Hoku got a deer

[hoku's mum]

We are having a bad windy wet storm today, and I went out to check the creek and pond, etc for flooding. Hoku spooked some deer next to the pond and took chase (this is all on our property). As he has blown me off in the past when he has started the chase (I can stop him if I call him off before he bolts... once he goes, he just ignores me, but has never left the property, abandons the chase at the property line) I just let him go today, not wanting to let him practice blowing me off, and thinking the run will help him blow some steam off.

 

Well, a couple of minutes later I hear a sickening scream above the roaring wind, and I ran to find out what happened. Well, he had the deer down and was just all over it, mostly dragging it by a leg. It was still very alive, but with a very broken leg. I pulled him off, dragged him away and threw him into his pen. It was all I could do to not just loose it. I was able to track down a neighbor who came over and shot it to end it's suffering. I am just sick about this. I don't know if he caught it and broke it's leg, or if it's leg went into a hole (we have a ton of gopher holes and the soil it very soft right now) and was broken in the chase and that is why he was able to catch it. He has never even gotten close before.... Guess it doesn't really matter. My main concern is that now that he has 'had a taste', I am worried that I can never let him off leash, even on our own property, let alone on all the hikes we do. I am just so upset, I can't even look at him. I have never worked so hard with a dog before, and I still don't have the control that is needed for him....I am tired and burned out on dealing with his issues and needs.... When I let up just a hair, he does something stupid (I know, he is just being a dog...) I guess I feel trapped by him and the level of management he demands, I am such a dog person, I love him dearly, but I just don't know what to do next. ::::sigh::::

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

OMG. I couldn't imagine.

I grew up on (lack for a better word) a farm. We usually carried a few hundred chickens and turkeys with the odd ducks, geese and rabbits. Great way for kids to learn the meaning of life I tell ya as they were all for food! We always had dogs around to keep predators away. Northern Ontario is pretty full of any predator you could imagine, so between us, my grandmother and other relatives that lived around there were usually 4 or 5 dogs lurking about at night to keep the birds safe. The one rule my father had was if it gets into the birds it's no good. End of story. Now, I don't know if the whole "once they taste blood" theory is true, but I would keep a close eye on him for sure. Just use a long rope instead of a leash when you walk him so he doesn't feel restricted. It's a tough call because you don't really know if he did take down the deer or not and you don't know if he would have finished it off either.

[Laurae]

Hey Kristin,

First of all, I totally sympathize. I have a deer chaser (and wildlife killer), too. Sophie has never gotten a deer before, but she is exactly the same as Hoku in that I can call her off if I catch her before she starts running, but once she is off, she will not stop and return to me no matter what I do. So, like you, I don't bother calling her off at that point. (Hoku is one up on Sophie, I suspect, in that Sophie would probably not respect any property line.) Anyway, I know it seems awful that Hoku may have taken this deer down, and disheartening that you've put so much effort into training a difficult dog (um...yeah...I so know what you're feeling right now), but really Hoku has likely only finished the sequence he started when he first gave chase because this time the opportunity presented itself to him. As we all know, dogs are opportunists. Sometimes that works out well, other times not so much. If I were you, I might keep him on a long line for a while to see if his unexpected "success" catching the deer makes him more likely to try to repeat that experience, but I wouldn't automatically conclude that it will. Sophie caught a prairie dog last year, and I was afraid this would make her an even more avid hunter (and chasing prairie dogs is prohibited around here), but it doesn't seem to have made it more difficult to prevent her chase of them. It's the same deal as before she was successful--I can call her off before she starts chasing, but not after, and she is no more difficult to call off beforehand and no more obsessed with the chase than she's always been. I do understand you frustration, and your fear, but hopefully this experience will not actually have much of a behavior-changing impact for Hoku either.

[Dixie_Girl]

Blame my old age for not remembering, but has Hoku had any stock training? If not, it might be a good idea to look into it. It doesn't matter if he goes no further than the round pen, it will give the opportunity for "chase" and to stop "chasing". It is difficult to teach a dog to not chase something when it does not come up that often, and he has already been rewarded every time, even though he had only gone to y'alls property line. The point is, he needs to learn that animals can and most important, can NOT be chased. I don't know about y'alls woods, but in mine, unless I knew 100% that I could grab that line, I would not put it on him. We have over 500,000 acres of woods in just my immediate vicinity. I wouldn't want to take the chance of him getting away, then having the line on him that could get caught on something, and Lord, I would never find him! JMO.

 

Kristen, I feel for ya! We all get that feeling! Next week, you'll wonder how you could manage without him!

 

Good luck!

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I agree with dixie girl. Doing stock training is a really good idea if he hasn't had any, he would learn some restraint that way!

[SnickerKitten]

I'll echo the recommendation for stock training.

 

Lori

[Laurae]

He might, he might not. Sophie had some training on stock. Didn't really make a difference for her.

[Ruger's Dad]

I have just about always been able to stop Ruger when I needed. I stopped him several times when we started going after people that came into the yard. This is really his worst habit. He is very territorial. If another dog comes into the yard, usually it is to be run off in his mind. This would go for a deer as well. However, our neighborhood has so many fences the deer stay away from our side.

 

I would suggest leashing Hoku and use a stop command while walking. Get to the point that you can continue walking and Hoku is stopped in his tracks. If you play fetch, incorporate the stop command in that as well. I will tell you one thing, if Ruger ran off and did not stop when I told him too I would have him on the ground so fast he wouldn't have time to react. Scoldings work wonders on him. And no, I wouldn't hit or beat him. Not minding the owner is not acceptable.

 

It is hard for me to believe that a dog can run down a healthy deer. A healthy deer is just too nimble and fast. I had many years of experience with deer. More than likely the deer was already injured. It is not unusual to see crippled deer around here. They do survive pretty well because of the lack of predators. If Hoku is territorial, this could very well happen again. I don't have a clue how to untrain a dog that his masters home is to be protected. The only thing that can be done is to teach the stop command.

[blackacre]

I don't have a clue how to untrain a dog that his masters home is to be protected

 

Ummm, what, you think the deer was maybe packing heat?

 

Kristen, I suggest you put him on a long line, invite the behaviour, let him get a head start and then flip him but good once he reaches the end of the line (run the other way if you need to). Then, once he picks himself up, call him back nicely. A couple of sessions like that and he'll be thinking twice before he blows you off on the recall again, deer or no deer. Yeah, it's harsh, but so is killing deer. Even if he never catches one again, chasing after one is bloody dangerous too.

 

A

[painted_ponies]

Wow. Ok, I know, it must have been a really horrifying experience and I would hate having to destroy one of the deer that hang out around my farm. But damn, that's a pretty impressive feat, to drag down a deer, er, single-handed. As it were.

 

That's a lot of dog you got there.

 

Have you tried him on stock? If not, can you do as Linda suggested? I have a pup who's turning into a big, hard-charging individual, and I have to say I thought I'd never get her to lie down on command three feet from five sheep. But guess what she did today?

 

Now we'll see if it'll work the next time she tries to snatch songbirds out of the air at home.

 

I don't know if having control around stock will translate to control around other critters in our case, but it does make me feel less like hanging my head and moaning "what was I thinking when I got this dog." Which of course I've never done. Right.

 

Of course, you'd want to start him on a line. And wear gloves. Never mind how I know this.

[mbc1963]

I think, like some others, that the deer must have been injured beforehand, or at least injured itself during the chase. I walk in woods that are loaded with deer, and all the dogs will give chase, but I've never seen any of the quick and nimble dogs actually catch one. I've seen corpses left by coyotes, but even so, I think it's taken quite a few of the little buggers to bring down a deer. So... try not to feel too bad. (I know! I know! I'd be horrified if this had happened to me!)

 

Mary

[painted_ponies]

I think, like some others, that the deer must have been injured beforehand, or at least injured itself during the chase.

Mary

 

I agree, Mary. I think, since she heard the deer scream, that it probably injured itself during the chase, stepping into one of the gopher holes she mentioned, maybe.

[Pearse]

I'm apologize in advance because this is going to upset some people but I'm getting good and tired of hearing people advocate stock work as a way of fixing behavioral problems in Border Collies.

 

Livestock are not therapy aids or toys for people to use to fix their dogs' problems.

 

Border Collies do not require stockwork to be properly trained and well behaved.

 

Teaching a dog to herd sheep will not stop him from chasing deer, horses, chickens or children. Teaching him not to chase deer, horses, chickens or children will. If you aren't going to work the dog on stock, you're better off teaching it not to chase anything.

 

Teach your dog not to chase deer. Until you do, don't let him outside off a leash where there are deer around.

 

Pearse

[painted_ponies]

I'm apologize in advance because this is going to upset some people but I'm getting good and tired of hearing people advocate stock work as a way of fixing behavioral problems in Border Collies.

 

Livestock are not therapy aids or toys for people to use to fix their dogs' problems.

 

Border Collies do not require stockwork to be properly trained and well behaved.

 

Teaching a dog to herd sheep will not stop him from chasing deer, horses, chickens or children. Teaching him not to chase deer, horses, chickens or children will. If you aren't going to work the dog on stock, you're better off teaching it not to chase anything.

 

Teach your dog not to chase deer. Until you do, don't let him outside off a leash where there are deer around.

 

Pearse

 

Not upset at all. But I think you may have misunderstood which part of the OP's post (I, at least) was responding to. It was this part:

I am worried that I can never let him off leash, even on our own property, let alone on all the hikes we do. I am just so upset, I can't even look at him. I have never worked so hard with a dog before, and I still don't have the control that is needed for him....I am tired and burned out on dealing with his issues and needs.... When I let up just a hair, he does something stupid (I know, he is just being a dog...) I guess I feel trapped by him and the level of management he demands, I am such a dog person, I love him dearly, but I just don't know what to do next. ::::sigh::::

Don't you think working stock together might help this person's and this dog's relationship to one another?

 

What's wrong with "ovine-assisted therapy" anyway? People have been doing equine assisted therapy for years. Hasn't hurt anyone, horse or human, AFAIK. Or maybe that's a subject for another thread. As soon as I go feed the two little therapists staring holes in me through my window, I'll start one, so as not to derail the OP's topic.

[hoku's mum]

Thanks all for your thoughtful replies to my rather, er, despondent post. I am feeling much better today, less overwhelmed. In thinking through this whole event, I am sure that the deer was either ill or hurt during the chase... Hoku is fast and nimble, but no way could he catch a deer. There was no damage to the deers hind end (as would be if he dragged it down), it's front leg was snapped, so I really believe that he came upon it injured (most likely from the chase, true), and jumped on it. Distressing none the less. So he has not been 'free' since then. It's been the long line, or leash, or his pen. We have some friends with Lamas, and we are thinking of working with on the long line (outside the fence) on his recall and 'leave it' with them as stimulus. And setting him up with the deer (an easy thing since they always bed down by the pond) and the long line is a good idea, too.

 

And I am more at ease with my role in the whole thing. I realize, Pearse, that it is my responsibility to train him not to chase, and have been trying, obviously more work is needed. I am (and always have been) interested in working with him on stock. Personally, I don't see any harm in using stock to aid in training him. But am interested in why you think if I will not work stock seriously with him, then I should not work on his self control (something we work on with other things, too) using stock and a trainer? And I am all ears on different ideas on how to teach not to chase deer.

[Dixie_Girl]

The reason I suggested stock training, is simply because Hoku's natural reaction is going to be to chase them(unless like Skip and Jackson's first time, he's scared of them! ), But, with training comes control. I have seen Jackson so anxious to get to sheep, he has literally trembled! But, once he is in with them, his training kicks in, and there is control, well, MOST of the time! I only have a prob with the long line, as I stated. If something happens and she is not able to grab the long line, well, as I said, there is a lot of acres of woods to cover looking for a dog who may still be running or hung up on something. I would rather my dog was loose in the woods than hung up at the mercy of coyotes or wolves or whatever. I never said it would be a "one size, fits all" situation, just something to try. Prey drive is seldom "trained" out of the dog, more, the dog is trained to control those desires.

 

Good luck Kristen! Glad you are feeling better today!

[painted_ponies]

I realize, Pearse, that it is my responsibility to train him not to chase, and have been trying, obviously more work is needed. I am (and always have been) interested in working with him on stock. Personally, I don't see any harm in using stock to aid in training him. But am interested in why you think if I will not work stock seriously with him, then I should not work on his self control (something we work on with other things, too) using stock and a trainer?

 

I was wondering about that, too, and never got around to starting another thread. But since you asked, it won't be hi-jacking to let it stay here.

[kajarrel]

I'll tell you why I think that you shouldn't use stock to work on your dog's self control (when Pearse posted his message I thought "thank you!"). Because, as a long-time shepherd friend of mine said, "training is messy." Sheep don't have "fun" training your dog (and they sometimes even get hurt like the deer did), even if your dog and you do. There are so many other activities where you can occupy and "build a bond" with your dog. I can't see putting sheep through that if the final goal isn't developing a working (competent) sheepdog.

 

Kim

[Pearse]

Not upset at all. But I think you may have misunderstood which part of the OP's post (I, at least) was responding to. It was this part:

 

Don't you think working stock together might help this person's and this dog's relationship to one another?

 

I do, but not necessarily more so than doing obedience training, or agility, or going for long walks on the beach. I think there is a misperception that Border Collies need to herd livestock to live happy and fulfilled lives. I don't believe that is true.

 

What's wrong with "ovine-assisted therapy" anyway? People have been doing equine assisted therapy for years. Hasn't hurt anyone, horse or human, AFAIK. Or maybe that's a subject for another thread. As soon as I go feed the two little therapists staring holes in me through my window, I'll start one, so as not to derail the OP's topic.

 

That's comparing apples to oranges. In equine-assisted therapy, the humans aren't terrorizing the horses. It's also an attitudinal thing. The purpose of stockwork using dogs is to move stock from one place to another with the least amount of stress on the stock. People who approach stockdog training as therapy for the dog rather than with that goal in mind are less concerned with the effect on the stock and more about how their dog feels and what he is getting out of it, in my limited observation. In the end, that benefits neither stock nor dog, nor the practice of stockdog work as a whole.

 

 

Personally, I don't see any harm in using stock to aid in training him. But am interested in why you think if I will not work stock seriously with him, then I should not work on his self control (something we work on with other things, too) using stock and a trainer? And I am all ears on different ideas on how to teach not to chase deer.

 

Primarily for the reasons I mentioned above. Stockwork is about teaching the dog to move stock, not about teaching self-control. Secondly, I think using the term "self-control" in anthropomorphizing. I don't believe dogs think like that. If you teach the dog not to chase and grip sheep, he will not chase and grip sheep. He will still chase and pull down deer. It's not a character flaw, nor is it a lack of "self-control". Dogs' learning is all contextual. Thirdly, it won't work. If you want to stop him from chasing deer, you need to train him not to chase deer.

 

As for how, other people have made good suggestions. Put a long line on him (tie it around your waist if you don't think you can hold him). Walk out where there are deer. Tell him to "leave it". If he takes off, give him a recall just before he hits the end of the rope. If he stops, he's learning. If he doesn't, the rope will stop him. But before that, you should have a rock solid recall on him from a hundred yards or more when there are no deer around, and an emergency "lie down" too. If he's a smart dog, a couple of times will teach him not to chase deer, or at least to stop when he's told. If it doesn't, don't let him out where there are deer to be chased.

 

Keep in mind, that even once you have trained him not to chase deer when you are around, chances are if you aren't there to stop him, he may well take off after them so you may never be able to leave him loose where there are deer around. I have a dog that will stay where I put him for hours in a field full of sheep if I am doing chores. I would never leave him there if I was not there to keep an eye on him.

[kelpiegirl]

either a long line like Andrea suggest, or, and I know this won't go well, an electric collar- only for this. Deer can easily kill dogs. He could be trampled or impaled with antlers, and in the end, he may actually die. This has to stop today. Easier said than done. Try the long line first, set him up and teach him to not even look at deer. It is that important.

I am sorry it happened, but it has brought this issue as a number 1 priority, so if you work things right, you can make the future safe for your boy.

[NRhodes]

I was going to suggest the collar too. Let him know chasing deer is not a fun experience.

[Kyrasmom]

Unfortunately, and at the risk of sounding harsh when I don't mean to be, we all need to come to term with the reality that dogs are prey animals and sometimes there's not much we can do about it. My dogs don't touch our two Cockatoos who have free roam of the house (with supervision) but gleefully chase crows and critters on our property. They are even more gleeful when they catch something (the sight of two of them playing tug-o-war with a 5 ft rattlesnake is forever etched in my memory).

 

What you can do is continue to work on his recall, you can make sure that in the moment that his prey drive kicks in and he wants to chase another deer, you can call him to you. That's what I work hard at with my dogs, they need to listen to me regardless of how much fun chasing the crow or the squirrel or the cat is. I also agree that a good recall can be well established without involving stockwork, training a dog on stock, in my very uneducated opinion, should be about honing the dogs natural instinct to move/hold livestock for the handler, it shouldn't be about using stock to train a dog to be controllable.

 

And, getting back to my dogs and my cockatoos, even if they can learn to move stock and not chase it, it doesn't mean the deer won't trigger something different. You need to work on solid recalls for all of the different situations. It's a rough sight to digest and it's hard to not have an emotional reaction to it, but it doesn't mean your dog is bad, he's just a dog.

 

Maria

[hoku's mum]

I really see the point of not using stock for general training. I am sure it is quite stressful on the sheep with a green dog, and with other avenues available to us, I will continue our work with agility and general obedience work. Thanks for that input. The long line has been a great tool for us, and I think I will be using that alot in the near future, and try and set him up (has not worked the last day or two... may be the deer are wising up...) I agree that the stimulus is most likely very different with stock or deer, and I need to work on and proof his recall in as many different situations as I can. Thanks for all your thoughts, it is soooo helpful to come here and get so many thoughtful replies to a hard situation, I really do appreciate it.

[Caroline Reichard]

I trained dogs in Search and Rescue for a long time prior to buying the farm and saw many situations where deer chasing would have kept a dog from certifying and deploying. It can be a tough behavior to stop. I would never use a shock collar in any other situation, but I would for chasing game. It was the very best chance you had. And I would pay someone experienced in their use in this context to show you how to use it correctly. I don't believe that training on a line will generally teach a dog what he needs to know about this situation.

 

I don't know about where you live, but if you lived in my neighborhood the local hunters would shoot your dog the first time they saw it chasing game. Last month a trio of dogs chased deer up and down the creek that cuts through our property and eventually ended up in our sheep fields, chasing our sheep. You can guess how that story ended.

 

Not to be harsh, but you really shouldn't take your dog off-lead on walks, hikes, etc. w/out a reliable recall. You are just gambling.

[Northof49]

Ummm, what, you think the deer was maybe packing heat?

 

Kristen, I suggest you put him on a long line, invite the behaviour, let him get a head start and then flip him but good once he reaches the end of the line (run the other way if you need to). Then, once he picks himself up, call him back nicely. A couple of sessions like that and he'll be thinking twice before he blows you off on the recall again, deer or no deer. Yeah, it's harsh, but so is killing deer. Even if he never catches one again, chasing after one is bloody dangerous too.

 

A

 

And then make sure you take him in for his neck, because I guarantee you that your dog will have whiplash injury, both soft tissue injury and in his vertebrae if you do this.