"Barbie Colles Can Herd, Really!"

[Flamincomet]

http://www.blogcatalog.com/post/2824ffe8fe...ca214f6f9645123

 

I realize that this is a little old, but I just saw it tonight, and was wondering what your thoughts are on it.

 

Autumn

[Laurae]

Ugh...not this guy again...

[Katelynn & Gang]

Someone totally on the fence just because he cannot be top in neither game, herding nor conformation, with his dogs. So long as he is on the fence, he feels he is safe in breeding his everyday pet Border Collies. Then no one can slam him around for doing neither, proving the dogs on the trial field nor in the ring, as he can just claim he disagrees with both sides of the Border Collie War. Jack of all trades, master of none.

 

And that is what I think of him.

 

By the way, the dog he preaches about is indeed from ABCA working lines, just AKC registered and was conformationally shown to its Championship. Thank you very much.

 

Katelynn

[Dixie_Girl]

Just as there are "common intelligent" parents that will have a "genius" kid, or vice versa, there is no reason not to think that a dog can be purty and work. And that a dog bred for show, could get enough of the right genes in just the right order, to do this. I would want to know what this dogs litter mates could accomplish, it's parents, it's offspring. You can't just "hit the lottery" with one dog out of 1,000's and say, "see, we told you they can herd!". It's like the little boy playing at batting practice by his self, throwing the ball up, then swinging the bat to hit it. After the 3rd "strike", he walked away saying, I am the greatest, that is a fact, but even I didn't know, I could pitch like that.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

There's a sheltie that has won a USBCHA trial, also. I think the vast significance we can draw from this is that the USBCHA trial system is a great example of a truly OPEN competition, where given enough time, "Every dog can have its day."

 

Unlike, say, the Eukanuba show where you must have a purebred dog registered with the AKC, that looks exactly right, not to mention the fact that you have to know, or get noticed by the right people.

 

But pre-eminence in the USBCHA system occurs when a dog starts showing excellence over time, not by the dogs (and handlers) it beats on any one day, but by the different stock and fields on which he proves his worth, over and over. True depth of breeding is shown in the face of adversity faced in many different trials. Bev Lambert's Bill, for instance, mentioned in this article, is held in such high regard, not because he's won the National Finals (he hasn't) or any particular one trial that he has won. He is esteemed because he's a consistent performer in a variety of working situations.

 

As to the article, I don't know the dog, but if it's indeed from ABCA working lines, then it doesn't fit my definition of a Barbie Collie. I wish Colin were around to back me up here, but I believe the original sense was a dog whose genetics were pretty much out of lines dedicated to excellence in the breed ring.

 

I love the fact that this guy uses the term "sheeple." I assume to try to needle us in the same way the term "Barbie" aggravates them? I am proud that sheep and other livestock comprise the focus of what I consider important about the Border Collie. If it weren't for my carefully bred dog, I'd have had dead lambs and one dead ewe, twice last week.

 

Once when a "granny" ewe tried to steal her daughter's lambs, Cord split Granny off and held her while I transported the new mother and her lambs to safety. The other time a ewe lambed when it was pouring down rain with temps near freezing (right out in it, of course). Normally I can put lambs in their harness and carry them along and the ewe will follow, but the rain seemed to be making it hard for her to smell them - I had to use Cord to move her along with us to the barn. Finally, when Granny lambed she was having trouble, but of course after pushing for an hour she was too tired to lamb, but not to tired to run from me with half a lamb sticking out of her! Cord distracted her so I could catch her and get the hoof that was laying back, out where it belonged.

 

If I want another dog like that, I will not go looking for a breeder who "does it all!" with dogs that "can herd!" I want a breeder who breeds only with stock working ability in mind, who knows what it is to walk in the pouring freezing rain with a soggy newborn lamb, praying desperately that her dog can hold pressure and get that ewe where it's warm and dry (thank you Robin for your help with Cord on this!).

[Laurae]

[sorry, changed my mind]

[juliepoudrier]

My thoughts are the same as I said in the conformation thread. If you look at the pedigree information the author posted, you will see that the dam of the dog in question is strictly working bred (mostly ISDS bloodlines) while the sire seems to be strictly show bred. So although the author states that Harley is a product of two barbie collies, he is in fact incorrect. I'm not surprised that a dog who has one parent that is a product of a long line of working-bred dogs might be able to work to a high standard. If I wanted to stack the deck in my favor when choosing a pup for work, I certainly wouldn't go straight to such a breeding, but you'd have a better chance of getting a dog who can work at that level when one parent is working bred (and putting a conformation title on a working-bred dog doesn't suddenly make that dog show bred) than if you were choosing a pup from two parents who had pedigrees that more closely matched the sire's in this case (i.e., were two truly show bred dogs).

 

Good for the person who trials that dog that she's able to do well with it, but for anyone to say the dog is show bred is simply misleading. It's not.

 

J.

[sea4th]

Take it all with a grain of salt. The guy is a jerk. What he knows about border collies isn't even a drop in the bucket compared to what many on these boards know through work and experience -- and not even as much as those who choose conformation -- it's just that he thinks he does.

 

He likes to hear himself talk -- and he is actually intelligent and articulate, but too full of himself to be taken seriously. BUT, he will soon be proving everyone wrong. He'll be breeding his conformation bred bitch to his working bred male just to prove everyone wrong --- translate that as "prove himself right, once again".

 

A backyard breeder with a higher than average IQ. You know what that means. A better way to articulate the justification of more mediocre dogs -- ego inflaters, if you will.

 

The posts before mine are much more articulate than this one, but someone needs to say the author of the article is nothing more than a legend in his own mind.

[Laurae]

Take it all with a grain of salt. The guy is a jerk. What he knows about border collies isn't even a drop in the bucket compared to what many on these boards know through work and experience -- and not even as much as those who choose conformation -- it's just that he thinks he does.

 

Thanks Vicki--you said this much better than I did (before I deleted my own attempt above).

[juliepoudrier]

He'll be breeding his conformation bred bitch to his working bred male just to prove everyone wrong --- translate that as "prove himself right, once again".

I don't see how this proves anything. If he wants to prove that barbie collies can herd, then he needs to breed two barbie collies together (i.e., show-bred to show-bred) and then prove them on the trial field. I think his choice in breeding proves a whole lot--that is, that even he realizes he might not get a successful working dog by breeding show-bred to show-bred so instead has to make sure one of the breeding pair is working bred. I wonder if he's hoping his readers are too stupid to figure it out.

 

J.

[jdarling]

He'll be breeding his conformation bred bitch to his working bred male just to prove everyone wrong ...

 

Have no fear. It already happened. And due to his wonderful attitude, how well he's proven his jack-of-all-trades dogs (not!), and, of course, his Standford education, he couldn't sell all four of them and had to advertise a couple of them on one of the very high volume puppy sites -- you know, because the breeding was so special.

 

Let's assume the dog in question really was a Barbie Collie (and because Christopher's a Stanford guy and all, but must be right...) (even though it's obvious from the pedigrees that he posted that only one side comes from show lines...) (but don't tell Christopher ... he might remind you that you're uneducated), one dog is the exception ... not the rule. And I'll bet the reason XXXXXXXXX didn't want her named dragged through this is because of who would be doing the dragging.

 

But what do I know?

[stockdogranch]

I know this dog, and the handler. This dog was bought both before this handler knew better, and while there was still good breeding on the one side. She went to Suzy for lessons, and they got lucky. So, yes, while this is real, look at the percentages. This is ONE out of HOW MANY? I've had lots of people bring their conformation or sport bred (or for that matter, just poorly bred from "working lines" ) "BCs" out for a first look at stock or lessons over the years (I'm talking like several hundred of them). How many are capable of competing consistently enough to make it to the Finals?

 

A

 

That's a rhetorical question...

[Liz P]

I still want to see a dog from 100% Aussie Barbie Collie lines do well. The dog in question had a fair ammount of working breeding behind it.

[kelpiegirl]

Where is the pedigree behind this dog? PM if you wish, but I can't find it...

[Liz P]

Where is the pedigree behind this dog? PM if you wish, but I can't find it...

 

Go look in the comments section under the post, he has the pedigrees of the parents listed in a reply.

[Katelynn & Gang]

It already happened. And due to his wonderful attitude, how well he's proven his jack-of-all-trades dogs (not!), and, of course, his Standford education, he couldn't sell all four of them and had to advertise a couple of them on one of the very high volume puppy sites -- you know, because the breeding was so special.

 

Ahh I see. Funny how karma works.

[Katelynn & Gang]

Dam of dog: http://www.bordercolliesociety.com/images/...2freeze_ped.png

 

Sire of dog: http://www.jandemellobordercollie.com/Jakepedigree.htm

 

The Dam is clearly working bred and anyone with any knowledge of a pedigree within this breed could see that. The Sire is more show bred but not overly show bred, there are a few working bred dogs within the five generations of pedigree shown.

 

Sometimes you just get lucky. I'd still like to see a real fully bred Barbie place at Nationals.

[Eileen Stein]

Just a few comments, Autumn.

 

I have deleted the name of this dog's owner from an earlier post. Just because the blogger was not willing to honor her request not to have her name used in this fashion doesn't mean that I won't honor it.

 

As has been noted, the dam of this dog was bred by a working dog breeder, and there is nothing but working dogs in her pedigree -- no show dogs. She was bought by an AKC person, who showed her to her championship and bred this dog.

 

I posted the reason why the ABCA de-registers show Border Collies in another thread (scroll down to portion highlighted in green). As noted there, a dog does not lose its abilities by virtue of being named a champion, nor are all those abilities entirely lost in the next generation. The change can be gradual, and there can even be an occasional throwback later on, but breeding for show and/or not breeding for working ability inevitably leads to loss of working ability in the lines so bred. One cross-bred (work x obedience/show/work) dog who does well in sheepdog trials does not rebut the inexorable laws of genetics.

 

The dog in question was never registered with the ABCA. As a conformation champion, she is ineligible for registration. But the blogger is in error (as he so often is) in saying that "his line will never be allowed in the ABCA genepool, regardless of their merit." In fact, any of her offspring (it's a she, not a he) are eligible to be registered on merit if they do not continue on the show road and become conformation champions, and if they can meet the rigorous standards for ROM. And of course other descendants of the working line that produced her dam remain in the ABCA genepool.

 

The blogger is not a reliable source when it comes to border collies, because he has little knowledge or experience with the breed. Perhaps as he gains more knowledge and experience, that will change, but his certainty that no one could possibly know more than he does will be a hindrance.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Even the show side has some good lines (line bred to a dog who is from a cross between Bosworth Coon and ##Ken - a popular choice for obedience breeders as well) - I would be cautiously optimistic about such a dog's future. Like any other dog with an interesting pedigree, I'd want to see it in numerous situations, and knowing the backround (I had a similarly bred dog), I know what I'd look for in terms of weaknesses.

 

So, this is not even the exception which proves the pudding. This dog merely falls in line with our contention that breeding matters. Continued breeding away from working ability in this line would soon produce more duds than winners - and we are confident of this position because we've seen it happen over and over. Every sport kennel, it seems, tries this - even back to the obedience kennels of the pre-AKC era, who were much more hand-in-glove with the working world. I don't know of a single one of those old obedience kennels of the old days, which still produces reliable working dogs. Honestly, they even seem a little light on the sound performance dogs these days.

 

This just isn't a breed that can be maintained in a state of sound mind and body, without a focused purpose. The serious conformation people have turned their breed into reasonably sound Barbie Collies. The working breeders of course have been doing this for the history of the breed and continue to do so - case in point, the Templeton lines and Aled Owen's dogs which are just two well-known examples of generations of high quality being maintained through simply focusing on working ability alone.

[mjk05]

I don't find it that surprising at all. Yes, the dog seems to bred with "multitasking" in mind, by a breeder catering mostly for sports (agility, flyball, herding) with some conformation on the side (with dogs that might do OK) and incorporating some working-bred dogs every so often- rather than from a purely conformation standpoint.

 

The same thing has been increasingly popular over here in both kelpies and (more recently) border collies- usually breeders from a conformation background getting involved in herding as a sport +/- other dog sports, and then getting some dual registered working-bred dogs to incorporate into their breeding program to produce "dogs that can do it all".

 

It's understandable that some of these dogs will work pretty well, a few may even be excellent- usually those with a higher proportion of working-bred background, bred by those breeders who focus more on the sheepdog side of their kennel than the showdog side. I actually know a couple of purely showbred dogs that can work sheep (wouldn't win a trial, but could compete and can do some farm work), so it doesn't seem shocking that a dog with mixed breeding can turn out really well. I think the blog in question makes some unreasonable generalisations about the working ability of show-bred dogs based on one mixed-breeding dog.

 

This is really an example of why I think mixed show-working lines and dual registration is more of a problem for working breeds than just the show lines alone. It blurs the distinction between show-bred and working-bred and makes it harder for people to know what they are looking at or being sold.

 

(no abusive PMs or emails on this please )

[C Crocker]

Just a few comments, Autumn.

 

I have deleted the name of this dog's owner from an earlier post. Just because the blogger was not willing to honor her request not to have her name used in this fashion doesn't mean that I won't honor it.

 

As has been noted, the dam of this dog was bred by a working dog breeder, and there is nothing but working dogs in her pedigree -- no show dogs. She was bought by an AKC person, who showed her to her championship and bred this dog.

 

I posted the reason why the ABCA de-registers show Border Collies in another thread (scroll down to portion highlighted in green). As noted there, a dog does not lose its abilities by virtue of being named a champion, nor are all those abilities entirely lost in the next generation. The change can be gradual, and there can even be an occasional throwback later on, but breeding for show and/or not breeding for working ability inevitably leads to loss of working ability in the lines so bred. One cross-bred (work x obedience/show/work) dog who does well in sheepdog trials does not rebut the inexorable laws of genetics.

 

The dog in question was never registered with the ABCA. As a conformation champion, she is ineligible for registration. But the blogger is in error (as he so often is) in saying that "his line will never be allowed in the ABCA genepool, regardless of their merit." In fact, any of her offspring (it's a she, not a he) are eligible to be registered on merit if they do not continue on the show road and become conformation champions, and if they can meet the rigorous standards for ROM. And of course other descendants of the working line that produced her dam remain in the ABCA genepool.

 

The blogger is not a reliable source when it comes to border collies, because he has little knowledge or experience with the breed. Perhaps as he gains more knowledge and experience, that will change, but his certainty that no one could possibly know more than he does will be a hindrance.

 

 

 

Please let me add my take on this, unrequested by this dog's owner. I see this dog on an almost daily basis. In fact I share ownership of my sheep which live at my ranch with this person. The bitch ( spayed for some time) is nine years old. The owner purchsed her for her daughter as a pup, wanting a dog for her daughter to take part in some activity with hopefully. She was shown in conformation because that is what the plan was when she was purchased. The contract said these pups had to be "introduced" to stock, so she did and got interested in learning more. She started in AKC/AHBA events and then moved on, wanting to learn ISDS style of trailing. The dog was trained to an ISDS level by Suzy Applegate, the owner religiously took lessons, and went from Novice/Novice to Open with her. She competed in the 06 Nationals with her and did a fine job, enough to cause Tommy and Flo Wilson and Bev Lambert to compliment her run. ( She did make the semi-finals with her other dog, also a 9 year old, but a male ABCA registered dog bred and trained by Suzy Applegate).

 

This owner has applied herself and puts in her time to better her handling skills. She is driven to better herself and her dogs, comes out rain or shine to work sheep and presently owns three other border collies, all from Suzy Applegate's breeding. She regularly places in the tough Open trials here on the West Coast. This is a nice biddable dog .

 

I can also tell you that when the owner saw this man's blog she has asked him through email and telephone conversations to please leave her dog and her out of his crusade. Apparently he will not heed her wishes.

 

So when discussing this subject, one should separate the author from the subject when passing judgement.

 

Carolyn

[kelpiegirl]

Thanks Carolyn. Tell this woman that this blogger is not worth her time, and that, her achievements with her dog are HERS and hers alone- he is clearly hanging on her coat tails- he needs to do with his dogs, what she has done with hers, and stop glomming onto other's achievements.

 

 

Please let me add my take on this, unrequested by this dog's owner. I see this dog on an almost daily basis. In fact I share ownership of my sheep which live at my ranch with this person. The bitch ( spayed for some time) is nine years old. The owner purchsed her for her daughter as a pup, wanting a dog for her daughter to take part in some activity with hopefully. She was shown in conformation because that is what the plan was when she was purchased. The contract said these pups had to be "introduced" to stock, so she did and got interested in learning more. She started in AKC/AHBA events and then moved on, wanting to learn ISDS style of trailing. The dog was trained to an ISDS level by Suzy Applegate, the owner religiously took lessons, and went from Novice/Novice to Open with her. She competed in the 06 Nationals with her and did a fine job, enough to cause Tommy and Flo Wilson and Bev Lambert to compliment her run. ( She did make the semi-finals with her other dog, also a 9 year old, but a male ABCA registered dog bred and trained by Suzy Applegate).

 

This owner has applied herself and puts in her time to better her handling skills. She is driven to better herself and her dogs, comes out rain or shine to work sheep and presently owns three other border collies, all from Suzy Applegate's breeding. She regularly places in the tough Open trials here on the West Coast. This is a nice biddable dog .

 

I can also tell you that when the owner saw this man's blog she has asked him through email and telephone conversations to please leave her dog and her out of his crusade. Apparently he will not heed her wishes.

 

So when discussing this subject, one should separate the author from the subject when passing judgement.

 

Carolyn

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

She was shown in conformation because that is what the plan was when she was purchased. The contract said these pups had to be "introduced" to stock, so she did and got interested in learning more. She started in AKC/AHBA events and then moved on, wanting to learn ISDS style of trailing. The dog was trained to an ISDS level by Suzy Applegate, the owner religiously took lessons, and went from Novice/Novice to Open with her. She competed in the 06 Nationals with her and did a fine job, enough to cause Tommy and Flo Wilson and Bev Lambert to compliment her run.

 

That is a real inspiration. I'd love to meet her sometime. Thanks for sharing that, Carolyn.

[btrent]

Not much more to say here, except that I'm glad Carolyn spoke up because she is the one best suited to respond. After seeing that this thread had popped back up again, I was hoping that you would, Carolyn! I know this dog-handler team too, and I can tell you that on any given day all the Open handlers would like to beat them and they very often don't. The handler in question has worked very hard at it. The dog is genuine. Nuff said.......

 

--Billy

[Patty Abel]

That is a real inspiration. I'd love to meet her sometime. Thanks for sharing that, Carolyn.

 

Isn't it true that the really classy handlers always compliment a good run.