My BC is the "fun police"

[afrancis]

Hi everyone. I am new to the list but have to say that about 15 years ago when I got my first BC, the BC-L list was a godsend to me. The information I got from everyone on that list was more informative than any book. And what could be better when you have such a complex creature as a border collie!

My dilemma now is my second bc, called Skye (Skye-dog as she is known affectionately). She is 5 1/2 and we got her from the pound at 7 weeks. She is a very competitive dog, very quick to learn, very sensitive and eager to please.

However, we call her the "fun police" because if she comes across two or more dogs playing, she will run up to them and bark, bark and bark, all the while running around them, lunging, trying to herd them apart. If she can get them to stop interacting with eachother, she's happy and stops barking. I have been either calling her back to me or using a whistle for recall and this often works, but not always. Sometimes I have to physically remove her from the dynamic and keep on our way, but if I let her go too soon at times she takes off and returns for more barking!

I consulted a trainer when she did this as a young dog but her response was, "She's a border collie -- it's what they do". At the time I accepted that and thought i was being too anal, but I'm beginning to realize that not everyone likes a crazy barking dog around them.

I've tried to keep this relatively short for obvious reasons --

I guess my question is: have any of you had this kind of behaviour and if so, how did you manage it? Is it considered "rude" dog etiquette and should I be discouraging it completely?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts...

Ailsa

[dogsofmenace]

I consulted a trainer when she did this as a young dog but her response was, "She's a border collie -- it's what they do". At the time I accepted that and thought i was being too anal, but I'm beginning to realize that not everyone likes a crazy barking dog around them.

Ailsa

 

Ugh, I just want to say that I hate the "It's just what they do." mentality from trainers. I would run away from anyone that told me that.

 

Anyway.....

I think whats happening is a calming signal in dog language. "Splitting" as they call it. It was in Turid Rugaas' book "On Talking Terms With Dogs" Its a pretty common behavior I believe. Oftentimes it happens with people getting close to one another as well. A lot of people interpret it as aggression, but I think its sort of a dogs way of preventing a fight from breaking out if they think things between two dogs is getting to rough. We also have a "fun police" dog, by the way. Honestly I don't have any suggestions for stopping this, and I don't know whether or not she should be deterred from it or not. I'd like to have an answer for that as well! But at least you can get an idea of what she's doing.

[Shetlander]

I consulted a trainer when she did this as a young dog but her response was, "She's a border collie -- it's what they do". At the time I accepted that and thought i was being too anal, but I'm beginning to realize that not everyone likes a crazy barking dog around them.

 

Your first instinct was correct and the trainer did both you and your dog a disservice to say you should tolerate the behavior. You are right that some people would not be thrilled to have a barking dog interrupting their dogs' play. I'd be one of those crabby folks.

 

If you see Skye breaking up other dogs in play, tell her no very firmly, leash her up and do not let her continue. I'm not sure what setting this is taking place in. But if you are somewhere meaning to play with Skye, take her off a ways and see if she will engage with you away from the other dogs. If she can't keep her focus on you, you can either move further to try again or simply, say "Ok, let's go then." Not sure if you're out for a walk or at a park or visiting with friends. I wouldn't want to cut short my visit if I was with friends, but I'd either keep my dog on leash or put her in the car.

 

I guess my question is: have any of you had this kind of behaviour and if so, how did you manage it? Is it considered "rude" dog etiquette and should I be discouraging it completely?

 

My BC and Lhasa are very competitive with each other. They'll sometimes do this when they see the other playing with my Sheltie. Not the barking, just jumping on the Sheltie to draw her away. I view it as controlling, resource guarding behavior and do not tolerate it when I see it. The offending dog is made to come sit or lie down by my side. I've reached a point where I don't put up with any of my dogs thinking they get to tell another what to do or where to be. At least not when I'm around. Those decisions are mine. The same would hold true with regards to how they treat dogs outside of our little pack.

[afrancis]

I think whats happening is a calming signal in dog language. "Splitting" as they call it. It was in Turid Rugaas' book "On Talking Terms With Dogs" Its a pretty common behavior I believe. Oftentimes it happens with people getting close to one another as well.

 

This is very interesting. I have seen Turid's video on calming signals and never once made the association. I think you may have something -- it's her way of controlling or diffusing the heightened activity -- splitting to most dogs is herding to border collies. Go figure!

 

Skye, like all border collies I imagine, is very visual and locks into this kind of thing from great distances. She has been known to run the length of a city block (at the walking trails, that is, not on the streets) to break up and/or join in the acitivity. Similarly, if she has been playing one on one with a dog and a third enters the picture, she will break that up too since three, after all, is a crowd.

 

One on one play is a different story; she usually has great fun with a kindred spirit. However, there have been two dogs in her life, both males, who she has been in love with and when on walks together, she shadows them and barks the whole time. They tolerate her but I often call her off so they don't end up going home with ringing in their ears.

 

Thanks for the input!

[afrancis]

I'd be one of those crabby folks.

 

I must have already met you!

 

Not sure if you're out for a walk or at a park or visiting with friends.

 

We're almost exclusively at a woodland walking park with trails and big open spaces. So she often sees this activity from a distance and takes off to join the fray. It's fairly difficult for me to get her away while I'm at a distance but I believe you're suggesting that I keep her on lead until we pass by this kind of action. I guess I hadn't discouraged this much in the past because I viewed it as Skye getting a chance to run and interact with others even though it gets very loud!

 

I've reached a point where I don't put up with any of my dogs thinking they get to tell another what to do or where to be. At least not when I'm around. Those decisions are mine. The same would hold true with regards to how they treat dogs outside of our little pack.

 

I get it. I think I just needed to know if I was allowing bad behaviour or just bc behaviour!

Thanks Shetlander.

 

Anymore opinions?

[mbc1963]

This is very interesting. I have seen Turid's video on calming signals and never once made the association.

 

Way at the verrrrrry end of the video, Turid puts two biggish dogs together and lets them play roughly. Then she unleashes a border collie, who immediately becomes the "Fun Police" and goes over to stop the play. Turid very clearly sees this as calming behavior, defusing tension before it explodes. I watched the whole video and learned a lot, then got to the end and said, "Hey, that's MY DOG too!"

 

When I first got Buddy, he wouldn't allow any dogs to play anywhere near him. And a couple times, if another dog ran to me to get loving, he'd break that up too, with snarling and nipping. (Coincidentally, a few times he was playing nicely with another dog, and suddenly went into 'attack' mode - not sure if he got pinched or nipped or what!) Before I knew to call this a "calming signal," I just thought all of this was his weird reactivity, so I worked on it like I worked on all of that - getting him leashed and far enough from the action to be comfortable, and rewarding for calm behavior. Also, a whole lot of "leave it" after he knew that command and as soon as I could tell he was wanting to go break up the playing. (I think, if I recall all my reading correctly, you've gotta get that 'leave it' in when the dog has the barest notion of maybe going to do the policing... once it's started, it's too late.) Slow desensitization until he stopped associating the play with HIS having to step in.

 

Buddy also sounds a lot like your dog - he'll play nicely with one dog, but once another one enters the picture, he simply won't play. If he knows the dogs, he'll walk away from their play. If the new one is a stranger, I leash him and move him a bit away till he feels comfortable, because he will still police them.

 

He's pretty good now with letting others play outside his little personal space bubble. Other than that, I just manage his location to let the other dogs have fun.

 

Good luck!

 

Mary

[pammyd]

Ben is kinda similar

 

He can play happily in the park with up to about 20 dogs but if some of his friends start wrestling he runs inbetween them, up on his back legs and trys to shove them appart. The owners are only worried that he will get squashed as he is so small and the other dogs dont mind him at all

Often in the park you see 2 dogs running together with Ben behind barking away like "now dont you 2 play rough"

 

He also tries to 'move' dogs that come up to me by getting between them and me and shoving them away

 

I have always put the 1st behaviour down to him being the omega member of the pack - the peacmaker

he 2nd behaviour I think is guarding me and I do not put up with that! I can pat other dogs if I want to (although it is cute because he is such a sub dog but he will stand up to monsters for me)

[Shetlander]

It's fairly difficult for me to get her away while I'm at a distance but I believe you're suggesting that I keep her on lead until we pass by this kind of action. I guess I hadn't discouraged this much in the past because I viewed it as Skye getting a chance to run and interact with others even though it gets very loud!

 

I want my dogs under voice control --- have a solid recall ---- before they're off leash, not that there are many places I can take them off lead any more. For instance, let's say she sees two dogs playing and rushes off from you. What neither of you realize is while the dogs are playing, one of them is very dog aggressive with dogs he doesn't know or dogs who look like Skye. She could be rushing right into a very bad situation and end up injured.

 

I think I just needed to know if I was allowing bad behaviour or just bc behaviour!

 

It's kinda bad bc behavior I've seen and heard about a number of BC's and Aussies who do this sort of thing. Since I haven't seen Skye in action, I can only go by what you tell me and if you are running into crabby people, then I'd say she is behaving inappropriately. In addition to working on a good recall, you can work on teaching her to focus on your or heel with distractions when you are passing dogs in play. At first this would be on leash, but eventually she may be fine off leash.

[afrancis]

Wow! I hadn't realized that I was letting my good dog do such bad things...I never wanted to be one of those dog-owners who let their dog get away with murder...Thanks for such good advice Liz...Mea culpa...

It sounds like I need to do a lot of remedial training, esp. with recall. I will now be keeping the leash at the ready to help Skye understand what's acceptable and what's not.

Is it still considered "calming" when she seems to be having so much fun? Or am I confusing fun with agitation or is it that she is having fun bullying...

I do want her to be a good member of society but I also want her to have fun...but not at the expense of other dogs`fun.

Ailsa

[Shetlander]

Wow! I hadn't realized that I was letting my good dog do such bad things...I never wanted to be one of those dog-owners who let their dog get away with murder...

 

I wouldn't say she was doing "such bad things." I'm sure she is just having fun or making herself feel better (control the chaos). It's just that some other dogs and their owners might not find it fun in return.

 

Is it still considered "calming" when she seems to be having so much fun? Or am I confusing fun with agitation or is it that she is having fun bullying...

 

I don't see the behavior as calming or necessarily bullying. Skye is doing something that comes naturally to her and that she hasn't been taught not to do, or at least to stop when told.

 

I do want her to be a good member of society but I also want her to have fun...but not at the expense of other dogs`fun.

 

You can always check with the other dogs' owners. If they're fine with the behavior and the other dogs don't mind or seem to find it fun, it might be ok, though that might be too much gray for Skye to follow (when to play like that, when not to).

 

Again, I haven't seen Skye. For all I know other people and their dogs are thrilled to see her coming. Then everything I've said would be all wet.

[afrancis]

Again, I haven't seen Skye. For all I know other people and their dogs are thrilled to see her coming. Then everything I've said would be all wet.

 

Liz,

thanks for the follow-up - I know that Skye is very responsive to my direction - she is always looking to see what I`m doing or thinking - I just need to feel confident about giving it more emphatically.

 

The other day at the park I met a woman with 3 bcs, one hers and two her parents` older dogs. We had a great conversation about being bc-owners and the special joys we have as well as challenges that we face. She was happy to see that Skye initiated playing with her pup while the other two remained aloof. She said, ``Maybe my dog will be normal and play with other dogs after all!``

 

Ailsa

[mbc1963]

For instance, let's say she sees two dogs playing and rushes off from you. What neither of you realize is while the dogs are playing, one of them is very dog aggressive with dogs he doesn't know or dogs who look like Skye. She could be rushing right into a very bad situation and end up injured.

 

Yes, and thanks Liz for pointing this out. My dog is the one who would not interpret Skye's actions correctly. Buddy would read an imminent attack, and go to "protect" himself by trying to drive off Skye or - failing at that - pin Skye to the ground. Scary to watch, for both owners! AND scary to the dog being driven off, I might say.

 

Because my dog is reactive to new dogs, I have to monitor every meeting with a strange dog very closely, and that is very difficult or even impossible when strange dogs charge us off leash. I hear the "my dog is friendly" call a lot... but it doesn't help me protect their dog from my dog's reaction, unfortunately.

 

So, for Skye's sake, I wouldn't let her go charging up to dogs she doesn't know and trying to break up their play. I'd take each situation one by one, and leash her until I was sure everything was OK.

 

Mary

[Shetlander]

She was happy to see that Skye initiated playing with her pup while the other two remained aloof. She said, ``Maybe my dog will be normal and play with other dogs after all!``

 

Quinn at 2 1/2 is still quite friendly with other dogs and will play with them, but once a ball or Frisbee comes out, that's pretty much all he has eyes for. The other adult BC's I know are the same way. Either little interest in playing with other dogs at all or like Quinn, more focused on playing with humans if he has the choice.

[afrancis]

Yes, and thanks Liz for pointing this out. My dog is the one who would not interpret Skye's actions correctly. Buddy would read an imminent attack, and go to "protect" himself by trying to drive off Skye or - failing at that - pin Skye to the ground. Scary to watch, for both owners! AND scary to the dog being driven off, I might say.

 

Thanks Mary & Liz for reminding me of this. I should know this too since my first dog, Riley, was like yours Mary, i.e. would definitely not take kindly to be charged like this. Skye has been quite lucky because for the most part she seems to know what dogs to avoid this way. Most of her interactions through this type of behaviour seems to have involved happy-go-lucky labs, retrievers and others.

 

I went to the park today (all I could muster since I'm fighting a bad cold passed on by my hubby) with Skye and put into effect your suggestions. Some funny and telling comments:

 

1. I kept an eagle eye on her and any dogs in the area; in a few cases I called her back to me when she saw dogs playing ahead she came immediately. This was great. She was pretty attentive.

 

2. It wasn't until we saw a jack russell being thrown a stick that I knew we may have met our match. I nipped it in the bud by asking her to sit, which she did, put the leash on her and then walked toward them. Of course she whimpered and pulled so we kept stopping and sitting. And repeated this even when some kind and concerned people said, "Do you ever let her off the leash?" I responded by smiling and saying that I was teaching her restraint.

 

3. When we got right up to the action (many other dogs were involved by now!) I got her to sit and stay by me and watch patiently. You wouldn't believe the sounds coming out of her. Moaning and whining and whimpering and full-blown crying. People looked very concerned And shouldn't you know it - the jr and owners continued to walk along the same trail we use. So I let them get ahead and walked with Skye close to me.

 

4. We met up with people that we had seen entering the park and they remarked on how Skye came very well when I called her, unlike their exuberant lab that seemed to be entirely deaf! Then they asked if she was a "high energy" dog. I said that I had only known bcs and that two good, long walks a day, everyday, were all she needed. They said that their dog got that on weekends and by Monday it was exhausted so didn't get out at all on that day! They relayed a story of their friends bc who wouldn't stop bringing and dropping a tennis ball at the dinner table. I said that dog needed to learn the meaning of the phrase, "Go lie down!" They didn't seem to think it could be done! Oh well...

 

And yes, my first dog Riley wasn't interested in playing at all, with other dogs or people. And Skye will not play if there is a toy involved. In fact she becomes quite possessive and this is why I have retired toys except when we're alone.

 

The training continues...

Ailsa