"NewBorders"

[Tranquilis]

What exactly is it that is pissing you people off so much? Is it the fact that they are breeding border collies with another breed? Is it because they are selling them?

I'll tell you straight; My problems with this are:

 

1) That their announcements are prima facie evidence of puppy milling;

2) That they're passing off mutts as a 'breed;'

3) That they're 'registering' their mutts with a scam registry which has as its only pourpose to drive the price of these mutts higher - as baldly stated on their registration form;

4) That they're basically con artists posing as reputable breeders - IOW, they are not, cannot be, responsibly breeding their dogs - the statements they've made on their own website gives the lie to any such claims.

 

THAT'S what's making me so angry.

[Seelie Fey]

I was ranting about this designer dog thing the other day in my blog - http://flyballfever.blogspot.com/ the January 9 entry. It's just so frustrating and consumerist. The other day I saw what looked like a borderdoodle at an agility event. Really hope it was an oopsie. The idea that they would be creating a registry astounds me.

[Tranquilis]

It's entirely possible to create a new breed... But it's a HUGE amount of work, and takes decades, dedication, attention to detail, and willingness to keep intensely meticulous records.

 

I'll give you, as an example, the ISSR and the Shiloh Shepherd. As of this time, the Shiloh is NOT a breed. They can be AKC registered as GSDs, or they can be ISSR registered as Shilohs, understanding that the Shiloh is a breed under development - It's been under development for 34 years, and has been in a specific registry (the ISSR) for 17 years. Tina Barber still won't, despite a pedigree record of some 49000+ dogs, call the type fully developed and ready to be called a breed. She's gone the whole distance - specific breed standards, detailed medical and pedigree history for the dogs, specific breeding guidelines, breeder's codes of ethics, the whole shooting match. Along the way, she's had to deal with multiple attempts to hijack her work, and is probably facing another 20 years of work before she can close the studbooks. Prior to establishing the ISSR, all she had was a peculiar lineage of GSDs, and even now, she still doesn't have an official 'breed.'

 

So, if these 'NewBorder' or 'Labradoodle' or 'Cockapoo' breeders wish to have respect as responsible breeders, they can do it right, such as Tina is doing, or they can simply be called as they are: Producers of pet-quality mutts.

[kelpiegirl]

Tranq:

Thanks for this post- I never knew this detail about the Shilohs.

 

 

It's entirely possible to create a new breed... But it's a HUGE amount of work, and takes decades, dedication, attention to detail, and willingness to keep intensely meticulous records.

 

I'll give you, as an example, the ISSR and the Shiloh Shepherd. As of this time, the Shiloh is NOT a breed. They can be AKC registered as GSDs, or they can be ISSR registered as Shilohs, understanding that the Shiloh is a breed under development - It's been under development for 34 years, and has been in a specific registry (the ISSR) for 17 years. Tina Barber still won't, despite a pedigree record of some 49000+ dogs, call the type fully developed and ready to be called a breed. She's gone the whole distance - specific breed standards, detailed medical and pedigree history for the dogs, specific breeding guidelines, breeder's codes of ethics, the whole shooting match. Along the way, she's had to deal with multiple attempts to hijack her work, and is probably facing another 20 years of work before she can close the studbooks. Prior to establishing the ISSR, all she had was a peculiar lineage of GSDs, and even now, she still doesn't have an official 'breed.'

 

So, if these 'NewBorder' or 'Labradoodle' or 'Cockapoo' breeders wish to have respect as responsible breeders, they can do it right, such as Tina is doing, or they can simply be called as they are: Producers of pet-quality mutts.

[Tranquilis]

Tranq:

Thanks for this post- I never knew this detail about the Shilohs.

No problem - Shiloh's are my other favored type of dog. As they've been successfully tested in herding, and are also suitable as LGDs, I feel that they're complementary to the BC. But there's been some serious attempts to hijack the type, and a lot of mud flung into the waters, so research is neccessary... At least four 'splinter registries' have been set up over the last few years, though most have since folded. Only the original, the ISSR, is pursuing the breed concept and sticking to the original breed vision, though the splinter groups will certainly try to claim otherwise - The proof is in the standards, and in the pedigrees, or lack thereof.

 

That's the danger of trying to create a breed - money and ego can easily get involved, and shortcuts are very tempting. To do it right requires discipline and dedication almost to the point of fanaticism. The puppy mills and the BYBs certainly don't have the discipline, and their records-keeping is a joke, nor do they have defined, rigorous breed standards, nor do they have pretty much ANY of the needful requirements.

 

If these people were to say "we're breeding superior mutts - Mutts with the qualities that we think will make excellent companions," then I'd be hard-pressed to find fault, bar the puppymilling. After all, I've had more mutts than pure-bred dogs over the years, and they can and typically DO make excellent companion animals.

 

But that's not what's happening in *this* case - It's just another puppy mill.

[jdarling]

I just got off the phone with the ACA (American Canine Association -- apparently these are the people that you need to talk to in order to find out about the ICA). I told them I had a litter of Labradoodle puppies I wanted to register with the ICA (International Canine Assocation). She asked me if the parents were registered with the ACA. I said no. She asked if I had any paperwork on the parents at all. I said no, but assured her that both parents are purebreds. She said the only thing she can do for me is send me out an application for the ICA. I told her I saw the ICA application online and asked her if filling out the application would be all I needed to do to get my litter of Labradoodles registered.

 

You'll all be quite shocked to know that her answer was: "Yes."

 

What the hell is this world coming to?

[kate40541]

I wish I was shocked...

 

Tranquilis, thanks for the explanation of what is being done to create a new breed. I knew it had to be more than just a cute name and buyers with too much money who want the latest fad when all they're buying is a mutt with a meaningless registration.

 

Suzanne

[jamesqf]

4) That they're basically con artists posing as reputable breeders - IOW, they are not, cannot be, responsibly breeding their dogs - the statements they've made on their own website gives the lie to any such claims.

 

Exactly. I must admit that I prefer mutts, in general, but these aren't even the honest, accidental mutts that can be had at your local shelter for a small adoption fee. It's obviously just a scam to separate the gullible & status-conscious from their money, no different from tripling the price of a pair of jeans by sewing on a designer label.

[Tranquilis]

Tranquilis, thanks for the explanation of what is being done to create a new breed. I knew it had to be more than just a cute name and buyers with too much money who want the latest fad when all they're buying is a mutt with a meaningless registration.

Well, I'm certainly no expert - Tina and her licensed breeders are the experts - I've only skimmed the surface very lightly. But yeah, it's a lot of long, hard, detailed work. The genetics tracking and the littermate x-ray programs are insanely involved. OTOH, the benefit is that Shilohs produce, if I recall correctly, only roughly 1% unacceptably displastic dogs. GSDs, overall, run a bit less than 28%, across the breed*. Likewise, ABCA's strict standards help ensure that the highly complex behaviors and attributes that make the BC what it is are retained and preserved.

 

As for the random registries, I was also shocked, to see what people can, and do, try to get away with... And often succeed! General ignorance by the public at large (heck, until recently, *I* was pretty ignorant on the subject!), inadequate legal structure, and 'puppies for profit' - it's a mess. Canada, as I understand, has a more robust legal environment, but I'm unsure how that would or could work in the US.

 

 

 

*Linda P. Case: The Dog: Its Behavior, Nutrition, and Health; 2005, p275.

[SoloRiver]

I was ranting about this designer dog thing the other day in my blog - http://flyballfever.blogspot.com/ the January 9 entry. It's just so frustrating and consumerist.

 

Not to put you on the spot, but I wonder how you feel about the proliferation of flyball crosses out there? I won't even get into the ethics of breeding for flyball in the first place...

[Northof49]

Well, I'm certainly no expert - Tina and her licensed breeders are the experts - I've only skimmed the surface very lightly. But yeah, it's a lot of long, hard, detailed work. The genetics tracking and the littermate x-ray programs are insanely involved. OTOH, the benefit is that Shilohs produce, if I recall correctly, only roughly 1% unacceptably displastic dogs. GSDs, overall, run a bit less than 28%, across the breed*. Likewise, ABCA's strict standards help ensure that the highly complex behaviors and attributes that make the BC what it is are retained and preserved.

 

As for the random registries, I was also shocked, to see what people can, and do, try to get away with... And often succeed! General ignorance by the public at large (heck, until recently, *I* was pretty ignorant on the subject!), inadequate legal structure, and 'puppies for profit' - it's a mess. Canada, as I understand, has a more robust legal environment, but I'm unsure how that would or could work in the US.

*Linda P. Case: The Dog: Its Behavior, Nutrition, and Health; 2005, p275.

 

From what I have seen of Shiloh Shepherds and researched, etc. the incident of HD is much higher than that, and the ones that I have come across over the last 6 years (if I counted right it is about 22) they have all had questionable temperaments,. Some I have met in person, and some I have done behavioural work in via telephone and in conjunction with other trainers. I actually haven't met anyone that would get a second one. They don't seem to stand up to the claims of what the breed is.

 

With respect to registeries in Canada, registrations are governed by Agriculture Canada via the Animal Pedigree Act, so someone cannot just decide to start up their own private registry, like they can in the U.S.A. , anc there can only be one registry for any breed at any one time. You can't have multiple registeries. As I said, this doesn't preclude people from breeding designer dogs, but they can't create a registry for them.

[Dixie_Girl]

I just looked up Shiloh's. I saw a few pics of them. They are gorgeous! Nice straight backs! That is one of the reasons Miss Tina started this breeding program. She wanted a GSD that was like what she remembered as a child in Germany. Imagine having to create a "new breed", to get back to what was "original"! The people who say why worry about ACK, pay attention to the time involved to breed back what was lost! I hope she is successful in keeping her breed out of ACK. I can see in 20yrs. Shiloh's with sloped backs or some other silly thing!

[Tranquilis]

From what I have seen of Shiloh Shepherds and researched, etc. the incident of HD is much higher than that, and the ones that I have come across over the last 6 years (if I counted right it is about 22) they have all had questionable temperaments,.

Were they ISSR Shilohs, or one of the splinter registered dogs? I'd certainly agree, from what I've seen of the splinter dogs, that they don't measure up to standards. Nor, for that matter, will all the ISSR dogs - There's a reason the breed is called 'under development,' after all. I may have mis-read Tina's numbers - I'll go back and look (a bit later this evening - I'm about to log out for a bit), but 1% is the number I recall seeing.

[Tranquilis]

I may have mis-read Tina's numbers - I'll go back and look (a bit later this evening - I'm about to log out for a bit), but 1% is the number I recall seeing.

Ah! I *did* mis-read.

1% Severly displastic (breeding pool disqual). Depending on year of survey, typically between 5 and 8% mildly displastic (breeding pool disqual), and again, depending on year, up to 10% that are indeterminiate (breeding allowable, with good cause). Not all dogs were measured, as those dogs which have gone to the AKC, or have been removed from breeding (pet quality, splinter groups) are poorly reported. So, OK - worst case numbers: up to 9% verifiably displastic to one degree or another, and another 10% indeterminate (marginal). Still markedly better than the nearly 28% (NOT counting marginals) reported elsewhere in the GSD population, by a substantial margin.

[jdarling]

And just out of curiosity ... on one of the breeders' sites, I read that they are in the "Herding Group" ... and they refer to "work" and talk about Search and Rescue, etc. but say they are not good for police work because of their great temperaments. Does anyone know how well they herd? Better or worse than in comparison to the average GSD you see nowadays?

 

Jodi

[stockdogranch]

Purely anecdotal evidence: I had one come through my place some years back (probably about 6 years ago) and it was pretty similar, working-wise, to the typical GSDs I've seen over the years,

A

[Tranquilis]

Some of them herd pretty well, but they're never going to challenge the BC for 'l33t herding skilz!' It's definately a minority of the type, though. I don't know if that's ownership selection bias, or type bias - Not many owners seem to have been bitten by the sheep trial bug. I'd be more inclined to select a harder temperment Shiloh-type dog for LGD duties, and leave the herding to BCs.

 

I'm most familliar with the SAR dogs, and those're definately not police dogs. I also know a couple service dogs, one fully trained, one in training, and again, NOT police dogs.

[Seelie Fey]

Not to put you on the spot, but I wonder how you feel about the proliferation of flyball crosses out there? I won't even get into the ethics of breeding for flyball in the first place...

 

Exactly the same way I feel about other designer-dog breeding. And I don't believe in breeding for flyball. Both my dogs came from the shelter. Most of the dogs on our team are rescues or pound puppy specials. I'm into flyball because of my dogs, not into my dogs because of flyball.

[painted_ponies]

I'm into flyball because of my dogs, not into my dogs because of flyball.

 

*applauds*

 

The guy I work sheep with on Saturdays told me he got out of agility when it became more about winning than about having fun with the dogs. Which is good for me I guess because that's when he got into sheepdog trialling. But he doesn't trial anymore either, I suspect partially for the same reason he stopped doing agility.

[jdarling]

Just an update:

 

A friend of mine wrote to Old Tumbleweed -- whose name is Paul Howard -- and asked about the NewBorder puppies. She was asking for pedigree information, etc. What she got in response was something that went like this (not directly quoted):

 

"I didn't pay to get their pedigree ... only their registration papers ... Our pups come with papers which documents that they are 1/2 Newfoundland and 1/2 Border Collie ... I had someone ask for copies of papers before and that person created a big mess with AKC by stealing my dogs number and registered him and a litter. I won't do it again."

 

So she wrote him back and asked him to snap a photo of the papers, and told him to feel free to smudge all the registration numbers.

 

She got no response.

 

In the meantime, I wrote to the ICA inquiring about registering my (non-existent) labradoodle litter, and a gentleman by the name of "Paul" answered me and told me to contact the ACA (American Canine Association). So I did. And I reported my findings earlier. Then I got to thinking about it, and wrote back to "Paul" and asked where I could find the listing of officers and directors of the ICA.

 

No response.

 

I cannot believe people fall for this stuff.

[diane allen]

What are they thinking?

 

Obviously: money.

 

And money only.

 

diane