I like these sheep

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

What I mean by pasture being a problem is that we have two times a year when the ground is open, unless you have very well-managed forage. Again, more expense for not much return. We don't have (at least not around these parts) thick pasture all summer. I've talked with cattlemen around here and apparently the July-Aug dry spell is something I can pretty much count on each year.

 

This means the ewes and replacements are essentially drylotted twice a year. This year we are doubling our small paddock space so they don't completely destroy these lots during the dry season, but that's assuming it's normal weather. And feeding the round bales makes for very poor wool, on top of the fact that my wool is very coarse and open to begin with.

 

Fine wool tends to hold heat worse and the sheep really suffer. The heat starts in April and doesn't let up until Nov, with warm days on and off all winter (it was near seventy today). Open or no fleece helps greatly. When they are too hot, sheep just plain don't eat. With their light fleeces, mine eat all day in the blazing heat.

 

It's easy to brush off the trouble and expense of a shearer when it's very easy to get one - but shearers, even the nicest ones, just aren't in a big hurry to visit the small flocks. And as Julie said a reliable one is worth paying extra, but that's real money that has to be factored into the cost of each head retained, each year.

 

There's a place for hair sheep. Wool sheep aren't the top of their game in every situation. I like wool sheep for various reasons but they have nothing to do with any notion that hair sheep are inferior.

[Bill Fosher]

There's a place for hair sheep. Wool sheep aren't the top of their game in every situation. I like wool sheep for various reasons but they have nothing to do with any notion that hair sheep are inferior.

 

I have been at great pains to say that there are places for hair sheep. I've mentioned them as maternal breeds, as hothouse lamb producers, as pasture conditioners for beef cattle operations, as range ewes in the Texas desert country, and as small commercial flocks in the mid-Atlantic. I just don't think they're the magic bullet that their promoters claim they are, and when someone comes here asking for advice before buying what she expects to be expensive registered stock, I thought it would be good to do a little truth-squadding on the breed association baloney that she posted. And, unlike most hair sheep breeders, I have some real world numbers that back me up. I haven't seen anything that says my economic analysis doesn't hold up to scrutiny or that hair sheep flocks are having radically different production results than I did on the two flocks that I worked directly with. (I don't consider 90 pounds to be radically different from 85. Close enough that I don't feel the need to run the numbers again.)

 

Thing is, I've probably raised more hair sheep lambs than many breeders. Even though I only did it for three years, I've raised about 900 hair sheep lambs to market, 750 of them from birth. And I've reared them both intensively and extensively. Even raised a few fall lambs entirely on feed in the barn -- these were the ones that performed the best. I lambed out 200 hair sheep ewes two years running, and raised purchased lambs the year before that. And I helped raise another 400 purchased lambs as a hired shepherd. The sort of results I sited were a pattern across management systems, across four different years, and in three different parts of New England -- coastal and inland Mass, and inland New Hampshire at moderate elevation.

 

I think, and I'm not alone in this, that there is a real problem with low productivity in the hair sheep breeds generally. And unless and until hair sheep breeders step up to the plate and at least start tracking some numbers, and then start doing something about them, the hair sheep breeds will be relegated to niche markets within a niche market.

 

If you guys like them better because they work better for the dogs in your hot climate. That is a legitimate reason for you to own them. I would never say otherwise. But if you want to rationalize them as productive sheep, you should know where they stand within the sheep industry.

 

I give up.

[1sheepdoggal]

Well, since Im the one that asked, I just wanted to say Bill, to you, and everyone else that posted, that I thank you and appreciate "all" the info and discussion about the different types of sheep, and the reasonings for their pro's and cons on both sides. It has for me, been an interesting and eye opening thread, full of thoughtful, and useful informaton, and ideas. I think what Im going to do, is research a bit more, on a few more different breeds and crosses, and perhaps "try" a few breeeding age St. Croix ewes this year and see how I like them and how they do over the course of next few years. I had two other questions though. I understood production records, but what is EPD's? And what is the meaning of terminal when you use it in saying " a terminal sire?" Dont give up on me so soon Bill, we're not through yet.

 

Becca, you said you knew of a few PB herds here in NC? I only found breeders in SC. Can you PM me and give me a line on where I can find those folks please? Oh too, did you get my message about those Kom pups?

[juliepoudrier]

Becca, you said you knew of a few PB herds here in NC? I only found breeders in SC. Can you PM me and give me a line on where I can find those folks please? Oh too, did you get my message about those Kom pups?

Darci,

I'm not Becca, and it's not NC, but I believe there is a large purebred flock in Suffolk, VA, that sometimes has some for sale. If that's not too far for you, I can search around for their information. Becca may have it as well.

 

Bill,

Please keep giving your input. You're one of the few commercial producers who posts here, and I for one, like getting your perspective on things. Most of the rest of us here are not making a living off our sheep (they are a side income, not our sole source of income), and that can make a huge difference in points of view or flexibility in what we keep, I suspect. And you're right that most breed hype is just that--hype--and it never hurts to have it pointed out.

 

J.

[Bill Fosher]

Hi Darci,

 

EPD = Expected Progeny Difference. It's the result of genetic analysis through a program like the National Sheep Improvement Program or LambPlan (which actually produces a technically different product called an Expected Breeding Value). What these programs do is quantify traits and by examining them across related individuals in many different flocks they can separate what performance is due to environment and management, and what is due to genetics. The offspring of a ram with an EBV of + 8.0 kg for 100 day weight will, on average, produce lambs that weigh 8 kg more than the breed average at 100 days.

 

Terminal sire = a ram whose lambs are marketed, and not retained within the flock.

[Cynthia P]

Terminal sire = a ram whose lambs are marketed, and not retained within the flock.

 

People often use the term Terminal sire for those sheep that do not have maternal characteristics( maternal...easy lambing, twins trips, high lambing percentage...lots of milk);

 

Terminal sires produce lambs that finish quickly, are usually large carcass size, breeds like Texel, Charlais, Suffolk; that people will cross on their ewes to increase market size of their lambs.

 

Terminal sired lambs are lambs you don't keep in your flock, not looking for good mothering ability, growth and finishing is the key.

 

Bill, we have not as of yet in our commercial flock tracked enough data but will be starting this year. This is the fourth year in our commercial flock and I wish I had started on day one....however I don't think I had enough information; The dorset ram we bought this year to cover a portion of our flock (however the ram lambs broke out for 48 hrs. and covered a great deal a month before we were to seperate into breeding groups) has an outstanding maternal index;

 

Cynthia

[Pipedream Farm]

I too appreciate Bill's point of view (that of a commercial producer).

 

I think the difficulty with these discussions is the vast differences we all have in flock size, climate, sheep production infrastructure (available shearers, distance to markets, butchers, etc), and customer preferences in the ultimate market for the products (direct vs. wholesale). All of these factors must be weighed when determining which breed will work best.

 

Mark

[1sheepdoggal]

Thanks guys....er, and gals. Do you think that folks that raise non registered flocks would keep records such as EPD"s and production records? Dont think Id want to have a terminal sire then, as I would be wanting to hold on to any ewe lambs for the first few years. And would it behoove me to start keeping records of such things even in a group that was mixed katahdin and St. Croix? And if so, what types of things would it be best to keep track of? Now Im wishing Id have kept a few of the ram lambs outta 2 yrs ago's lamb crop, as it is I only kept the ram that I had planned to keep as my herd sire. He is 2 now, and hitting on close if not right at 200lbs. For the breed, a size that i wouldnt consider scranwy? Also, I was told, that I could continue to use him with any ewe lambs that he sired this year, when I planned on breeding them, is that correct? Or am I askin for trouble if I do?

 

 

Julie, Sure, if you dont mind, I'll look around too, and we can compare notes. Thanks.

 

 

Thats not all wool, under that coat, theres a pretty solid ram. When he sheds off in the spring, he really surprises me from one yr to the next, how much he's grown. Be it, still, growing at a slower pace. But, I hadnt really poured the feed to them either. Mostly they are just on pasture, and hay, with very little in the way of suppliments. I reckon if I had, that would be noted as in environmentle?

[Bill Fosher]

Hi Darci,

 

I think the number of hair sheep flocks enrolled in a genetic analysis program is pretty low. I know that Katahdins are a breed that is with the NSIP, and the NSIP will only deal with registered sheep. You might find some breeders who are working with LambPlan, the Australian program, which will process records from unregistered flocks as well as crossbreds provided there are enough genetic linkages within the flock.

 

You should be able to find sheep with production records, which would be the next best thing to genetic analysis. At least it gives you some assurance that the animals you're buying have performed in a certain way, or are the offspring of such an animal. You do need to know what is recorded, how it's recorded, and of course, you have to evaluate the credibility of the source. I looked at a flock of Dorsets one time that had no ear tags, but the seller claimed to have production records. As I sorted through the sheep, they were all twins out of twins, if you can believe it!

[1sheepdoggal]

Double post

[1sheepdoggal]

Thanks Bill, I think thats probably a good idea to try to find some one who keeps records, but an even better idea ( one which I woulnt have thought about) to remember to evaluate the credibilty of the source. I would have thought if they keep records, well then, they must be right. I tend to take things at face value when some one tells me some thing and dont think about if anyone would lie or falsify records. Yes, I belive about the twins out of twins, thats why I chose the ones I kept, in hopes that that was true. So far, so good. Thats what Im seeing, as I have gone over my own hand written records on these ewes and their mothers, and by the sire of my ram ( what Ive known him to throw with my older ewes), and now with my ram, and thier daughters. I have one gal Im keeping an eye on right now, she is out of trips, and I gotta funny feeling thats whats she's carrying.