kaos Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 My mystery mutt Kaos (we think BC x ? the trainer thought BC x Kelpie, could be BC x lab, BC x ACD...meh) has a natural outrun, flanks beatifully, finds the balance point etc... on dogs. I had some friends who were stock dog knowledgeable that were fairly impressed with her. They suggested bringing her to stock to see if it played out. Well she was 6 at that point and had been heavily pet-ified by me NOT to herd dogs or anything so when we went she ate poop, played with the shadows on the ground (OCD issues) and basically acted like a goof. The trainer was very kind and said that I shouldn't waste our time by trying anymore and to just enjoy her, which I do. I know nothing of stock work except that if its not stock how can you presume to know what the dog WILL do on stock? Wouldn't it be like saying "Wow, look at that kid direct that bumpercar... betcha he'll be a formula one driver !" Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I agree but when I've seen working bred dogs playing with non working bred dogs, there is always a huge difference in their movement and manner (when isn't there?). I don't believe it tells you if the dog has what it takes or not, just that something more is there Great, then we're all on the same page. How ever, when you make a statement like "I agree," that you cant tell anything about the abilities of a working dog by ball chasing, or playing with another dog, then go on to say that "just some thing more is there," it tends to make a person think that you are conradicting yourself. The point I was making, was that it really doesnt matter what they do, until they do it on stock. Robin, Yep for me too, the last incident of a dog not paying attention and running into something, cost me 800.00 bucks to fix! She was trying to do both, work other dogs, and sheep, on the wrong side of the fence! Expensive lesson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbernard2424 Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 yes. It's unfortunatley a side effect of working a lot of places, on a lot of different, often difficult, stock. I try to prevent it but haven't managed too keep my own head free of tree branches long enough to be a credible point to my dogs. I find work injuries a frustrating side effect and I try my best to prevent them....play injuries just make me mad at all involved! <sigh> I was hoping that maybe it only occurred when herding other dogs. I'm afraid one of Gel's soon-to-occur injuries is going to be stepping on his tongue and ripping it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Oh yea, forgot about running into things. Have you ever seen a dog run into something while actually working stock? Yes. My bitch Bess ran into a 3-foot DBH Oak Tree while we were herding fallow deer at Belle Isle. A few years later she impaled herself on a fallen tree branch while getting sheep out of a brushy fenceline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 .....but when I've seen working bred dogs playing with non working bred dogs, there is always a huge difference in their movement and manner .....This could simply be because these dogs are from different breeds, despite what the conformation standard implies. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Wouldn't it be like saying "Wow, look at that kid direct that bumpercar... betcha he'll be a formula one driver !" Sara Good one! The most stylish dog I ever had (on other dogs) was also the most useless on stock. And I mean USELESS. Sure looked pretty "working" at the park, though. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 The point is that you can't tell what they are worth as working dogs from the phsyical shell or movement, period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItsADogsLyfe Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 for what its worth... My best (most trained) dog is a dog herding addict. He'll be 8 tomorrow and i've never been able to knock it out of him. He will not play with balls, frisbees or fetch anything. He will however, play with toys by himself. Throwing them in the air while running, does somersaults. This same dog has a bad habit of not watching where he's going on an outrun he is so fixated on his sheep that he has fallen over ditches etc and gone head over heels more times than I want to count. He just gets up and keeps going. A couple times I was just ready to correct him for cutting in and he went end over end..when he got up he bent out on his own..LOL I couldn't have corrected him better than he did on his own. My best ball fetching, frisbee catching dog is my 2nd best working dog. He is obsessed with fetching and chasing the ball/frisbee and if nobody is there to throw/kick it for him he will do it for himself. He is constantly pushing his ball around the yard. My other two do not dog herd nor do they fetch anything. They have their own quirky behavior and are ok workers. I don't think how a dog plays is any indication of how well that dog will work or even if it will work at all. JMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I agree, though i find it a really hard behavior to fix in my dogs. Billy is driving me nuts right now working Moss when we go on walks. I may just start him even though he's only 6 months old just to show him the difference. Is starting them early something you would advise as a general "thing to try" with dog herders? Jett is a Fly-working fiend. I know this is not the best habit for her to get into and am careful to enforce recalls frequently to make sure she's still listening to me and not totally fixated on Fly (and she's doing well with those) but with my living situation it is nearly impossible to exercise all three dogs adequately without exercising them together a lot of the time. Solo chases balls, Fly works Solo, and Jett works Fly. Jett and Fly look like something out of a John Woo "gun fu" movie scene a lot of the time, both pointed at each other, locked and loaded (Google "Chow Yun Fat" and "John Woo" if you don't know what I'm talking about): (sorry, no photos of Jett and Fly in action as of yet) Although I know it is no indication of how talented or useful she will actually be on stock, I still find it striking how stereotyped the behavior of a working-bred dog is even at less than four months of age (Jett was stalking, heading, and eying Fly when she was only 9 weeks old) when there is movement to be controlled. I think the behavior of a dog around frisbees or balls is indicative of absolutely nothing and have seen some very stylish hounds and toy dogs when a ball is there to be chased. But I have ONLY ever seen other Border Collies -- and I mean real Border Collies -- work dogs the way Fly and Jett do. Although I don't think they are actually "herding" the other dogs (Solo does not respond to Fly's pressure, and yet she pantomimes all the movements despite the fact that she is not actually controlling him) I do think the working behaviors for which they are selected affect the way they respond to movement both on and off stock. Jett is keenly interested in birds, hasn't seen stock yet (well, she did see some goats at a Christmas tree farm when she was very small but mostly they just freaked her out), isn't interested in chasing bikes, skateboards, or cars (whew). She'll be four months old Valentine's Day weekend. I will admit that I am very curious to see what she does her first time around sheep and have wondered if I should show her some soon before she gets the idea that only dogs are there for working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I just teach them to lie down and take turns fetching. When I was really trying Frisbee we worked up to several being sent together and everybody had their own "side" of me to catch from. Frisbee...is boring btw I didn't stick with it long when someone wasn't helping me stay motivated. My throwing genetics are poor and I would rather not do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 to answer the other part of your question...yes, I do think it helps to show them what is "right" to herd oaccassionally so they get an outlet for that in their head. Occassionally only - as she is too young to start (and I know you know that) I've seen other herding breeds, and some gun dogs "herd" each other like BCs do. Some of the working breeds will as well, but they really do seem to have a quick leap between control and prey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Is starting them early something you would advise as a general "thing to try" with dog herders? Not necessarily. The most intense, focused dog herder i've ever owned would look a lot like Billy to anyone else when with the dogs. Both she and he show(ed) a lot of eye and cast on other dogs. She no longer lives with me because she never would work sheep and was scared of them, despite no bad experiences with them while growing up. He, on the other hand, is showing intense focus and desire when he does work sheep (no pressure from me of course) and there's just something about him that feels different to me. She was just having a good time and playing where he seems to be craving work of some kind. Hard to explain and seriously, they'd have looked just the same to anyone else watching them flying around and eying the other dogs. As usual, the answer is "depends on the dog" (and maybe the trainer). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I will admit that I am very curious to see what she does her first time around sheep and have wondered if I should show her some soon before she gets the idea that only dogs are there for working. I'm requesting video of the first sheep introduction! Whenever that may be... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sluj Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I'm requesting video of the first sheep introduction! Whenever that may be... I second that! And maybe one of the Solo-system orbits, too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I'm requesting video of the first sheep introduction! Whenever that may be... Of Jett (who I'll second a request for . . . lol) or just any dogs first introduction to sheep? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Yes, just recently, Lucy ran into the set out dog and did a complete 360 with her back legs fully extended. She was fine, but I was a bit shaken up Oh yea, forgot about running into things. Have you ever seen a dog run into something while actually working stock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Of Jett (who I'll second a request for . . . lol) or just any dogs first introduction to sheep? I meant Jett, but if you've got some good video, I'd love to see that, too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Solo chases balls, Fly works Solo, and Jett works Fly. A friend of mine has several dogs ... and her dogs will line up like this when there is a ball around. She feels they line up according to their order in the pack. Melanie, seeing the order of your dogs, I'm now wondering if there isn't some truth to it. Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Awe shoot, now yer gonna make me have to go out and throw a ball just to see if there is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 She feels they line up according to their order in the pack. ... I'm now wondering if there isn't some truth to it. Nah .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 She feels they line up according to their order in the pack. Mine do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Mine just all lined up next to each other, side by side and made a semi circle around me. Oh, dogs said thanks btw for making me get out and throw the ball. With ewes lambing, and no work, they needed and appreciated the run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItsADogsLyfe Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 So if they line up according to "status" which is the top dog? The one with the ball or the one first in line behind the one with the ball? Seth views himself as top dog and Reign views himself under the toy poodle. Reign is the one with the ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kate40541 Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 Mine lined up according to status too. Suzanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 Mine line up in the order they were acquired -- Solo is the only one that is actually obsessed with the ball, and he also has the closest relationship with me, so he totally tunes out the other dogs and wouldn't work them regardless of what they were doing. (For the record he's never worked another dog -- chased, yes, made the moves around, no.) I suspect that when Jett matures she will have higher status than Fly. Fly was born to be a _________ banana (second, third, fourth, whatever) and lives to orbit around someone else, be that a person, dog, or amoeba. I always wonder what she would be like as an only dog. I kinda think she'd be lost. If she were a wolf in a pack, she'd be the one who always gets left behind to babysit the pups and she'd be totally cool with that. I don't think Jett will ever try working Solo -- she respects him too much for that. She also seems to realize that he's a few cards short and that it is important not to get on his bad side. Fly can get unfortunately forgetful about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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