Now what do I do?

[Kayleegator]

In the four months I have had Kaylee, I have walked and worked with her on-leash at least several times a week. She has car issues, fixes them with her sight and would chase them given the opportunity. I have redirected, rewarded, scolded, yelled suddenly, done everything short of a full roll to break her concentration. About the best progress we've made is that she doesn't lunge anymore, and knows very well that I don't like her stalking cars. She still stares them down.

 

For months, one of her treats has been a playdate with our next door neighbor's little boxer, who is close to her in size and weight. They adore each other and tussle like littermates, a good workout for my girl any time. She begs to visit Tyson when she hears him outside (I don't indulge that). But now when she is there, she has noticed the cars passing outside the neighbor's chainlink fence. She has totally run amuck, barking hysterically and chasing for all she's worth, ignoring her friend, and modeling bad, bad behavior, not to mention ignoring recall completely for a good five minutes, in spite of the whole hot dog I was waving at her.

 

I've been working on her recall a lot, hoping to get her to a place where I can exercise her off-leash more. She comes most of the time, but given an interesting distraction like a car or another dog, she'll blow me off for as long as she feels like it. We've got a yard, but it's not big enough to really run her. There is a dog park, but it's currently snowbound. A friend has a couple of fenced acres, but there's a road with cars that runs beside the fence.

 

No more playdates, at least next door, sigh. I can try bringing Tyson into my yard, haven't done that yet. We've got board fencing, no visible cars to freak on.

 

Indoors she's more biddable/under control. I use her crate, I use the leash indoors if necessary. We play good games many times a day. I work from home, and she's got a good off button: whenever I sit down at my computer, she stretches out nearby with a chewie. Unless one of the cats walks by.

 

I confess that I've wept a bit in frustration lately. (Beginners with young pups, take note!) I've got an 8-month-old adolescent on my hands. I know we will both survive, but I could use some support.

 

How should I proceed?

[Shoofly]

Can you use your neighbor's yard without their dog in it? If so, take your dog in there, and if she locks in on a passing car, get between her and it, and fuss and yell at her and "block" her access to the car until she thinks you're nuts and quits, and even moves away from the fence. Go really over the top at first, then ease off until all you have to do is crook your little finger and she gives up on even alerting at the car.

 

This is similar to what i'd do with a dog that was "sneaking" off to work stock when i was calling it off - i'd get between him and the sheep and make it clear that working sheep is only allowed when i say so. Is there any way you could get your dog to stockwork lessons? If you have a decent trainer, you can build the tools to make the dog knock it off when you say so.

[Kayleegator]

Can you use your neighbor's yard without their dog in it? If so, take your dog in there, and if she locks in on a passing car, get between her and it, and fuss and yell at her and "block" her access to the car until she thinks you're nuts and quits, and even moves away from the fence. Go really over the top at first, then ease off until all you have to do is crook your little finger and she gives up on even alerting at the car.

 

This is similar to what i'd do with a dog that was "sneaking" off to work stock when i was calling it off - i'd get between him and the sheep and make it clear that working sheep is only allowed when i say so. Is there any way you could get your dog to stockwork lessons? If you have a decent trainer, you can build the tools to make the dog knock it off when you say so.

 

Thanks for your suggestions, Robin. I will ask the neighbors if they will keep their dog in while I have a few training sessions in their yard: they won't mind.

 

I would LOVE to get Kaylee on sheep at some point: even to an amateur's eye, she has good potential. She is pb bc, but I don't know if her parents were working dogs, she was a rescue pup. Unfortunately, the closest trainer to me that I've been able to find (Geri Byrne http://www.bcollies.com/ ) is a two-hour drive away. I've got a full-time job and would not be able to do that often enough to make it worthwhile for the dog. There are a few ranchers that are closer that have sheepdogs, but at least one I've talked to didn't formally train his dog, just 'lets him do what comes natural'. And I'm a rank beginner, have only seen a few competitions. I'll keep sniffing around Siskiyou and Shasta Counties: maybe I'll get lucky and find someone closer.

[Shoofly]

Honestly, you should go over to Geri's and give it a try - she and Ellen Skillings (at the same place) are top notch and understand these dogs. It's a long drive but give it a shot and see what your dog thinks. You could even consider putting her in with them for a little training, which is the most cost effective way to do it, honestly. I hate when i see someone look for someone closer and end up with a less talented trainer just because it's a longer drive. There might be someone decent nearer to you, but i know Geri and Ellen will steer you straight. And i bet it would help with your car chasing problem too. Even if you can't do the sheep thing now, try my suggestions, and if it's not working for you, go to Ellen and let them show you what i'm talking about so you can get it right.

[Shoofly]

weight. They adore each other and tussle like littermates, a good workout for my girl any time. She begs to visit Tyson when she hears him outside (I don't indulge that). But now when she is there, she has noticed the cars passing outside the neighbor's chainlink fence. She has totally run amuck, barking hysterically and chasing for all she's worth, ignoring her friend, and modeling bad, bad behavior, not to mention ignoring recall completely for a good five minutes, in spite of the whole hot dog I was waving at her.

 

By the way, this whole hotdog thing, forget it. When she's acting like a snot like that and ignoring you, go over, grab her collar, give her a shake and let her know you're not happy with her ignoring you. Then if she gives you her attention and will take it, you can give her the hotdog. Or just tell her she's good and not in trouble any more. She needs a correction for ignoring you since she obvious does know what a recall is.

[Journey]

I am way over the top when it comes to "cars". It's a potential life/death situation.

 

First off, why were you not proactive when she was blowing you off? Waving a hot dog in her face?

 

I would agree with Robin about borrowing the neighbors yard, then I would attach a long line to her and if she went nuts I would walk her down, walking on the line, I would have a fit and yell at her like I was nuts. I would also consider tossing a big ole glass of water on her head to break her thoughts, since she may not be thinking about "you" at all. The correction needs to be huge insofar as cars will kill her. I'm not saying beat her, don't get me wrong, but a line on her will not allow her to blow you off or get away either. I say forget the hot dog all together..no need since she's being corrected.

 

Karen

[PSmitty]

I'm in agreement with Karen and Robin. Car chasing demands a "coming to Jesus" (copyright Julie P) talk with the dog.

 

I just wanted to comment on how you said you work full time, so you wouldn't be able to go often enough to make it worth the while. I may be wrong (and Robin and others will know better), but I would still take her, even if you can only go once or twice a month. Due to my trainer's schedule, I only get in every 2-3 weeks, but I think my dog (not to mention me!) still gets plenty out of it. Oh, and she's an hour away, so it's not all that close to me, either.

 

Good luck!

[Root Beer]

Odd as this may sound, I recommend that you get ahold of the book "Control Unleashed" and read through it. The parts about over-threshold behavior could be very helpful to you in training Kaylee to ignore the cars, and to come back to you when you call.

[Lenajo]

Long line at the least. I'd let her get good and into the moment and then when she hit the end of the line I'd read her the riot act like she's never heard.

 

I actually prefer an electronic collar for this one - one of the few places I would approve of it. The best set up is somewhere behind a fence where she doesn't think you are with her. When she's screaming away from the bad mean car you want to be her savior...the one that has nothing to do with it. We want her to think that car chasing = horrible bad things

 

There is relatively nothing you can do to this dog training wise, short of outright beating her, that is as dangerous as what that car will do to her if she gets in front of it. This is life or death, not a sit stay on the start line, or a sheep herding training issue. This is not training at all really, in the sense that you are trying to teach her an alternative behavior, a better behavior, to recall...etc. You just want to extinguish this behavior, period. I wouldn't mix it up even with the recall because the next car you see may not have you there at the same time. Car chasing = bad That's all you want, and a crude tool like an ecollar is perfect for that.

 

The ideal would have been that she never got this habit. But that's water under the bridge now.

[MaryP]

I'm also not an advocate of using shock collars for basic training exercises, but for life or death situations, I say you gotta do what you gotta do. The nice thing about them is that you can operate them from a distance and the dog won't associate the correction with you. So, the correction will stick with it, even if you're not in the picture.

 

Again, I don't advocate e-collars for simple training issues, but when you absolutely have to stop a behavior for your dog's safety, then I think it's appropriate.

[madvibes]

By the way, this whole hotdog thing, forget it. When she's acting like a snot like that and ignoring you, go over, grab her collar, give her a shake and let her know you're not happy with her ignoring you. Then if she gives you her attention and will take it, you can give her the hotdog. Or just tell her she's good and not in trouble any more. She needs a correction for ignoring you since she obvious does know what a recall is.

 

Please read some books on Positive dog training instead of taking advice from those who use aversives. The 'training' advice given on this board sometimes is seriously frightening. why would anybody want to use aversive training with their border collie? talk about completely ruining your trust and relationship with your dog.

 

I agree with the previous response about Leslie McDevitt's book Control Unleashed. it's fantastic. here are some others:

 

Pat Miller, "The Power of Positive Dog Training."

 

Dr. Nicholas Dodman, "The Dog Who Loved Too Much,"

 

Karen Pryor, "Don’t Shoot the Dog: The New Art of Teaching and Training,"

 

Jean Donaldson, "Culture Clash," and "Dogs Are From Neptune."

 

Dr. Ian Dunbar, "Dog Behavior: Pet Owner's Guide to a Happy, Healthy Pet,"

 

Dr. Patricia McConnell,

(1.) "How to Be the Leader of the Pack, and Have YourDog Love You For It,"

(2.) "The Other End of the Leash"

[Shoofly]

Umm, guys, this is an 8 month old puppy. I'd think perhaps this behavior isn't quite so ingrained yet that the "big guns" (ecollar) needs to come out yet. The owner has a secure area (fenced yard next door) to try to at least improve the behavior and see if she can't fix it, before going to the collar. But it's not going to get fixed waving hotdogs.

[nancy]

My cousin was a dog trainer/behaviorist until he died. He told me to use a shake can with Fergie for cars.

 

I put a bunch of pennies in a cleaned-out soda can and carried it with me. When a car went by and Fergie got "interested", I gave the can a hard shake and said "NO!"

 

At 12, Ferg will still sort of get in a crouch, usually still walking. But that's all - on or off leash. Well, if the driver is going too fast, she'll bark.

[Kayleegator]

By the way, this whole hotdog thing, forget it. When she's acting like a snot like that and ignoring you, go over, grab her collar, give her a shake and let her know you're not happy with her ignoring you. Then if she gives you her attention and will take it, you can give her the hotdog. Or just tell her she's good and not in trouble any more. She needs a correction for ignoring you since she obvious does know what a recall is.

 

Umm, I'm sure you have tried to catch a bc that doesn't want to be caught? I'd have better luck with a greased pig. The hot dog was desperation. I had it on me to reward recall with, ended up trying to use it unsuccessfullly for bait, after too many ignored calls. Tyson comes nicely, though, and I finally used HIM for bait so I could get a hand on my bad girl.

 

I'll use the long line, so she can't repeat that action. She's ignoring recall in our yard, now, too, having learned to bark at the fence: there may be a dog or a car on the other side at times.

 

I've got my work cut out for me, don't I? It'll be at least one dedicated daily recall session for a while.

 

I have worked hard on the car thing for months, really. I'm terrified of her ever getting loose on a street. I have done a couple 'Come to Jesus' get-down, right-in-her-face, loud-enough-to-scare-the-neighborhood corrections. I don't think she saw Jesus, though, just me, hopping mad, and obviously didn't learn what she needed to from the experience. Do I really have to sit on her?

 

As far as going to work with Geri or Ellen: I'll look into it this spring. Weather would not allow the trip just now. Money may be an object, but I'll do my best to work it out.

 

And I will call the trainer that taught our basic obedience class today. She's a dedicated professional who has helped a friend of mine with her wolfdog. She will be leading an agility class next summer, too: Kaylee will be over a year old by then, and hopefully, biddable enough to go.

[Shoofly]

Walking up to a dog and shaking it is only going to make it fear you and not want to come to you.

 

Please read some books on Positive dog training instead of taking advice from those who use aversives. The 'training' advice given on this board sometimes is seriously frightening.

 

No, what's seriously frightening is that this dog is going to get run over one day while someone is shaking a hot dog at it. Read what i wrote - i suggest a mild correction and then positive reinforcement for the dog giving its attention to its owner.

[painted_ponies]

Please read some books on Positive dog training instead of taking advice from those who use aversives. The 'training' advice given on this board sometimes is seriously frightening. why would anybody want to use aversive training with their border collie? talk about completely ruining your trust and relationship with your dog.

 

Well, since Kaylee has already proved she likes chasing cars better than treats, what would you suggest?

 

BTW, what's an "aversive"? I'm assuming it means something to which the dog is averse, (–adjective having a strong feeling of opposition, antipathy, repugnance, etc.; opposed: ) Which is not what is being suggested.

[Shoofly]

I have worked hard on the car thing for months, really. I'm terrified of her ever getting loose on a street. I have done a couple 'Come to Jesus' get-down, right-in-her-face, loud-enough-to-scare-the-neighborhood corrections. I don't think she saw Jesus, though, just me, hopping mad, and obviously didn't learn what she needed to from the experience. Do I really have to sit on her?

 

Sorry, i didn't mean to pick on you about the hotdog thing. It's just a dangerous situation and the image jumped out at me.

 

What you need to learn is some timing. Put her on a rope and let her get out a little way from you. Call her and if she even cocks an eyebrow your way, praise her and you can even give her some hotdog. Repeat but ask for a little more response, maybe that she turn to you. Keep at it until you've worked up to her coming to you. It'll probably take no time at all. Now here's the important part - if she offers any resistance at all to giving you that attention, you have to put some "pressure" on her. Give the line a jerk, run at her so she jumps backwards, just something that is unpleasant for her. Then the nano-second she looks at you, praise and call her to you, so you give her an opportunity to "get out of trouble". Work your way up to doing it in the fenced yard with cars going past. You have to read your dog and discourage unwanted behavior (ignoring you) and reward wanted behavior (attention to you) and your timing has to be spot on.

 

And DO get the Karen Pryor book "Don't Shoot the Dog". It's the best dog training book there is.

[Shetlander]

Again, I don't advocate e-collars for simple training issues, but when you absolutely have to stop a behavior for your dog's safety, then I think it's appropriate.

 

I agree. The only thing I'd add is find someone who knows how to use an e-collar correctly to teach you how to use it. Poor timing, the dog figuring out lightening strikes only when the collar is on, too strong or too weak a correction can result in failure to truly fix the problem or create whole new issues.

[Shoofly]

Umm, I'm sure you have tried to catch a bc that doesn't want to be caught? I'd have better luck with a greased pig.

 

BTW, you know how i catch a dog like that? I chase it and make it very uncomfortable, and then the exact second it says "this is no fun, i don't really want to get away from you, you're making me feel very bad, please let me come back", i stop and call it to me. It always does.

[painted_ponies]

BTW, you know how i catch a dog like that? I chase it and make it very uncomfortable, and then the exact second it says "this is no fun, i don't really want to get away from you, you're making me feel very bad, please let me come back", i stop and call it to me. It always does.

 

This method sure works with horses. Which are even harder to run down and nab than BC

[Shoofly]

In the four months I have had Kaylee, I have walked and worked with her on-leash at least several times a week. She has car issues, fixes them with her sight and would chase them given the opportunity. I have redirected, rewarded, scolded, yelled suddenly, done everything short of a full roll to break her concentration. About the best progress we've made is that she doesn't lunge anymore, and knows very well that I don't like her stalking cars. She still stares them down.

 

Sorry about the multiple posts but i keep seeing things i want to address. When you have her on leash and she glares at cars, this is the perfect opportunity to correct her since it's just the "on leash, i can't get away to run" version of chasing cars. I'd give her a leash pop, a little whack on the nose, whatever it takes to make her stop and let her know it's not allowed. You have to be vigilant and NEVER let her fix her gaze like that. Correct her 1 second into glaring at them, not after she's stared for 10 seconds. She should get to the point where when she sees a car coming she looks away from it.

[stockdogranch]

Please read some books on Positive dog training instead of taking advice from those who use aversives. The 'training' advice given on this board sometimes is seriously frightening. why would anybody want to use aversive training with their border collie? talk about completely ruining your trust and relationship with your dog.

 

So you're saying that if I grab my dog by the collar and give it a shake so I can get its attention in order to to teach it not to run out in the street and get hit by a car that's "aversive," and is therefore "ruining the trust and relationship" with the dog?

 

Are you serious???

 

OK, so what would a "positive" approach to this issue be? I think the hotdog waving was probably an attempt at something positive, no? How well did that work?

 

A

[Laurae]

I really like positive training. I think it's fantastic for everyday manners and true fear issues. However, it is based on the premise that you need to offer a reward the dog values or withhold resources the dog values while the dog is learning. With something like practiced car chasing, that activity is much more rewarding to the dog than any reward you are offering. So you're handicapped if you're using only positive methods, and this activity is very dangerous and just gets more difficult to rectify the longer the dog is allowed to practice it. Using positive methods to build a strong conditioned response to a recall or fix some problematic behaviors work very well if you take the time to do methodical, frequent, incremental setups. However, in the case where this is a problem now, you need to impress upon the dog that this behavior will not be tolerated, period. And thus follow Robin's advice.

[aBC4me]

I'm gonna second the can with pennies, we use this with Blaze because he is very property protective and now whenever we brign the can out he knows that the behavior is a no-no and that he must stop. It actually has been our best friend. Nothing works for us like the can.

[Shoofly]

I'm gonna second the can with pennies, we use this with Blaze because he is very property protective and now whenever we brign the can out he knows that the behavior is a no-no and that he must stop. It actually has been our best friend. Nothing works for us like the can.

 

Yes, the can is an aversive, just like running at the dog, yelling (if it scares the dog that is), jerking a rope. Use the aversive to break the bad behavior (glaring at cars) and then praise the dog for breaking it (stopping glaring at cars). The aversive has to be stronger than the desire to do the bad behavior.