Kato and the Behaviorist Update

[M.L.]

Well, we took Kato to the behaviorist yesterday. We also took Odin so that she could see how the two of them interact. She said that Odin is definitely the dominant dog and that Kato was showing submissive behaviors towards Odin. She did not see any aggression between the two of them. She does feel that Kato needs to build his confidence and that my husband needs to do better at establishing himself as the "leader". She gave us many tips about how to interact with all of the dogs in our household. She already knows all of mine from our training together. She gave my husband tips on how he should be interacting with Kato and Odin. We got some of Patricia McConnell's small handouts/books to read as well as some other handouts from the behaviorist. She spent some time with my husband showing him how he should start training his dogs and how to reward them. She agreed that the anxiety meds would definitely help Kato right now. My husband signed up for a training class with Kato that starts soon in order to learn how to train his dogs and to build Kato's confidence level.

 

We were advised to keep Kato and Odin apart unless they are being supervised, just in case, which we planned on doing anyway. Kato is still freaking out in his crate. In fact, I am webcamming him while I'm at work so that if I need to I can run home. So far he goes between bouts of trying to escape and bouts of laying down and napping. I wish it didn't take a month or so for his anxiety meds to kick in! I hope it will help him with these panic attacks. I bought Ginger a new crate and gave Kato her old one in case he destroys it. We put a piece of sheet metal under the crate so he can't get to the carpet. He doesn't seem to be trying extremely hard to get out right now, nor does he seem like he is going to hurt himself. Mostly a lot of barking and digging at the corners of the crate. I'll go home if it looks like he is going to hurt himself.

 

It does not seem like we have a major problem between Kato and Odin, thank goodness! However, we will never be leaving them alone together, just in case. We will be keeping a very close eye on their interactions. Odin got his stitches out and doesn't have to wear his lampshade anymore. We have not seen any aggression between him and Kato at home. I hope that soon we can get back to a somewhat normal routine!

 

Thank you everyone who gave me suggestions!

[kelpiegirl]

You know, I had a big bru-ha-ha between two dogs- that resulted in injury to one. I don't know what set it off. Anyway, the seem to be getting along fine now, but I still watch when I am just home, or the house is otherwise active. Anyway, I made an interesting observation. Nikke wears a "bite not" collar, which basically looks like a tube collar, so she can't touch her wound. This has kept her head up- usually, she acts very submissive to me, and everything, and this gives the other dogs some boosted confidence. Well, with her head up, they treat her just like another dog, and not some wimpy thing to try and push around. It is interesting to see the change.

[Lenajo]

It seems your behaviorist did not read the top 10 dog myths by Donaldson. (per the other recent thread)

 

Dominence issues between dogs in the pack, need for a consistant leader and structure.....use of books by McConnell to enforce these principles

 

I wish you the best of luck with your dogs, but I have to shake my head at the disagreements in educated dogdem. In one thread we call them myths, and in the next we call them good advice!

 

 

 

 

Well, we took Kato to the behaviorist yesterday. We also took Odin so that she could see how the two of them interact. She said that Odin is definitely the dominant dog and that Kato was showing submissive behaviors towards Odin. She did not see any aggression between the two of them. She does feel that Kato needs to build his confidence and that my husband needs to do better at establishing himself as the "leader". She gave us many tips about how to interact with all of the dogs in our household. She already knows all of mine from our training together. She gave my husband tips on how he should be interacting with Kato and Odin. We got some of Patricia McConnell's small handouts/books to read as well as some other handouts from the behaviorist. She spent some time with my husband showing him how he should start training his dogs and how to reward them. She agreed that the anxiety meds would definitely help Kato right now. My husband signed up for a training class with Kato that starts soon in order to learn how to train his dogs and to build Kato's confidence level.

 

We were advised to keep Kato and Odin apart unless they are being supervised, just in case, which we planned on doing anyway. Kato is still freaking out in his crate. In fact, I am webcamming him while I'm at work so that if I need to I can run home. So far he goes between bouts of trying to escape and bouts of laying down and napping. I wish it didn't take a month or so for his anxiety meds to kick in! I hope it will help him with these panic attacks. I bought Ginger a new crate and gave Kato her old one in case he destroys it. We put a piece of sheet metal under the crate so he can't get to the carpet. He doesn't seem to be trying extremely hard to get out right now, nor does he seem like he is going to hurt himself. Mostly a lot of barking and digging at the corners of the crate. I'll go home if it looks like he is going to hurt himself.

 

It does not seem like we have a major problem between Kato and Odin, thank goodness! However, we will never be leaving them alone together, just in case. We will be keeping a very close eye on their interactions. Odin got his stitches out and doesn't have to wear his lampshade anymore. We have not seen any aggression between him and Kato at home. I hope that soon we can get back to a somewhat normal routine!

 

Thank you everyone who gave me suggestions!

[M.L.]

1. Dogs are naturally pack animals with a clear social order.

2. If you let dogs exit doorways ahead of you, you're letting them be dominant.

3. In multi-dog households, "support the hierarchy" by giving presumend dominant animals patting, treats, etc. first, before giving the same attention to presumed subordinate animals.

4. Dogs hav an innate desire to please.

5. Rewards are bribes and thus compromise relationships

6. If you pat your dog when he's afraid, you're rewarding the fear.

7. Punish dogs for growling or else they'll become aggressive.

8. Playing tug makes dogs aggressive.

9 If you give dogs chew toys, they'll learn to chew everything.

10. You can't modify "genetic" behaviour.

 

 

1. She did tell us that the pack dynamics change depending on place, room, situation etc.

2. She does not agree with this statement.

3. She did not tell us to treat Odin as if he were the special, dominant dog. She just told my husband to have the dogs work for everything, even attention. Ask them to sit. Have them do a command for their food. Basically, using NILF.

4. Our husky has never had an innate desire to please. He acts like a cat. Very aloof and stubborn.

5. She does not think rewards are bribes, but does use positive reinforcement and not punishment.

6. I let her know that I will sit down and pet Kato when he is fearful of someone and that he will then let the person pet him. She did not disagree with this.

7. She did not tell me to punish any of the dogs if they growled. She went over some dog language with us.

8. Odin loves tug. It is his favorite game with my husband. He is not interested in treats. She told him to use a quick game of tug as a reward.

9. My dogs only chew their chew toys.

10. She definitely thinks you can modify genetic behavior by some degree.

 

I guess she doesn't agree with the myths!

[herdcentral]

Interesting. I break most of the 10 myths but I must say my senior dog and matriarch gets to ride in the front seat of the car while the others are in the back and she does get her food bowl down first. She will also get her treat first. The others have no problem with this.

 

I recognise and avoid the situations that could potentially start a fight but on occasion when I sense a mounting tension they all, senior dog included get put in their crates for some timeout. Once everyone is relaxed and the source of contention has been removed I let them out.

 

My ACDS sometimes tussle over bones, my BC usually get ignored because she is a lightweight in comparison and they obviously dont view her as competition. She runs around the edges and cheers them on!

 

My dogs do like to please me but they are also no pushover, I use treats to show them what I want.

 

Modification of genetic behaviour is hard work. I have a genetically fearful dog despite and her personality is polar opposite to my other 2 extroverts. She has improved a lot but sometimes things just become too much for her.

 

My dogs love a good game of tug.

 

I have noticed if any of them show signs of weakness or injury the others pick it up immediately and will investigate. There is definitely pack dynamics and social order going on with my crew! My matriarch will enforce certain protocols despite being an even tempered creature. If the other dont comply she will whip their butts. I usually step in if an escalation is on the cards.

 

Generally they all get on very well.

[Lenajo]

She may not "agree" with the myths but she is agreeing with some of them. She just words it more politically correclty than the alpha/omega crew.

 

The only reason to use NILIF is to demote a dog's attitude of himself over you. That is..you get, what you earn. You listen to me as the leader, you earn reward. If the dog isn't interested in getting things without earning them it wouldn't be necessary. If he wasn't intersting in being the top in the relationship (i.e. dominent) then this program wouldnt' be required.

 

Modifing genetic behavior is different than changing it. Jean Donaldson stated that "you cannot change genetics" is a myth. I disagree. You cannot change genetics, no matter what the behaviorist say. You can bury them as deeply in behavior as you can, but in the end they are still there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. She did tell us that the pack dynamics change depending on place, room, situation etc.

2. She does not agree with this statement.

3. She did not tell us to treat Odin as if he were the special, dominant dog. She just told my husband to have the dogs work for everything, even attention. Ask them to sit. Have them do a command for their food. Basically, using NILF.

4. Our husky has never had an innate desire to please. He acts like a cat. Very aloof and stubborn.

5. She does not think rewards are bribes, but does use positive reinforcement and not punishment.

6. I let her know that I will sit down and pet Kato when he is fearful of someone and that he will then let the person pet him. She did not disagree with this.

7. She did not tell me to punish any of the dogs if they growled. She went over some dog language with us.

8. Odin loves tug. It is his favorite game with my husband. He is not interested in treats. She told him to use a quick game of tug as a reward.

9. My dogs only chew their chew toys.

10. She definitely thinks you can modify genetic behavior by some degree.

 

I guess she doesn't agree with the myths!

[M.L.]

The only reason to use NILIF is to demote a dog's attitude of himself over you. That is..you get, what you earn. You listen to me as the leader, you earn reward. If the dog isn't interested in getting things without earning them it wouldn't be necessary. If he wasn't intersting in being the top in the relationship (i.e. dominent) then this program wouldnt' be required.

 

Yes, my husband needs to establish himself as the leader with his dogs. This has less to do with reinforcing Odin's dominance over Kato and much more to do with my husband establishing himself as the leader of both of his dogs. My dogs look to me as a leader and we stopped NILF a long time ago. They still look to me as a leader. They listen. They read my body language. As an example, if we are outside playing and some dog goes strolling by with his owner, my dogs look to me for direction. I may call them to me. I may ask them to stay. I may let them go say hi. I may have them all sit and wait. They don't just go running off like crazy dogs. That is just one small example. They see me as their leader. Then they have their own pack dynamics that I don't try to change.

 

My husband is not very good with training his dogs. Kato is getting better with basic commands, thanks to me. His dogs don't have a solid stay or a solid recall. I think these two commands are very important. He will give a command and his dogs will ignore him. His dogs listen better to me than to him because I have been working on establishing my leadership with them. Using NILF will help him to establish this and to work on training his dogs at the same time.

[Shetlander]

Yes, my husband needs to establish himself as the leader with his dogs. This has less to do with reinforcing Odin's dominance over Kato and much more to do with my husband establishing himself as the leader of both of his dogs.

 

I agree with this approach (not that I'm an expert). Last year, Quinn and the Lhasa's posturing for position started to escalate. Neither is a clearly dominant dog but both were persistent wannabes with each other. Fortunately, my obedience instructor helped me to effectively crack down on pushy, provocative behaviors while at the same time sending a very clear message that I was in charge and there was absolutely no openings for advancement for either dog. By being very firm regarding what I would tolerate in terms of posturing (which is next to nothing), tensions have been greatly reduced in my household. I don't see these dogs ever being true friends but peaceful coexistance and following my rules (which include NO POSTURING) is all I ask.

 

So I think sometimes by being a clearer, more effective leader you can have a very positive impact on your dog's behavior. This same instructor helped a friend whose female BC was very dog reactive. Using calm, gentle corrections the dog has made amazing progress in ignoring other dogs. I've watched her quickly go from tense and ugly to so relaxed and almost relieved after a correction. It's like a weight is lifted off her shoulders and she doesn't need to worry about the other dogs anymore.