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Jean Donaldson article - Dogs in Canada - Jan. 2008


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The article is entitled Fairy Tales The Top 10 Dog Behaviour Myths. I found this rather interesting - without typing up the entire article - here are the top 10 myths that she lists. Given all the discussions on fearful dogs, dominant dogs, unsocialized dogs, etc. I thought it might spark some discussion. :rolleyes:

 

1. Dogs are naturally pack animals with a clear social order.

2. If you let dogs exit doorways ahead of you, you're letting them be dominant.

3. In multi-dog households, "support the hierarchy" by giving presumend dominant animals patting, treats, etc. first, before giving the same attention to presumed subordinate animals.

4. Dogs hav an innate desire to please.

5. Rewards are bribes and thus compromise relationships

6. If you pat your dog when he's afraid, you're rewarding the fear.

7. Punish dogs for growling or else they'll become aggressive.

8. Playing tug makes dogs aggressive.

9 If you give dogs chew toys, they'll learn to chew everything.

10. You can't modify "genetic" behaviour.

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Guest SweetJordan
This article is in the magazine I get so I haven't been able to find a link on line (yet!) I suspect you can't get Dogs in Canada in the US!

You never know. They have the UK verison of Country Living at Borders.

 

Oh and very interesting. Thanks for sharing. I found myth number 6 to be very interesting, I've always been told that. My dad has always said that wasn't true.

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No 4 - Dogs do have an innate desire to please ....... themselves.

 

No 6 - It depends on how it's done. If it's accompanied by confident behaviour on behalf of the handler, that's fine. if it's just OTT babying the dog (or child) no.

 

All the rest I agree 100% that they are untrue.

 

Pam

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This is good to read! Especially this one:

 

2. If you let dogs exit doorways ahead of you, you're letting them be dominant.

 

since that kind of thinking is still so popular and doesn't do the dogs and their intelligence any justice in my opinion. I'd love a link to the article, too!

 

No 6 - It depends on how it's done. If it's accompanied by confident behaviour on behalf of the handler, that's fine. if it's just OTT babying the dog (or child) no.

 

Agree 100%.

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2. If you let dogs exit doorways ahead of you, you're letting them be dominant.

 

Yes! My sister and I were just talking about this the other day. When I let the dog go through the door ahead of me, it's because I simply CAN'T hold a door open for a dog behind me, and hang onto a leash in one hand and a purse in the other hand. If I get the dog out first, then I can hold the door with my hip, and everything flows quite well.

 

My dog will give up a bone if I tell him to. He'll get on/off things as ordered. He'll do a down/stay 3 feet from another dog who scares him. I'm pretty sure he recognizes my leadership and takes my advice. Sometimes my best advice is, "Go out the door first, so I can take care of all these things I'm juggling in my hands!"

 

 

Mary

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Wow this is interesting. As a still-learning, mostly board lurker, owner of a Border X and an Aussie, neither of whom "work" but do manage to play there brains out, this was awesome to read. I have read and been told all those things and I feel really embarrassed that those myths are what I thought were TRUE. I had to re-read the post making sure the list you posted were the myths.

 

I'd like to comment on these b/c if I could get some feedback regarding how to undo some of these myths that I thought were true, thereby, operating this way for 5 years. Suppose this is a confession of sorts.

 

1. Dogs are naturally pack animals with a clear social order.

Of course I thought this was true. Ya hear it all the time.

2. If you let dogs exit doorways ahead of you, you're letting them be dominant.

Thought this was too but it's really hard to implement with a tiny house and really stoked dogs that want to be outside so so badly

3. In multi-dog households, "support the hierarchy" by giving presumend dominant animals patting, treats, etc. first, before giving the same attention to presumed subordinate animals.

Ummm I've done this from day one. So this isn't true? Should I just stop? Curly has been fed first every meal for 5 years. By believing this, did I reinforce some of his qualities like stubborness and clearly ignoring us at times?

4. Dogs hav an innate desire to please.

whut?

5. Rewards are bribes and thus compromise relationships

I've heard that too but I blew that one off. I work for food too :rolleyes:

6. If you pat your dog when he's afraid, you're rewarding the fear.

I do console and I try to also simultaneously make him work or play while he is afraid and when the thunder starts he wants to be in our laps, so I'll try to calm him a bit then commense all the fun.

7. Punish dogs for growling or else they'll become aggressive.

learned that one the hard way

8. Playing tug makes dogs aggressive.

Curly LOVES tug. He's the so engaged and interactive when he plays tug and I never let anyone play it with him. How sad is that? what about the part about not letting them win b/c that lets them think whatever...they're great?

9 If you give dogs chew toys, they'll learn to chew everything.

nah

10. You can't modify "genetic" behaviour.

never heard that one

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*applauds* Excellent! I'll take a minute to make a shameless plug for Jean's "Culture Clash". Everyone who owns a dog should read it.

 

I agree. I don't buy all of her "dogma", no pun intended, but she has some great insights. (For one I think she can be a bit over the top in dismissing the "soulishness" of the dogs"). PS: I dont' buy ALL of any authors "dogma" however.

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Well, I'll be the oddball out here (nothing new there....). I've taught 2 of my 3 dogs (not a bad record, huh?) that they only get to go out the door WHEN I SAY SO. Nothing about dominance there - just more their safety. If they are on leash, who cares who goes first? But often they're not. So - sit, wait, OK. That's our routine and it works just fine! Again, at the risk of repeating myself....this has nothing to do with dominance - on their part or mine!

 

diane

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3. In multi-dog households, "support the hierarchy" by giving presumend dominant animals patting, treats, etc. first, before giving the same attention to presumed subordinate animals. THIS is so true. I dole out attention and food based on who is being the most passive and calm at that moment.

4. Dogs hav an innate desire to please. Truthfully? After living with Eve I can't say there's no such thing as a dog that wants to please their owner. Eve wants nothing more than to know she's done right and that I'm happy with her.

6. If you pat your dog when he's afraid, you're rewarding the fear. Yes and no. With some dogs, acknowledging the fear at all is a bad move. With others, giving attention and consolation with the right timing can be useful. Key words: right timing. Not while the dog is flipping out, but in the exact moment that the dog calmly addresses the fear, prior to the freakout.

10. You can't modify "genetic" behaviour. Again, yes and no. You could modify a Border Collie's behavior so the dog wouldn't even look at sheep when put in a pen with them, but if you exit the picture and the dog is left on its own with the sheep, instinct will overtake a trained behavior. Same goes with dogs bred to protect, IMO. They might be fine with you standing right there, holding their hand, but how do you know they'll be okay without your guidance? It takes some really superb training to RELIABLY overcome a chain of behaviors that forms an instinct.

 

I love Jean Donaldson. +1 for Culture Clash.

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Ours have also been taught to let me go the stairs first, because the front door might be open, and if someone comes driving by the house from the left, they couldn't see a dog until it would be right in the road. So yes, we do that too. I just don't think it's anything to do with either following or leading. What normal dog would feel the need to physically follow its leader around on such familiar ground?

 

As for tugging, maybe it depends on the dog, but Kessie knows very well that it's a game. I let her win almost 99% of tug matches. Sometimes I don't, and we get into drawn-out hardhead competitions that drag on until we're both physically miserable - I can win those if I want it enough (but I'm almost convinced that there was one time she let ME win, or let go out of pity). But no matter how rough it gets, I could always just ask her to drop the ball and she'd do it. It's my ball, but that has nothing to do with who can hold on to it longer! She knows that very well, I think.

With Kyla, I'm not so sure. She still doesn't dare to play rough tug with a human, so maybe she does attach some significance to it that it doesn't have.

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I have a big fat problem with #1.

 

I've seen, with my own eyes, dogs 'pack-up' too often to buy that it's a myth. It may not be nearly as strong a drive as one would expect in, say, African Wild Dogs, or Wolves, but I've met too many feral packs to believe that they don't 'pack-up' on their own innitiative. If she were to say, instead, that dogs do not have a STRONG pack instinct, I'd be more inclined to believe her.

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I have a big fat problem with #1.

 

I've seen, with my own eyes, dogs 'pack-up' too often to buy that it's a myth. It may not be nearly as strong a drive as one would expect in, say, African Wild Dogs, or Wolves, but I've met too many feral packs to believe that they don't 'pack-up' on their own innitiative. If she were to say, instead, that dogs do not have a STRONG pack instinct, I'd be more inclined to believe her.

 

I believe Jean thinks that pack order is more fluid than we may have initially believed; that one dog may be dominant over another in one area (e.g., resource guarder) but not another (e.g., doorway entrance order) and vice versa. So it's not that there is no pack order, but that it's a bit more fuzzy and complex than once believed.

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4. Dogs hav an innate desire to please. Truthfully? After living with Eve I can't say there's no such thing as a dog that wants to please their owner. Eve wants nothing more than to know she's done right and that I'm happy with her.

 

Same here with Ludo, especially round an agility course. Anyone thats ever run him will agree to that one. He just wants to get it right for you. The words 'push button' have been mentioned more than once (pity I can't manage to push the right ones at the right time isn't it... :rolleyes: )

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So it's not that there is no pack order, but that it's a bit more fuzzy and complex than once believed.
Ah! See, now phrased like that, I'd have to say 'Yes,' I agree. But then I'm rather prone to hair-splitting and deconstructing blanket statements (even my own sometimes! :rolleyes: ) - I like answers well-qualified.
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4. Dogs hav an innate desire to please. Truthfully? After living with Eve I can't say there's no such thing as a dog that wants to please their owner. Eve wants nothing more than to know she's done right and that I'm happy with her.

I know what you are saying, but I interpret things slightly differently. Dogs have an instinctive need to do things together (this is the instinct in the wild that helps them to hunt as a pack). When we finish an agility course -- or even coming home from our morning walk -- I get the "we did it together" look from Senneca. This is not (just) splitting hairs; dogs (and especially BCs) really get their kicks from working well with you as a team.

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I know what you are saying, but I interpret things slightly differently. Dogs have an instinctive need to do things together (this is the instinct in the wild that helps them to hunt as a pack). When we finish an agility course -- or even coming home from our morning walk -- I get the "we did it together" look from Senneca. This is not (just) splitting hairs; dogs (and especially BCs) really get their kicks from working well with you as a team.

 

I believe some dogs have a stronger desire than others to not be "in trouble," because the've learned that happy owner/handler = more of the things they want in life (whether this is pats, treats, games, tugging, or even simply nonconflict/nontension).

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I believe some dogs have a stronger desire than others to not be "in trouble," because the've learned that happy owner/handler = more of the things they want in life (whether this is pats, treats, games, tugging, or even simply nonconflict/nontension).

Although I think "dogs have an innate desire to please" as a myth may be somewhat true as a generality, border collies were bred specifically to be willing (have desire) to work with their human partners (that's why we talk about biddability). I suppose you could translate that into getting more of what they want (working sheep), but I think it's just as likely that those dogs that didn't have the innate desire to please (i.e., were too independent minded when it came to having any sort of working partnership with a human) probably did not get much chance to contribute to the gene pool. I know if I had one who really didn't wish to have a human involved with the work (oh, I do have one of those), the dog wouldn't be useful to me as far as managing my stock and therefore it's genetics would go no further. Just a slightly different view on the "innate desire to please" thing.

 

J.

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