Jump to content
BC Boards

Open handlers--what do you think


blackacre
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 88
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Guest carol campion
Can you name some of your favourite candidates?

 

Andrea

 

Let's see. Favorite North American greats..... I have to qualify it by saying I think I should limit my answers to dogs I have actually seen run as opposed to ones I have only heard about. I am sure I am missing some great candidates but here goes a few:

 

Alasdair's Nan—for all the reasons we know

Candy Kennedy's Moss—trial winner here and abroad, hill dog, good breeder here and overseas

Jack Knox's Meg

Tom Wilson's Hope—Nursery winner, open trial winner & good breeder

Tom Wilson's Roy —for all the reasons we know-in the pedigree of Kent's Bill & Hope

Berhow's Nick

Lewis Pulfer's Dell (cheating here-never saw her run)

 

How about Karen Thomason's Lad? I didn't see him run more than once but he sure impacted North American dogs. And Amanda's Hazel. Her legacy certainly goes on.

 

Jack Knox has had many dogs over the years that could fit this category.

 

Carol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I never met Hazel but I have met some of her offspring by Boy and love all of them. I have a grandson of hers that I just love, the most fair yet most fearless/powerful dog I have ever had the pleasure of working.

 

And of course I love Roy as well, 3 of my dogs go back to him and I find that virtually any dog I really like has him in the pedigree.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anna, Could you tell me more about Puzzel? Have you watched him run a few times? It'd be nice to bring some top-notch cattle dogs into the article, something I know nothing about. Would you say the same types of characteristics make for a great cattle dog? Can you think of some other great cattle dogs?

 

Here's another question for everyone: are the great ones usually cool-headed? I've come to value this trait greatly, and wonder if it might be an important aspect that we haven't discussed yet.

 

Carol: Karen Thomason's Lad went back to Thomas Longton's great bitch Bess, right? And Tweed? So, related to both Sally Lacy's Tru and Terry Sheaffer's Tux? Did you ever see Lad run? I have to say, I saw Tux run many times for Terry and he took care of her like I've never seen another dog do. As you might know, she's a little prone to mixing up her flanks. When she'd give a wrong one, Tux often would just stop and wait. If she insisted, he'd lean a tiny bit into the flank, thus making it obvious that it was the wrong one. So then Terry would quickly give him the right flank and he'd give a little nod, metaphorically speaking, and carry on. More than once, I also saw him stop and hold the sheep on line on the last leg of the drive, on his own initiative, to give her time to get to the pen, or ignore a flank that was too early and would mean the sheep would miss a panel. He was an amazing dog.

A

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anna, Could you tell me more about Puzzel? Have you watched him run a few times? It'd be nice to bring some top-notch cattle dogs into the article, something I know nothing about. Would you say the same types of characteristics make for a great cattle dog? Can you think of some other great cattle dogs?

 

 

Not Anna here but would like to pipe up as someone who has seen Puzzel trial at our Nevada's Best trials several times. Puzzel is one of those dogs that, IMHO, proves that a good cow dog doesn't have to be an alligator- she is a smooth working, very correct and quiet dog with a strong, honest grip that I can only remember seeing her use a few times, always appropriately. Her runs on cattle were "boring" in that the cows just moved nicely from point A to point B like it was their idea She just has such a good balance between authority and precision. I saw both her parents work as well, and they were nice dogs themselves. I saw her run when she was very young too, and she was impressive from the start. I have her winning LSCDF run on videotape- just a "how to" on how to handle cattle.

 

Another great cattle dog, one who I think did not reproduce was a dog named Stu that Ted Jones had a few years ago (I've been out of the cow dog loop for awhile so not sure if he still has him). Ted is a great guy and would come every year to our trials. When he showed up one year with Stu, it was night and day from his past dogs- just a great dog and he was able to handle him very well.

 

Can't get this board at home, so will check in with this great thread on Friday!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest carol campion
Carol: Karen Thomason's Lad went back to Thomas Longton's great bitch Bess, right? And Tweed? So, related to both Sally Lacy's Tru and Terry Sheaffer's Tux? Did you ever see Lad run? I have to say, I saw Tux run many times for Terry and he took care of her like I've never seen another dog do. As you might know, she's a little prone to mixing up her flanks. When she'd give a wrong one, Tux often would just stop and wait. If she insisted, he'd lean a tiny bit into the flank, thus making it obvious that it was the wrong one. So then Terry would quickly give him the right flank and he'd give a little nod, metaphorically speaking, and carry on. More than once, I also saw him stop and hold the sheep on line on the last leg of the drive, on his own initiative, to give her time to get to the pen, or ignore a flank that was too early and would mean the sheep would miss a panel. He was an amazing dog.

A

 

Hi

 

Yes, you are correct. They were from Longton's Bess. I always take notice when I see Tweed and Bess on a pedigree. I had one off Karen's Lad and another granddaughter of Lad, Eve, daughter of Sally's Tru. Tru was special. Sally is running Eve now. I have to admit, I cheated on that one too. I only saw him run once when he was a lot older.

 

As this thread progresses, I realize that the size of this country certainly impairs our ability to recognize greats or maybe I should say, agree on greats or potential greats. I don't travel much so don't know western dogs.

 

I did agonize a bit today after naming a few dogs because in naming a few, the ones you don't name kind of get labeled. Not really fair. Again my point was that ability to produce is an important factor. Maybe it is that to me "greatness" involves legacy?

 

Another dog I'd like to mention is Eve Marschark's Spin. She was long before many of these lists existed, but was very special. She is in the background—maybe even now off the pedigree— of Annie O'Toole's dogs, Monty, Mint & Peaches. She is also in the pedigree of other current dogs. She was a great outrunner, always made her sheep, had a tremendous feel for sheep—a way with them and always stood out. A real winner here in the east.

 

This thread makes me think about pedigrees. Probably a topic for another thread, but you often hear people say "What's in a pedigree? I never breed off a pedigree."

 

I think its all in the pedigree. If you recognize what traits are carried through in what dogs, you have a great tool for recognizing traits in current dogs and it is an aid in determining how a breeding might turn out. We are not so fortunate to be able to see dogs from varying distant logistics, so have to rely on word of mouth and trial results, but a pedigree is a road map of where dogs have come from-what traits they have resulted from and where they might go. If you study patterns of what crosses reproduced what type workers, you can gain a knowledge of what combinations of bloodlines produced best and use those in determining how to breed your own dog or what puppy might carry what traits-a good outrun or a great driving dog or a certain amount of eye or power and courage.

 

Thanks again Andrea for initiating such a great topic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anna, Could you tell me more about Puzzel? Have you watched him run a few times? It'd be nice to bring some top-notch cattle dogs into the article, something I know nothing about. Would you say the same types of characteristics make for a great cattle dog? Can you think of some other great cattle dogs?

 

Ok...I first saw Puzzel when she was just barely a year old at a sheep trial--Loren was not competing with her, but using her to do exhaust, not all day, but for a dozen or more runs. Here was this little dog, doing gorgeous little outruns, handling range ewes like a pro, calm, quiet, collected--at that age. I said right then and there that I wanted one *just like that*. Two years later, when he did the same breeding again, I got my Riddle. Puzzel is one of those dogs that just makes it look all too easy, and Loren is one great handler and stockman, as well. As a team, they are both so calm and quiet when they work, and, as Jamie says, Puzzel doesn't hit unnecessarily, but when she does, it was warranted, and it's a good, clean hit. I've seen her run over the years many, many times, and I've truly never seen a more beautiful sight--the cattle just flow from one obstacle to the next. Really takes one's breath away. Whatever the stock present to her, she just handles it. She finished in the top 5 at the Cattle Finals for probably 4-5 years in a row. Some years ago now, Loren was working her at his place, and afterwards, he took her to the creek on the property to cool down. He noticed some blood on her mouth, but thought she must have just bitten her tongue (which bleeds like crazy). On closer inspection, he noticed that "some teeth were facing the wrong way." She had apparently been kicked and had broken her jaw, but never missed a beat and just kept working.

 

Addressing Carol's point about pedigrees--Puzzel is out of Lucky, who is line bred Wisp (she is one of those Wisp granddaughters that someone mentioned earlier in this thread), by Russell, who is a Stetson son that goes back to Jimmy Walker's Sam. These lines seem to be running pretty darn consistently, as Riddle is, indeed, just like her big sis. Puzzel's first litter was by Rudy, another Stetson son, so the offspring are now line bred to the Stetson side. I've worked with 4 out of the 8 in that litter, and they were all very similar. The major difference that I can see a this point is a result from the trainer and handler that each had. When I bred Riddle, I bred to Rudy also. Again, very consistent, very similar ways of working, similar approach to their stock. Puzzel has now been bred to Loren's young dog, Leo (not sure of his pedigree), and I've not seen them work, but Lana has two of them. She must have liked what she saw in the first one, and got another from a subsequent breeding.

 

You mention cool-headed. I've always called it level-headed, but, yes, it's a very important trait to me, and this line has it. They (particularly the females) mature REALLY young, and are just all business. When they need to go in to hit, they do, and hold their ground. They don't get all jacked up over it and want to keep hitting or hang on or do something stupid, like many cattle-working dogs I see do; they just let the stock know who's in charge, thank you very much, and go about their business. It's as if it has never occurred to them to not just walk up calmly on their stock, no matter how nasty the stock may be.

 

So, yes, to me, the same things that make a great sheepdog make a great cattledog. It has to do with a variety of settings, a variety of stock, handling it all with ease, thinking on their own and doing what needs to be done without necessarily being told all the time, and then, especially for cattle--balls of steel. What I mean by that is the ability to walk up to a stubborn cow/calf, look them right in the eye, and if the stock doesn't move, calmly give a good hard nose hit, hold ground, and wait for the stock to turn and move off. No lunging in or cheap shots or fly-bys, just business as usual. Since a group of cattle is much more likely to contain "individual thinkers" and with three head (like at a trial), it's very possible to have them going in three different directions (at a dead run), much more so than sheep, I think the good cattle dogs really have to be thinking all the time. It's just part of the project that the dog has to think and work on its own to keep the group together; or the dog may have one that will go with the group, but grudgingly, all the way around the course. So the dog has to work way harder, I think, to not only get them from point A to point B, but to keep them as a group.

 

Other top cattle dogs? Probably Pete Carmichael's Nap and Hooker--both always very consistent. I'll have to give it some more thought--brain is shutting down now,

 

A

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thinking........ :rolleyes:

 

To me, not so many people will agree, but you and I watched Tux with Terry at JP's. that time. He had her trained so well to give him the right command. That was a truely great moment.

For those of you not there, Terry Sheaffer got Tux from Marilyn Fischer. He had some outrun issues, but was what she considered a good dog. With Terry, there was a blending of talent, and that dog covered Terry's butt so many times. The time in question. was in Open in Canada, many yeasrs ago, at JP's. Terry kept giving the wrong flanks, and Tux kept ignoring her. Then they came to the cross drive panel. She should have said -'come-bye', but said 'way to me'. Tux stopped, looked over his shoulder as if to say 'What are you thinking???" Terry humbly said come bye and the dog walked on to make a perfect turn.

 

To me this exemplifies the whole quandry here.... should we be talking about great dogs, or great moments with good dogs. I think most dogs have moments of greatness, and that is probably what most of us here have been talking about . How can we seperate a dog with great moments from the whole issue of labeling a dog as 'GREAT' ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

>>>Then they came to the cross drive panel. She should have said -'come-bye', but said 'way to me'. Tux stopped, looked over his shoulder as if to say 'What are you thinking???" <<<<<

 

 

I have done this !!

 

When I do it, Tess will stop, turn her head to look at me, whip out her *MORON* stamp, stamp me on my forehead and then do the proper flank after I say "Tess, <insert proper flank>"

 

The look she gives me reminds me of the look the ole school marm would give you....it will freeze you in your shoes.

 

 

Diane

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Andrea wrote

Denise, Marilyn, Wendy, Nancy O, Charlie, Laura H, Mark . . . how about some names? Julie P? Christine?

 

Andrea,

 

Don't really have alot of knowledge to be able to contribute. Most of the dogs mentioned were before I became involved in this sport, started trialling in N/N 5 years ago this spring.

 

Dogs that catch my eye all tend to have the same method of working, and Andrea they are all cool headed. And interesting enough, when I've inquired, they all have Johnny Wilson's Spot in the pedigree and usually Wisp in there once or twice.

 

With the size of the country, it's hard to watch any but local dogs, worked and trialed on a regular basis, to be able to form any type of opinion.

 

Nancy O

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As I said, I think all dogs have GREAT moments. Maybe that is why this subject is so complex, and hard to define.

 

Yes, I think that's true. But, does that mean "great" will depend on consensus among the voters?

 

It seems like lots of handlers have the sense that one or two of the dogs they've worked with are "great" (which will be different than the "best" dogs or handler/dog teams). Like many traits, "great" will always be relative to some degree--a good dog for a big hat might be a great dog for a medium or little hat. Which brings the issue of the handler back into the picture, of course.

 

From the things that people have consistently mentioned, it seems like great dogs have:

 

Cool or level heads

Courage

Stability

Consistency

Tenacity

Good intuition/self-reliance when necessary

 

 

Naturally, that's on top of the "basic" start-up package required of the task in the first place (for instance, I"m sure there are good working Golden Retreivers or JRTs with those traits.... :rolleyes:)

 

Are these possibly the same traits that great handlers have as well?

 

The discussion of Tux makes me wonder if handler/dog teams have an element of "breeding" built in. To get a great team, do the handler and dog need to offer one another complementary rather than overlapping skills/strengths/inherent aptitude?

 

As an aside, I think Kelly Murnighan's Molly is a pretty special sheepdog (and not only because she's my Kyzer's mama....).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Denise!

 

I think it's kind of like Robin said earlier about her and Spottie. Zac is a great dog for me and the younger generation have big paws to fill because of him. But, would he fill the role as GREAT dog in general or is it that we just have a great partnership. He can't breed (neutered) so he can only fill 2 out of the 3 roles. Kind of the same thing with Nell. She's a great ranch dog and a fantastic producer. She herself never lit the trial world on fire though.

 

I've been thinking about this thread quite a little the last few days. We were processing a bunch of new feeder calves yesterday. They came straight from the salebarn and have never seen a dog in their life. Well, not a working one at least. We unload them, let them settle in and get a drink for a little bit then I take a couple of dogs and work them around in the corral for a bit to get them used to the dogs before we run them through the chute.

 

Jag and Nell were the ones helping and all I had to do was open a gate and close it behind each bunch they would bring, turn up the lane and put in the tub for us. Not a huge job by any means but it saves me a thousand steps through the mud and slop. They worked without much help from me but listened when asked.

 

A neighbor stopped by while we were branding them and stayed to help. He has absolutely no love for Border Collies. He explained to me that he wouldn't have dogs like mine because he prefers a dog that will stay behind his horse and only come out when he says "sic'em". We debated back and forth for a bit about what makes a dog great or at the very least darn good. Of course I had to comment that I hate fixing fence so any dog that causes me to have to do more of that is checked OFF the list in a hurry! :D I finally just said to each his own and if the dog gets the job done you need done it's at the very least a good one.

 

I have come to the conclusion that it's just to variable and that it really is in the eyes of the beholder. So, heck yeah I think Zac and Nell are both great dogs! :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Two dogs I have seen who impressed me a great deal, primarily due to their value as independent and thinking partners in both work and trial situations, are Steve Clendenin's Hap, and Bill Berhow's Pete. Both dogs you could count on to hold up their end of the bargain and make the right decisions -- true partners.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's kind of like Robin said earlier about her and Spottie. Zac is a great dog for me and the younger generation have big paws to fill because of him. But, would he fill the role as GREAT dog in general or is it that we just have a great partnership.

 

Exactly! I hope one of the younger ones becomes as comfortable as Spottie is for me someday. I've never been one bit nervous when i step to the post with her because she fits like a well broken in pair of gloves. She's won some trials, she's produced good pups, and she brought me a looooong way along in my dog trialing. So yeah, a great dog for me. All my future dogs, better or worse, owe her something. I sure i'll have better dogs by other measures (heck, i already do) but she's been a *good* dog for me by any measure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Denise that greatness is not measured on the least number of faults or the greatnest number of strenghs... it is based on the entire package... the big picture.

 

I think David's Holly was a great dog, and I am not saying this because he is my husband. She is just basic farm dog breeding, but she had so much heart, courage and stamina.

 

I also think stamina has a lot to do with greatness. A lot of dogs don't have much stamina and I think that is weakening the breed some. We should be breeding for work ethic, for dogs that can do a hard days work and still have the strength and heart to do more. And consistency... a dog that has a solid temperment and gives you everything they have day in and day out. Not on one day and off the next. We need dogs that are there for us and that we can count on in a tough situation... whether moving tough ewes and lambs or having that extra spark and knowledge to stop one sheep that is about to break away at the pen gate.

 

Ken Arrendale's Mac is another great one to me... in spite of Kenneth's inexperience in the beginning, that dog was a star! He had the entire package (with good looks to boot)! Plus Mac has been a good producer... David's McCloud, David's Vic, my Bess, Kenneth's Wolf and Belle to name a few.

 

Another great one on my list is Norma Stewart's Jill. I have seen Jill take off on her own to search out five rogue sheep that had disappeared in the woods, when we had no idea where they were. Norma was searching in the thick brush and woods and I had starting walking to join her. Next thing I know here comes Jill with those sheep marching them all back! It was pretty amazing that she did this all on her own with no commands and not knowing where the sheep were and where we were after she found them.

 

On a personal note - my Rook might not be the greatest dog in the world, but he is the greatest dog for me. We know eachother like mother and child, we read eachother's minds, he helps me and I help him. As a working dog he has all the qualities I want in a dog. He has that quiet kind of power that doesn't upset the stock, but will move ewes with lambs or tough rams with ease. But, those things are not what makes him great. I will never have the special bond with any other dog like I have with Rook. I may have a better dog some day, but no other dog will ever replace Rook. To me, that is greatness! I have total confidence in him, in any situation, and he has that same trust in me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

>>>But does that make Tess and Tux qualify as a 'GREAT' dog? (to everyone, not just you Diane!)<<<

 

I had to think about this one for a bit. Tess has done quite a bit in her life, the third dog to get her ROM, 6th in Nursery Finals, open trial winner, also ran as open dog at Finals , her pups have qualified for cow dog and sheepdog nursery. One ran at cowdog nursery and is a succesful cattle/sheep dog while others are Open trial winners.. others work on large cattle operations. Her granddaughter just worked over the winter at a sheep range, over 3000 sheep. Tess works sheep, cattle, llamas etc...and she works ewes/lambs, rams, un-dog broke cows, range sheep, works tireless and never quits, does quite a bit of work using her brain in spite of me, is my right hand, often doing what I want her to do on farm before I open my mouth.....and in my eyes, she will be the greatest dog that I have ever had. And to top it off, she has made me the handler that I am today and for that I am gratefulto her.

 

So she may not be great in your eyes but in my eyes she is my *shining star* I am sure everyone has a great dog in their life too. Mine is named Tess....the $100 toss away puppy.

 

Diane

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed Diane! This is such a complex question. Because I never get to see Tess run (other than the Klamath nursery) and don't personally know the dog to have the additional knowlege available that you cited, how can we say a dog is 'GREAT'?

 

When we only get to see about 10-15 minutes of a dog's life on the trial scene, a circumstance such as what I described with Tux stands out in our mind if we are paying attention. I personally can't commit to describing a dog as GREAT, unless I am priviy to the additional info that you just posted. Frankly, we all see GREAT moments in our dogs. Maybe that is because all these dogs are capable of being GREAT, we just need to expand our expectations, and let them come up to the tasks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a bit l late to this thread but will share some thoughts.

 

I'd like to add Michele Howard's Spot to the list of great dogs. Scottish Nursery champion, and consistent and strong Open competitor....beautiful to watch work. His progeny will definitely influence the breed here in North America (again, that Henderson line). I may miss some of his notable offspring (esp on the East Coast) because they are many, but include:

 

Tommy Wilson's Sly

Joni Swanke's Lew and Chip (deceased)

Haley Howard's Ross (2006 Nursery Champion)

Laura Hick's Jag

Diane Pagel's Nana

And many other excellent working trial and ranch dogs.

 

My Rye has been a very good dog for me and we've had some success on the trial field....His full siblings are Amanda Milliken's Natl Ch Bart and Ethel. Through his sire, Stuart Davidson's ##Craig, he is half sibling to Bev Lambert's Pippa, Duncan Robertson's Scottish #Cap, Joyce Geier's Clue, Libby Neider's Lynn, J. Wilsons Jill (mother of ##Maid and Scottish Nursery Res Ch Drift) and others. Maybe Craig could be given some credit.

 

EDIT: Moved a portion to other appropriate thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

>>>I'd like to add Michele Howard's Spot to the list of great dogs. Scottish Nursery champion, and consistent and strong Open competitor....beautiful to watch work. His progeny will definitely influence the breed here in North America (again, that Henderson line). I may miss some of his notable offspring (esp on the East Coast) because they are many, but include:

 

Tommy Wilson's Sly

Joni Swanke's Lew and Chip (deceased)

Haley Howard's Ross (2006 Nursery Champion)

Laura Hick's Jag

Diane Pagel's Nana<<<<<

 

I LOVE my Nana....she, too, is becoming my heart dog, talented and very sweet and gives me her all. She got 4th at the last trial and just ran her heart out. I am thankful that she came to me

 

Diane

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a nobody in the trialing world, but have heard enough open handlers who were around back in the day mention this dog as a great dog, and the many wonderful stories about him that seem to bring a smile to those speaking of him, that I'm throwing this team in the mix.

Roy Johnson and Roscoe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...