was not bred to walk over teeter totters and make sure he touches the yellow part at each end.

 

You might get a sense of being a team when your dog does a good job for you at some other kind of work or game, but it is not the same as having the dog do a good job at what he was born to do, and having his talent mean that you can do your job better than you could otherwise -- or in some cases, not at all.

 

Other activities use some of the talents that have been bred into Border collies to make livestock work possible, and to make a shepherd's life better. But you are using these talents as a byproduct, not as an integrated whole. You are smelling the steak on the grill. I am eating the steak. Both are pleasant (if you like that sort of thing) but they are not the same.

[kelpiegirl]

Now Bill, that steak analogy made me hungry!!!!

I don't have a farm, but have been working my dog, and I will say this, it really is a different situation from sports. I can't comment on SAR, because I have never done this.

My dogs love to work for me- that can be just about anything I have taught them- that is a big part, I think about BC's (and at least one other working dog , that they have a real need to work for you.

That is 50% of any working dog's worth in my opinion. A sheep dog that blows you off in a tenuous situation, is about as useful as a sheep dog that blows you off in sports. The thing about sheepdogs, the good ones, is that it isn't, I believe, a consious decision. That is, when they know what their job is, they do it, if that means swimming to get to the sheep, or facing off a nasty ewe with a lamb, they really just do it.

In sports, there isn't the same sort of innate thing- it has to be taught and fostered.

I am not belittling agility, as I really enjoy it, and all the things that go with it, but it really is a different ball game.

Julie

[KrisK]

Bill, I like your analogy. Someday, I hope to at least 'nibble' at the steak I'll never make my living raising sheep, and that's okay but I do hope to have just enough sheep so my dogs do get at least an opportunity to do what they were born to do.

[Catu]

I understand your point Bill, and I agree with it. I've never work on stock but I can admit that feels better to work with a dog that is natural in what it does, wathever it is, than try to develop a drive in a mediocre dog (in the said task)wich can at the end carry out with the job but never will be the same as work with a dog in wich the work is natural.

 

My point is that there is a difference between the relationship of the average pet owner, the one that feed the dog twice a day and pats his head from time to time because every house has to have a dog and they are good with childrens, and the relationship of a owner who works with the dog, inverts effort and time and can harvest the satisfaction.

[borderlicious]

I don't feel inferior to anyone. I'm a pet owner. I take cutesy-poopsie pictures and squee over silly things like goofy barks and retrieving. I pamper them shamelessly and honestly don't enjoy life without them. They are happy and well cared for, as well as being important members of the family.

 

I plan to pursue stock work with my girl (and perhaps someday I can put her to use on a ranch) but I will always be a pet owner and she will always be my pet, even if she is a useful work dog and successful in Open.

 

I for one love hearing from people who work their dogs on a daily basis, and I'm glad that they stick around and share their experience with those of us who don't know as much.

[muggs]

These boards have definitely educated me and I'm sure countless others of the importance of the breeding principles. NOW I know who I can talk to if I ever want a trained dog or a puppy. I also got our other dog out of a rescue org. after reading here. So my point is I think what Eileen and others are trying to achieve is being achieved, and I hope the trialers and farmers/ranchers, and the rescuers, know that and stick around.

 

The one time I felt a dog was much smarter- instructor put me in a round pen with an open trial dog. I felt like a bicycle in there with a Ferrari!

[PSmitty]

After a post like Bill's, I can see feeling inferior. Well, not exactly me feeling inferior, but rather feeling that what we pet owners get to experience with our dogs is inferior to the experiences of working dogs and their owners. Maybe inferior isn't exactly the right word, but hopefully you know the point I'm trying to make.

 

As much as I love flyball and agility, it can't compare to a dog doing what all it's instincts and centuries of breeding tell it to do.

 

But, since we don't all have working farms or working dogs, we do what works for us and our dogs. Doesn't make us or our dogs inferior, or that we love them any less, but the experiences are just different.

 

And, BTW, I've never felt belittled or that any of the working folks wanted me to feel inferior. Personally, I've learned a lot from them, but I realize we're living in different worlds.

[Kyrasmom]

I think we can all agree that a working border collie doing what it was bred to do is indeed something to admire, (and something to protect) but for me, it's not necessarily something to aspire to or to look at as superior if it's not a part of your way of life. I can admire an athlete and not be interested in the sport. I love rural living and have some acreage but am not interested in sheep.

 

I also don't agree that one relationship with a dog can be superior to another because it's all so subjective to person/dog. My dogs come through for me in obedience and agility but yet there is an indefinable bond between my husband and one of our pit mixes who doesn't even know how to SIT on command that is both touching and indescribable. And they give each other exactly what the other needs.

 

I think that is what it boils down to for me. Sometimes the IT factor has little to do with the dogs performance. I don't think any one activity or home is superior to another...unless, and this works for both the working homes/owners and pet homes/owners, they're crappy in themselves.

 

Maria

[DebC]

Originally posted by borderlicious:

I don't feel inferior to anyone. I'm a pet owner...They are happy and well cared for, as well as being important members of the family.

 

I for one love hearing from people who work their dogs on a daily basis, and I'm glad that they stick around and share their experience with those of us who don't know as much.

Ditto!!

I have learned much about BCs and how people view the breed. I think it's wonderful to see the pictures/videos that are posted of working dogs. I am even more convinced we did the right thing by having Bo neutered, but honestly we would have anyway - it's just the responsible thing to do (IMHO). I would love to see his reaction to sheep - I believe his intensity when playing fetch is just the tip of the iceberg. And maybe someday we will introduce him to herding. That is something I never would have thought of prior to being exposed to it on this board.

I sincerely hope people like Bill stay around. I think they have much to share.