lance Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Today I was on the beach with Bandit. It's a dog friendly Beach with more dogs off lease than on usually. Bandit ran up to a leased Golden Retriever to play. When I saw the Woman pulling her dog away from Bandit, I whisled for Bandit to come to me, which he did. As the woman was passing me she commented that I should have him on a lease! I replied that he only wanted to play! To which she said in distain, That Bandit was growling! I replied that Bandit is a Border Collie, A sheep hearding breed, that uses little growls during hearding of sheep. My question to members here who have border colies who heard sheep is ,Do Border Collies really have a growl to control Sheep? I really don't know! Because Bandit is a sweet,playful dog who sometimes has a little cute growl when playing with other dogs, I always felt it must be something used for controling Sheep. It's 2 am in the morning now! I hope this post makes sense! Lance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Mine use little growls and sometimes larger ones when playing. I have never heard Jackson growl at stock though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berocca Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Delta is always making little 'talky growl' noises when she is playing. It is a little unnerving to someone who isn't used to it and I worry that a dog will interpret it wrong one day, although she plays with hundreds of different dogs and none have ever had a problem. Makes sense that dogs would be better at understanding the meanings of growls than people though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 My dog has a hard time playing, because he's so tense around other dogs... but when he plays hard with me, his rubber dog, or the few dogs he loves, he does the talky-growly thing. Definitely. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OffTopic Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 You might want to think about this from the woman's perspective. She's walking her dog on lead and a strange dog runs up and starts growling. You know that Bandit is friendly, but she had no way of knowing. What if her dog had been reactive? If her dog had attacked Bandit and one of them were injured as a result (or she had been injured) you would have been responsible. Just remember that not all dogs are friendly and it's not only rude to allow your dog to "accost" a dog on lead, it's potentially dangerous for your dog. Maybe you were apologetic to her ("well, I'm sorry, but he was just wanting to play" doesn't really count). Just going by what you posted it sounds like you got defensive with her. You were in the wrong in this situation, IMO. Again, I'm just basing this on what you wrote. If you did sincerely apologize, then good for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 ^^My thoughts exactly. My dogs are very vocal during play, that's normal. If Bandit was just playing, that's fine, but she had no way of knowing. As far as growling during working, no. I'm no expert, but I really don't think border collies vocalize much (or at all?) when working stock. When my Jack gets a little amped up, he will make some noises, somewhere between a growl or bark (hard to explain), but he's a mix. I've never heard a real BC working that made noise. I'm sure those with more experience could correct me if I'm wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Ive had young immature pups when first introduced to stock, growl, and some times bark, but never heard any of my more mature dogs make any sounds except heavy panting when on stock. No growlong, no barking. I would think this unacceptable behavior while working. Makes the stock to nervous, and the dog doesnt have the focus it should. Barking while on stock, would seem to me that a dog was unsure, and insecure, and used the barking more as an outlet to frustration and fear. Oh, and Im not trying to be a wize aker here, but Ive seen this in a number of posts latly, and 3 times in this one. Its HERDING, not HEARDING. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BustopherJones Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Annie does not herd sheep, so I can't comment on that issue. The only time I have ever heard Annie growl is when she is playing with a tug toy, so I associate her growling with play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I'm also no expert, but I've never heard Quinn growl at the sheep. At his second lesson, he had a brief barking jag, but he quickly discovered such silliness got him nowhere. Since then he's always silent when he works. Like lots of dogs, he will growl when he plays, though. On the other hand, he'll growl when he wants a dog to back off. It sounds like Bandit has a really reliable recall, which is great. I'd want to use that wonderful recall to keep Bandit from running up to other dogs on leash. I'm assuming this isn't a dog park where the dogs were allowed/expected to be off lead. When I'm out walking with my dogs, I do not want other dogs rushing up to us. While it is good to know a dog is friendly, my sheltie feels threatened by strange dogs intruding into her space. She has the right to walk in public unaccosted. And sometimes even two friendly dogs don't hit it off or that "friendly" dog isn't really as kindly as his owners states. I find it's just better to make sure other dogs' owners are ok with interaction with your dog before allowing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INU Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I replied that Bandit is a Border Collie, A sheep hearding breed, that uses little growls during hearding of sheep. My question to members here who have border colies who heard sheep is ,Do Border Collies really have a growl to control Sheep? I really don't know! Did you hear about the "BC growl' somewhere? It sounds like you told this lady something you weren't sure of...?? I've never heard of this and curious to know what the experts say. Unless it's off-leash area, I wouldn't let my dogs approach leashed dogs. There must be a reason why those dogs are on leash when other dogs are off-leash playing. Leashed dogs tend to be more defensive when approached by unleashed dogs too. My guess was that Bandit is infact a friendly dog but the other dog wasn't... and it didn't want Bandit in his space so it growled or send signals which Bandit reacted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 INU, I don't think it's fair to assume that it was the woman's dog who was growling and that it was on a leash because it has problems. It might have been on leash because she was new to the beach - or because, no matter what "most people" do, the rules say to keep dogs on leash. We don't know. So we cannot assume that this was an aggressive dog that needed restraint. When we have Fergie off leash and see another dog we don't know - on or off leash - we put the leash on Fergie. I would never let her run up to some unknown dog who does not know us. It does not seem fair to me. And, if Bandit ran up to us, with owner lagging behind, I'd be upset whether or not the dog growled. Fergie does not growl when meeting another dog unless said dog gets to jumpy or too rude about sniffing. And then Fergie does mean that the dog should mind its manners. She might do a play bow and give a little bark, but she'd never growl. Fergie does growl when playing with toys or sticks. We thought it was because we growled at her - still do - when we taught her about playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silhouettestable Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 No idea about growling when herding, mine don't herd. They are however very vocal when playing. Barking, yipping and what sounds like vicious snarling (made all the more vicious looking by the bared teeth). If you didn't know my dogs you'd swear they were going to rip each other to bits, but nobody ever gets hurt. Lightning's the worst for it, he growls and snarls for all different reasons. When he's playing, when he wants to be left alone etc. With our own dogs, not others. But, he doesn't enforce the growl when he wants to be left alone, he's just all snarly bitey-face and they know he isn't all that serious, that there's no real bite behind the bark. If he acted that way towards strange dogs though I'd worry that he'd trigger a bad reaction, and if someone else's dog came running up to mine and growled I'd be concerned (unless there were obvious cues to play at the same time, like play bowing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lance Posted February 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Thanks everyone for your input. When I'm on the beach with Bandit and we are aproaching a leased dog or kids playing, I do normally put his lease on. But there are ocasional times that owners with there dogs appear out of no where, and Bandit, who likes to roam ahead will be with dog before I can either get to him or call him back. The woman with the leased dog over reacted I believe. Bandit was his friendly self with tail wagging. I noticed the woman was pulling her dog in anther direction as Bandit aproached. That's why I called Bandit back. If a strange dog were to aproach Bandit to play, I look to see if dog is wagging it's tail, and other body language. Now I know that Border collies are not vocal when hearding sheep, thanks to some posts here! Lance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 HERDING, LANCE, HERDING! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BustopherJones Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 "hukt awn fonix" wurkt four mee two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 The woman with the leased dog over reacted I believe. Bandit was his friendly self with tail wagging. I noticed the woman was pulling her dog in anther direction as Bandit aproached. That's why I called Bandit back. We don't know that she necessarily over-reacted. Perhaps her dog is fearful like my sheltie and Bandit was stressing the Golden out. Perhaps her dog has been attacked by a dog or dogs who at first seemed friendly and she doesn't want a repeat of that nightmare experience. Perhaps she just wants to walk her dog in peace. Also, just because the dog is wagging his tail doesn't mean he's friendly. Quite frankly, I don't feel I need to be the one making that decision about a dog I don't know and often don't want to know. Bandit sounds like a great dog, but not everyone knows that. It should be a mutual decision between you and the other dog's owner whether to introduce the dogs and maybe let them play. I would also be concerned that in those situations where people and their dogs appear out of nowhere and Bandit is on top of them before you can get him back with you. With an aggressive dog in that situation, Bandit could wind up in a nasty fight. There are some seriously dog aggressive dogs out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsofmenace Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 ^^^ I agree. When an off-leash dogs starts approaching us, friendly body language or not, I turn my dog away. Our dog is quite reactive and it doesn't matter how friendly the dog is being, sometimes he reacts. When people say "Oh, he's friendly!" or "He just wants to play!" it bothers me. Honestly, if our dog saw Bandit run up to him, friendly as he may be, there probably would have been a fight. I would just be careful about it, and don't be offended if someone tells you to call your dog or tries to turn away, since there is probably a good reason for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 My question to members here who have border collies who heard sheep is ,Do Border Collies really have a growl to control Sheep? NO! barking or growling might be "heard" out of a young dog that's unsure but NEVER out of a dog in control of his sheep. Or never out of one worth it's salt. I guess one exception to that rule for me might be: I've seen Mick moving sheep and an LGD will jump in his way trying to play. Mick will growl at the lgd to get him out of the way then he's back to silently working his stock. I've also seen him take a second to jump one of them who insisted on continuing to bother him while moving sheep, then he's back to his silent work. Now when he's doing something like holding ewes off the feeders while I'm filling them and a lamb will nosey up to him, he might air snap at it to let it know to back off but most of the time he ignores them. I think he's got an age cut off that they get airsnapped after a certain age but if really young, he allows them to sniff him up and down. Not to climb on him but then he just gets up and moves, with a disgusted look on his face. Never at the his sheep. Even if he's mad at a hard headed sheep. He might give it a nip on the butt or a run for it's money, but that's all. I've seen and worked lots of dogs. No growling. I think that you might have gotten a bit defensive when your playful dog was misinterpreted as aggressive. I can only say, glad it was that way instead of the reverse. Mine are not to "strange dog" friendly, they won't go out of their way to greet or beat other dogs and will growl if they feel another dog is being rude about their personal space. No big deal Lance, Live and learn. But again. for the record...No growling on sheep! Kristen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SweetJordan Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I saw that in a book at the bookstore. It said that Border Collies make a lot of noise when herding sheep. You would think that if you were writing a book that you would at least get your facts straight, but I know misinformation is printed all the time. I of course knew that this wasn't true just from taking Riley out to the farm and watching her and the other BCs work. Riley had a problem once having to wait her turn(she started to carry on), but as soon as she got in the pen she was quite. She just couldn't stand being in the presence of sheep and not being able to work them, and wasn't use to having to wait her turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OffTopic Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Lance, I know this isn't the question you asked, but your post brings up a much more important point that I really, really hope you're hearing. But there are ocasional times that owners with there dogs appear out of no where, and Bandit, who likes to roam ahead will be with dog before I can either get to him or call him back. This says to me that you don't have control of your dog and until you do, he should be leashed. Or, if you can control him, you should do so by stopping him from roaming ahead of you and you should train him not to approach other dogs, especially dogs on leashes. It sounds like he's got a great recall and he sounds like a wonderful dog, so training him to stick close to you should be a piece of cake. I know you didn't ask anyone's opinion on this, but it's important. It's important because it's the right thing to do in a public space. It's not just your space and other people have the right to walk their dogs in peace. Other people have the right to walk their dogs on leashes without having to worry about your dog running up to them. (One more time) You need to keep your dog from running up to other dogs. If you can't, you need to keep him on a leash. It's not fair to the other people on the beach. It's important for the safety of your dog. Never mind the other people for a minute. You are putting your dog at risk by allowing this behavior. Your dog could get hurt by an aggressive dog. Your dog could annoy someone so much that they call animal control. And if there is a leash law on the beach, your dog (no matter how friendly) can be seized if he's off leash. And if that person feels threatened by his growling, they can say that your dog acted in an aggressive manner. Then your dog could be in deep doo-doo, my friend. Bandit is a beautiful dog. Do right by him. If you're having difficulty keeping him close, there are tons of people here who I'm sure would be happy to give you some training tips. Just ask! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4pack Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 AMEN!!! And this may be mean: along with 'herding'... LEASH, LEASHES and LEASHED... Lease= Rent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 Lance, Back when I used to work in the Hampton Roads area, I used to take Twist (and maybe another of my dogs) to the beach at Phoebus a lot. Twist generally did her own thing and ignored other people and their dogs. Nothing irritated me more, though, than when people just let their dogs come running up to us uninvited. I have a right to walk my dog(s) in peace (on or off leash) without every yahoo's dog coming up to meet and greet. I don't care if your (the generic you) dog is friendly or not--if I wanted my dog to socialize with other dogs, I wouldn't deliberately be keeping them away from them in a public space or I'd go to a dog park. While you may think the other person overreacted, I probably would have done the same, and maybe even have been less polite about it. It's in situations like the one you describe where if a scuffle breaks out and a dog gets bit, the person whose dog was running loose will be the one to blame. Others here have noted that leashed dogs can feel trapped when approached by an unleashed dog, which can result in a less than positive reaction. In the future instead of thinking only of yourself and your dog, try to consider how the other person you're approaching feels, and how you'd feel if you were trying to walk Bandit on a leash and someone else let their dog, one you don't know at all, but which is growling (wagging tails don't necessarily mean "I want to play") come running up to you. For the record, the only time I've ever heard a working border collie make noise while working was when a supreme effort was being made, and then the noise was more like a human would make (a grunt) from exertion, not a growl, and I've heard it very rarely. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lance Posted February 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 Thanks again for your informative replies! As far as my spelling mistakes, I can no longer take the blame! It was Bandit's fault..... He typed what I dictated to him! Lance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INU Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 INU, I don't think it's fair to assume that it was the woman's dog who was growling and that it was on a leash because it has problems. It might have been on leash because she was new to the beach - or because, no matter what "most people" do, the rules say to keep dogs on leash. We don't know. So we cannot assume that this was an aggressive dog that needed restraint. I didn't 'assume' the other dog was growling, I was only 'guessing' which is the best we can do when discussing on the Internet. Just wanted to clarify. My guess was that Bandit is infact a friendly dog but the other dog wasn't... and it didn't want Bandit in his space so it growled or send signals which Bandit reacted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OffTopic Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 It was Bandit's fault..... He typed what I dictated to him! I knew he looked like a smart doggie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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