horse trainers, now dog trainers

[Lenajo]

Wendy V started it...so I'm going to run with it.

 

With puppies...like colts they need good basics from the start. You can't raise a colt as a brat and expect to survive riding it later. The attitude of caution, the "you don't want to see that later"....

 

Sack out a colt...socialize a puppy. What their minds meet young they will accept far more quickly, and for life, than later efforts.

 

With young dogs....like yearlings they need structure and training, but they also need to be colts. They need to learn the rules from others of their species. They need to have a daily opportunity to kick up their heels and work out the kinks. But not all day, and not to the detriment of their bodies or minds. All work and no play makes a dull boy...all play and no work makes a jerk!

 

With dogs in training....like horses they can only develop as fast as their minds and bodies will alive. Force breeds fear and resentment, and physical injury.

 

Lunging horses on a line or in a round pen - where you need to be to make movement stop and start, establishing proper space between you and the horse. Exactly the same as starting a pup on sheep.

 

Work will teach a colt/dog more than your drills will anyday. Make the training part of the work..make the training make sense!

 

Never let them get away with behavior at home that you wouldn't allow in public.

 

When you put pressure on an animals its not the amount of pressure that causes the problem usually - it's the lack of a place to get away from it. Give the dog/colt room to be right!

[juliepoudrier]

I guess if I had to say anything in particular it would be the understanding that you'll really not succeed by trying to force it to happen. With a horse, it's more a practical thing--I'm not big enough to actually *make* a horse do something, so I have to get inside its mind and figure out how to get it to do what I want. That is, I have to figure out a way to communicate that the horse understands (other than brute force). Although dogs are smaller than horses, I think the same principle applies to dogs. If things aren't going right, you need to figure out how to communicate to the dog what you really want.

 

Another thing, for me at least, is that years of showing have really helped in the nerves department when it comes to dog trialing. Not training skill per se, but I think it does make a difference. All the upset stomachs, etc., that folks get at trials, well, I did that years ago at horse shows and don't need to do it anymore!

 

One thing I took away from all my years with horses was a love of working with the greenies. I feel the same way about young dogs too.

 

J.

[Lenajo]

All the upset stomachs, etc., that folks get at trials, well, I did that years ago at horse shows and don't need to do it anymore!

 

too true!

 

I may stand at the post and yell a bit, or go get a dog.....but that dog isn't going to land on me when it takes the jump wrong.

 

You also can't appreciate how *easy* it is to travel with multiple dogs to events until you've hauled 2 horses, stabled them in the middle of the night, remember/arranged all their gear, and gotten them happy and fed...THEN gone to find a hotel. And worried all night because they were miles away.

 

It's so much nicer in that hotel with the wee doggie horses on the foot of the bed.

 

I have sometimes though wished I could sit on a dog I could straighten out that bend on the outrun if I could get my leg on it

[Wendy V]

I have sometimes though wished I could sit on a dog I could straighten out that bend on the outrun if I could get my leg on it

 

Bahhwawah! That painted quite the picture!

[Chesney's Girl]

Pretty much what was said above. (Yes there are times when I wish I could "get my leg on Chesney" as he comes in tight at the top

 

Another thing that I think has helped me make the transition (I am still so very new to dogs working stock, its only been 2 years) to working my dog was the fact that you can read they "prey" mentality better. I think it makes you a better problem solver and more away of things that might worry the sheep (or horse) and you can anticipate things faster. I really only noticed that I do this when I was at Jack Knox's clinic in December. I would stand next to him watching someone work their dog and he stands there commentating quietly to himself and I remember thinking.. Duh. It happened because the person wouldn't watch their sheep. I guess I just watch the sheep response more so or I am more aware of it because of working with horses.

[Lenajo]

Bahhwawah! That painted quite the picture!

 

yeah, well... somebody pmed me and said "does that mean you just need to kick the dog?"

[Lenajo]

I think dealing with spooky horses does somewhat prepare you for the mentality of sheep.

 

Wendy

 

Pretty much what was said above. (Yes there are times when I wish I could "get my leg on Chesney" as he comes in tight at the top

 

Another thing that I think has helped me make the transition (I am still so very new to dogs working stock, its only been 2 years) to working my dog was the fact that you can read they "prey" mentality better. I think it makes you a better problem solver and more away of things that might worry the sheep (or horse) and you can anticipate things faster. I really only noticed that I do this when I was at Jack Knox's clinic in December. I would stand next to him watching someone work their dog and he stands there commentating quietly to himself and I remember thinking.. Duh. It happened because the person wouldn't watch their sheep. I guess I just watch the sheep response more so or I am more aware of it because of working with horses.

[Chesney's Girl]

yeah, well... somebody pmed me and said "does that mean you just need to kick the dog?"

 

[Burnandreturn]

horse trainers, now dog trainers........

 

Do you mean professional horse trainers or by horse trainers are you referring to horse people in general?

[Chesney's Girl]

I think its referred to people who have owned/trained worked with either their own horses or other peoples. I know I am not a professional horse trainer but grew up with horses and there is a lot of correlation to working with/training horses and dogs on stock.

[G. Festerling]

All of my skills. And some of the stuff I have learned from the dogs has made the transition to the horses!

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I know it sure has helped me. When I was younger we had tons of animals and I used to train our parrots to do tricks, and ride the steers with a halter and train our horses to be trail horses.

 

Pressure on and off....

 

I tell my new students this "Imagine you are dating and the guy gets too close, you poke him with your finger in his ribcage until he is at the distance you are ok with....then you take out your finger from his rib cage"

 

"Yes" they nod as well as the guys (being in the receiving end)

 

Then I tell them, now put the pressure on the dog until he/she is at where you want and remove your finger

 

*THE LIGHTBULB GOES ON"

 

 

Diane~

[GOOSEDOGS]

Diane, I'll have to tell that to my teenage daughter

[Burnandreturn]

“When you put pressure on an animals its not the amount of pressure that causes the problem usually - it's the lack of a place to get away from it. Give the dog/colt room to be right!”

 

I would say it’s not the lack of a place to get away from it( meaning pressure)but a lack of knowing how to get the pressure off that causes problems. First a cue is given and then pressure applied to provide the incentive to execute the cue. The horse/dog needs to have the knowledge and confidence that if it finds the place the pressure is taken off, then it can concentrate on finding the place, not just focus on the pressure. Just enough pressure that they want it to stop but not so much that they can not think of anything but the pressure. A horse working a cow is a good example and easy to understand. The cow is the place to go to for the horse. The cow is providing the cue actually. The horse should focus on the cow. The rider might have to put pressure on the horse to hurry up and get to the right place on the cow. The horse should not be focused on the rider but on the cow but taking direction from the rider. Being in the right place on the cow takes the pressure off. Hopefully the horse has enough “cow” in it to want to work the cow.

 

So back to the original question. People that have worked horses and have worked at truly understanding what is really going on, most likely have developed their analytical skills. People that have worked horses on cows have to do this in “real time”. The cows don’t wait for you to school your horse. No time out given to discuss with the horse. The easiest way I know to explain this concept of a place to go is this. I take a person that is standing next to me, they are my “horse”. I make a three foot circle in the dirt with my boot. I have a short little whip. I look at the circle on the ground and then use the whip to lightly tap the person on the legs or back to move in the direction of the circle. When they go in the circle I stop the tapping with the whip. Then I take them by the arm and lead them out of the circle a short ways. Then I look at the circle and use the whip to get them to move their feet until they go back into the circle. This is showing them there is a place to go. They should look at me and notice me look at the circle. I don’t want them to just move away from the whip, I want them to see me look at the circle and then I come quite quickly and with more energy with the whip. Not to hurt them but enough that they want me to stop. They might laugh and think it is funny but I stay quiet and increase my pressure and they realize they better get in the circle. After a couple of times when I look at the circle they get real quick at getting in the circle. I want them to notice the thing that happens just before the thing they don’t want to have happen happens! Or I want them to notice the thing that happens just before the thing they want to have happen happens! Without the circle they can only just move away from the pressure but don’t know where to go. Give them a place to go. Dog on sheep is exactly the same. The horse needs to notice the cow getting ready to do something and either stop it from doing it or maybe get in the position to encourage it to do more of what it was getting ready to do. It is a mental focus, not just moving away from pressure. The pressure might be physical or mental in the case of a horse/dog/sheep or cow. Set it up and let it happen not make it happen. My family uses this technique on me all the time! She is looking at the sink, I think I want to go wash the dishes. Bye!

 

If this post is too long, tell me, I don’t know much about forums.