Question about REAL bones

[sweet_ceana]

I found a butcher shop near the house that packages hearts and such for dogs The also have a section of bones for dogs so of course I brought some "knuckle bones?" home. (I had a 3lb bone cut in two) Ceana and Poke chewed their bones for an hour and a half- they have never been quiet for that long! The next day Poke threw up some yellow stuff and Ceana was constipated. As of this morning her system has returned to normal lol.

 

Did I give them too much bone? Could the constipation be from the longer digestion process?

 

Also, if my dogs are kibble fed (Blue Buffalo) would it be bad to give them some raw meat everyonce and a while? The butcher shop has ground heart meat that is pretty inexpensive and I would love to give them some raw food.

[Chesney's Girl]

It sounds to me like they got too much bone. The yellow stuff I'm assuming was stomach Bile and Ceana's constipation is a normal thing if there is too much bone. I think of bones in the dogs diet as Fiber in ours. It just takes a lot to digest them.

 

I know people who mix raw and kibble and their dogs are fine. Knuckle bones if given regularly I have heard can wear down the teeth pretty rapidly but when Tucker and Chesney were eating Canidae they would get a knuckle bone twice or so a week. It sure keeps their teeth nice. I'd say if the dogs do ok with it and enjoy it go for it

[aBC4me]

I am actually dong the same thing right now as sweet_ceana and having about the same results. One day it is runny and the next morning is fine. But then the afternoon will come and he had an accident in his cage (which he has ONLY done when sick). I have given Blaze pieces of Pork neckbone and Bone Marrow (soup bones). I didn't think at the time that it was too much and as of right now am leaning towards it being the treat that we use for obedience practice (which is only about 3/4 of 1 turkey hot dog). If anyone has any other suggestions please let me (us) know.

[Laurae]

In a raw diet, consumable bones are balanced with muscle and organ meat. If you feed only bone, you will end up with a constipated dog. That is a difference between recreational (chewing) bones and consumable bones. I am not a fan of recreational bones, though, because I think any bone that isn't consumable is too hard for my dogs. Marrow bones can lead to slab tooth fractures because they are so hard. Also, the marrow in these bones is very rich, and a mainly kibble-fed dog does not typically have the internal bacterial flora to digest it very well, which leads to diarrhea.

 

This is not to say you shouldn't feed your dog bones if you are also feeding kibble. In my opinion, bones and raw meat are beneficial to any diet. I would do it a bit differently, though. I would probably feed a raw breakfast as the only meal of the day (perhaps a chicken quarter). I would consider a pork neck to be more of a meal than a recreational chewing object, so that might be another meal. I wouldn't feed kibble that same day at all—some people mix kibble and raw food with great success, but I'd feel more comfortable leaving a day between raw and kibble meals because kibble takes much longer to digest than raw food does. Thus, if you feed a kibble breakfast that normally takes 12 hours to digest and a raw dinner that normally takes 6 hours to digest, that raw material is potentially sitting behind the kibble in the intestines for several hours, perhaps allowing harmful bacteria to grow. (Dogs can eat raw food without the harmful effects people would experience because their digestive tracts are so much shorter than ours are—so harmful bacteria does not have the time it needs to grow before being digested and expelled.) These digestion times are approximate, not actual.

 

I don't mean to scare anyone away from feeding bones; on the contrary, I hope that people learn to incorporate bones into their dogs' diets without diarrhea or constipation

[Sue R]

I think that a sudden change is often the culprit.

 

When we got lots of nice bones back from this last cow we had butchered, I began feeding recreational (large, minimal-meat-attached) bones on a regular basis (three times a week, generally). What I did was to start this "new food" gradually, using smaller and less rich bones to start with and building up until all the dogs are capable of handling marrow bones (rich in fat inside) and knuckle bones (lots to chew off) or bones with a bit of fat still attached.

 

I do see a difference in their poop after a "bone day" - smaller, firmer, whiter feces. Since we feed some cooked winter squash (butternut) with each meal, their poops don't tend to get radical but rather modified by the bone days.

 

Their teeth are nice and shiny, they don't seem to be wearing excessively, and the dogs' breath is much improved (especially Bute, who has been little Mr. Stinky-Breath with his crowded and misaligned teeth). Some people don't approve of feeding recreational/weight-bearing bones because they feel that teeth can be broken on them. Others have not experienced any such problem.

 

I'm not sure but I am under the impression that pork meat/bones/ears can result in some dogs having loose bowels. I wonder if that is Blaze's problem?

 

Remember, make changes gradually. Best wishes!

[juliepoudrier]

I'm one who feeds one of my dogs kibble in the morning (with browned lamb added) and raw in the evening. Granted, her kibble ration is relatively small (1 cup), but she hasn't had any problems with this regime (and the feedings are roughly 10-12 hours apart). I imagine it depends on the dog. If I thaw out some sheep bones on a nice day and put everyone out in the yard with a bone to gnaw on (these are consumable bones), they might have a bit of loose stool the following day. I attribute it to the change in diet and the richness of the meaty bones compared to their normal kibble diet. In any case, it doesn't harm them.

 

Also, the mainly kibble-fed dogs will be given raw meat on occasion with no obvious ill effects. The raw is usually doled out more like treats (say, deer scraps) than as a meal and I haven't noticed any ill effects.

 

If I were looking to just add some raw goodies to a dog's diet, I'd probably separate the raw feedings from the kibble feedings, but I know folks who also feed it all together (I had one well-known scientist tell me of kibble and raw together "Think of it as spaghetti and meatballs.")

 

J.

[sweet_ceana]

Would it harm them to do one raw day a week? I love the convience of the kibble with us both working- and the longer digestion period, but until I am able to stay at home a full raw diet isn't an option for us. Would ground heart meat be a good meal or is it more of a treat?

[aBC4me]

Okay so I see what my problem may be then. I was simply not giving him as much cereal. I was taking it from 2 cups down to 3/4 a cup (He only eats once a day) and then giving him a piece of bone closer to the end of the night. Timing would normally be cereal at 5pm and bone at around 8pm. It is only the 3rd bone peice that he has ever had and it is normally like on a saturday night. (which is the say day that he has obedience, duh, stupid me) so I guess I will do no more hot dogs and will maybe get him a good boars head meat for obedience and then give him a bone piece on say a Wed. night. What do you think?

[Sue R]

I'd avoid luncheon meats (as much as I love Boar's Head in particular) because of high salt content, additives, and oftentimes also high fat content.

 

An excellent alternative for treats is boiled, skinless/boneless chicken breast, cut in small (1/4" is good) pieces. Another is low-fat (think ground round) cooked ground beef, drained of fat (some rinse it off) but it's a little messier to use. Also, string cheese, which can be cut in half, pulled into strings, tucked under your thumb, and then cut with your fingernail into 1/4" bits (for many little treats that you won't be dropping out of your hand all over the floor). All good treats, nutritious, healthy, and without a bunch of additives or lots of fat. And, all are reasonably priced when used in small bits (and the size doesn't matter to the dog, so treats cut in small bits go further, and offer less potential for digestive upset as you feed less in total).

 

I also like Salmon Strips by Smart Dog Treats, which I cut with a very sharp scissor into 1/4" bits. Very smelly, nutritious, and a little goes a long way.

 

I do avoid any products made in China (all the chicken jerky strips for dogs that I have checked out are from China), or with added sugars and other undesirable fillers (like the "fake hamburger" type soft dog foods and many prepackaged treats).

[Kenbo]

Question. I like the idea of feeding both raw and cereal, I have heard several people talk about chicken necks or turkey necks or chicken parts. When I was a kid I was told to never to give a dog any chicken bones. Is this true? I do like the idea of mixing it up. I read so much on this, it is starting to run together.

[aBC4me]

Kenbo - I think that only applied to COOKED chicken BONES.

 

Okay so just boil some chicken pieces then. He already gets enough dairy, DH gives him a piece everyday for lunch and I give him some sort of cottage cheese or yogurt with his food (along with some pumpkin) at least twice a week. Normally just a couple of TBSP's.

 

I will let you know how the cooked chicken pieces go.

[Chesney's Girl]

Sweet Ceana,

 

Heart meat is VERY rich (note that there isn't much grissle or marbling in it) and if fed randomly it would probably cause very runny stool. Does it need to be ground? I would look for a nice Chuck roast or cheaper cut of beef if you are thinking of a once a week raw meal. Then maybe the next month feed Pork or lamb or turkey... But I have found that with Chesney being on a raw diet where beef is the main staple of meat that he gets had made him much healthier than when he was on a diet where Chicken and Pork were fed more.

 

Also once you get the hang of feeding raw it really can be as convenient as feeding kibble if you make daily meal baggies. Once a month you prepare that months food and pull out a bag for a meal. If you forget to defrost it... Oh well it makes for a good workout and teeth cleaning.

 

Kenbo, raw bones are ok so long as they are not weight bearing bones of heavy animals (turkey, pigs, cows, sheep). Those bones have the potential to crack sharply in pieces or break teeth.

[juliepoudrier]

Kenbo,

ABC4Me is correct. Cooked chicken bones are more likely to splinter at which point they can cause damage. Raw chicken bones are generally safe for a dog to eat. That said, I know of old timers who regularly give their dogs leftover chicken bones from the human meal with no ill effects. My own dog stole a big ol' piece of chicken that was sitting on a plate in a chair at a trial when I was setting sheep--the pen person and I had left our food to go take care of a ewe who had cut herself on a cattle panel and Twist, bottomless pit that she is, saw her chance. I was a bit worried about the cooked chicken, but she didn't have any problems. We called her "chicken bone" for the rest of the day though. In any case, I wouldn't *deliberately* give my dog cooked chicken bones, but if they happen to get hold of one, it doesn't necessarily mean instant trip to the vet either. But raw bones are fine.

 

J.

[sandra s.]

Would ground heart meat be a good meal or is it more of a treat?

 

Ours get beef heart quite often (un-ground), and we have never had any problems with that. It's a nice dinner for after an exhausting day, and makes for some very content dogs!

 

edit: I'm assuming you're asking about treat vs meal because you wonder about how much of it you can give.

[Mudpups]

Heart is generally considered a muscle meat by raw feeders, so once a dog is used to it (starting off in small quanitites) it can be fed like any other muscle meat...but I tend to err on the side of caution, and give the size of a sheep heart compared to the rest of what makes up a sheep (muscle, bone, organ), I havn't given my dogs more than 1/2 sheep heart per meal, mixed with something else. They have never had the runs from it, but they get it regularly anyway. I would be cautious with large amounts of organ meat if they were given infrequently. I don't grind them, just rough chop into a few pieces. I don't buy beef heart or livers, only because my Shar-Pei is allergic to beef and it is to easy to mix it up in the freezer. Having said that, with three dogs, I will get a little more organized and package meats in a bit more orderly fashion:)

 

You could always mix a tablespoon or two (work up slowly) of ground heart with their kibble on a more regular basis if it is too rich for them just occasionally.

 

For those feeding raw only occasionaly (like once a week to once per month), a raw lamb shank or chicken quarter as one days meal would probably be the easiest way to go. If the dog is not used to raw and won't eat it, briefly searing the meat each side in a hot pan - not enough to cook or heat it, especially the bone, but just enough to make the fat/meat more 'smelly' is often enough to tempt even fussy eaters.

 

I find raw feeding very easy and convenient, and I love it when people comment on how good they look and ask what I feed them:)

 

Michelle

[pammyd]

I noticed that on weeks when I have fed lots of lamb Ben seems in much better condition than when he is on a heavy chicken day

Guess red meat is better for them

Also for a few days after an oily fish meal his coat is sooo fluffy I cant stop snuggling him

 

I 2nd the advice that raw is not that difficult

I too was thinking of just giving the odd bone, then the odd meal

Did lots of reading and after 2 days I just went totaly raw

Really it is easy

 

But if you wanna feed dry food then the odd raw day is no problem - and chucking the odd bit of raw meat when making your food is good too

 

as been said steer clear of the load bearing bones (chicken legs OK) lamb breast and neck are good and cheep here. Raw sardenes make a good snack, Ox tail if given big not small chunks and even pork ribs (although higher in fat)

Ben loves lamb and ox heart - and its cheep so he gets it a couple of times a week

And cheep human grade mince could be added to a bone meal to soften the poos - not as much fun for the dogs to eat but better than kibble

[sweet_ceana]

Thanks guys! We will be starting to incorperate some raw into their diets. I wish I could feed fish, but I am allergic blach! Heck I wish i could eat the darn stuff it is so good for you!

[Kenbo]

I just found a slaughter house in our area. We live in a small rural area and I didn't even know it was there. If you are interested in raw food, you might check. Anyway, they will sell anything for less that $1.00 a pound. Any ideas of what I should feed? Heart, Liver, kidney? How much bone and what kind. I know no weight bearing bones, but they have everything and will package and or freeze it. If you are interested check around or check with someone who might deer hunt and have them dressed. Thanks for all the help. Ken

[bc4pack]

There are tons of sources for info on raw feeding...

For example

http://www.rawfed.com

 

 

It's been talked about a good bit , so I know there are quite a few posts on the topic.

[aBC4me]

I have a question regarding when I boil the chicken for his treats for obedience classes and other training. Garlic is okay correct, I can put some in the water when I boil the chicken for him?

[bc4pack]

Yep, a bit of garlic for flavor is fine.

[Mudpups]

Garlic seems to be a debateable topic - some (including me with previous dogs) have used it for years without any problems at all, many dog foods have garlic in them, and it does help with fleas and is a natural anti-biotic. Others say that you should not feed garlic because it is in the same family as onions which are bad for dogs as it causes a particular type of anemia which apparently builds up over tim

 

I feel comfortable using small amounts, the quantity used on training treats would be minimal. Or a bit of dry parmesan cheese sprinkled over the boiled chicken bits would work as well.

 

Ken, I just found a small slaughterhouse as well, its definitely the way to go. I am having to re-adjust things a little because most of the raw food I have been feeding has bean RMB's (raw meaty bones), rather than muscle and bone seperate. So I am feeding chicken necks (BIG ones), chicken frames and sheep ribs for the bone part, I bought a few sheep necks but I think they might be considered recreational bones...I am not a raw feeding expert, but I find it very easy to do anyway.

 

The % may vary per indidivual dog, 3-5% of body weight for adults depedning on activity and metabolism, being 60-70% muscle, 25-30% bone, 5-10% organ meat/table scraps is a place to start with. You can do this every meal, or over time (eg over a period of a week). Its not an exact science, and it dosn't have to be, just look at your dogs, and check poops. Dog too fat, cut down on quantity/too skinny-add quantity. Runny poops? Add bone or reduce muscle meat (or organ meat if you are giving to much to soon). Constipated? Add muscle meat.

 

Michelle

[aBC4me]

Thank you! I will take the suggestions into consideration and may try both to see which he prefers.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Kenbo, lucky you! Our local butcher is quite a drive for us, by the time we go there we may as well go to the wholesalers or even grocery store.

 

Raw Dog Ranch is my favorite starting place to send people who want to start with raw - it's a good, sound, sensible summary of the basics of raw feeding. You need to balance bone and muscle meat, and organ meat, in amounts that promote good health over time. It also touches on supplementation and fruits and veggies as a personal choice (no DOs and DON'Ts there, just some laying out of the general thinking pro and con).

 

Sheep bones look scary but as long as they aren't feed lot grown or 12 year old ram, the dogs can eat pretty much the whole thing - even weight bearing bones in most cases. I think we had a four year old ram once that they took forever to gnaw down the femurs, but they did eventually, and safely.

 

Good luck!

[Laurae]

Sheep bones look scary but as long as they aren't feed lot grown or 12 year old ram, the dogs can eat pretty much the whole thing - even weight bearing bones in most cases. I think we had a four year old ram once that they took forever to gnaw down the femurs, but they did eventually, and safely.

 

Rebecca is right about sheep bones. And, not to sound like a broken record (I think I've told this story about six times on this site in different threads), I just want to caution folks to trim excessive fat from RMBs and muscle meat. They can handle some fat, just not a whole lot. I gave Craig a mild case of pancreatitis a couple of months ago when I fed him a very fatty piece of the ram in my freezer. What an idiot!