MrLiquid Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 many of you already know that a kid down the street shot my dog with a bb gun which I've taken care of that. Now she's got issues! I took her to work this morning and I walked in the front instead of the side door. There were some people standing at the front and she freaked out, I thought she was going to rip my arm out trying to pull the leash. I'm planning on taking her to church Sunday so let the kids play with her to get her used to people again. Is this the correct method? Thanks Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC-Liz Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I'd take it slow, don't over stress her. Pushing her limit a little at a time is key. If you are going to introduce her to kids again, maybe only one kid at a time. Make sure the child stays put so the pup can sniff them. Maybe have him/her give your pup a treat so that she'll associate kids with good things. If she starts panting excessively, drooling, nervous peeing anything like that, get her our of that situation and into someplace safe. Make sure to not reinforce her being scared though by cuddling her. My Masi is nervous of kids too and I've found that those who ooo and ahh over her and won't leave her alone to have her space are the worst for her. Good luck! I really hope that kid gets whats coming to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrLiquid Posted January 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 damn, I did just that "Make sure to not reinforce her being scared though by cuddling her"..... Should I just ignore her? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC-Liz Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Yes and no. I tell Masi it's ok and encourage her to be brave, I go up and touch whatever it scaring her. It's hard to not want to pick her up and hug her when she's scared but for a dog, having their human be a strong leader is more important that having their human love on them in moments of weakness. Do something this, when she's being scared and wants to run, stop her, have her do an easy trick like sit or shake and give her a treat, this will refocus her. Then if it's people she's scared of walk up to them, with dog in tow, and maybe start a conversation. Have them ignore the dog so she can meet them on her terms. When she starts to sniff them praise her (don't get too excited) and treat her. Then maybe have the person you're talking to give the dog a treat. I know it may sound wrong but when Masi is being difficult and just won't meet someone I actually pick her up and put her in their arms. After that she'll keep going back to them for more and more lovin. I don't suggest this is a good method for everyone but it works for Masi. It also helps that she's only 30lbs and easy to hold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrLiquid Posted January 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I'll try that but I have one additional problem that makes it very hard to pick her up or do this at work. She pees when scared.... ;( maybe a doggy diaper? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I think the LAST thing you should do is throw her in with a bunch of kids since she got shot by a kid with a BB gun. First of all, it's not safe for the kids and second of all, I think it would be traumatic for the dog. I'd take it slow. Do you have one child that is good with dogs that your dog trusts? That last experience with children wasn't good. I agree with Liz and take it real slow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieDog Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I have to vehemently disagree with forcing a dog to interact with someone they are afraid of. My Maggie was severely undersocialized when I adopted her and forcing her to interact made things waaay worse. After I realized that the force method wasn't working, we switched to letting her go at her own pace and I trained a "go say hi" behavior: basically targeting anything she was afraid of but that I knew wouldn't hurt her. She's now a therapy dog and has been for 5 years now so it obviously worked. In fear issues I find "slow is fast". I would say you need to skip the Sunday meet and greet plan - it's liable to be way over your pup's threshold. Like BCLiz said, start with one or two people and work from there, anything more will likely be going too fast for her and you'll end up at square one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Well, this is one area where I do have some experience! My dog was very scared of all people when I got him - even to the point that he'd growl and bark if he saw a person approaching us on the sidewalk across the street from where we were! I'm not sure if he was really mistreated or just underexposed - he does still shy from quick movements, and people with sticks, so probably a combination of both. The thing I did was slow, gradual exposure with lots and lots of treats. In the very early days, I actually had to walk 10 to 15 feet behind groups of people and dogs - for some reason, Buddy felt safe if he was behind and could monitor movements and smells of other people. After being behind people for a while, he'd let me walk next to them. There was one really nice, big (=scary) guy who would walk ahead of us and just drop treats, never looking at Buddy and never initiating contact. After Buddy got over the general fear of humans, he still had to work on letting humans near him. Every person who showed interest in approaching my dog, I'd say, "He's very scared of people, but would you mind giving him a treat?" Most dog people seem to really want to help rehabilitate dogs, and so they're more than happy to treat away. A lot also have a good instinct for body language - getting down low, reaching to pat from underneath rather than above. My trainer told me to do some sing-song voice as strangers approached, so Buddy wouldn't read fear in my voice. I started doing happy-chatter, "Oh, look, it's our friend!" as people came towards us, so now Buddy seems to get that "friend" = person with treats, or at least =benign, unscary person. Sounds like your dog has good reason to be scared of people, but maybe it's not deep-rooted yet. I agree with having him do easy introductions, 1 or 2 people at a time, and keeping things calm and slow for a while. After 2 1/2 years, I still have to monitor Buddy's interactions in large crowds where I can't predict people's movements. But he's much, much better, and has a lot of people he really loves now. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC-Liz Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I don't think that method would be good to jump into. Masi had gotten passed her nervous peeing before I started doing that. I'd stick with having people ignore her until she's sniffed them. It'll be hard b/c she's a puppy and everyone wants to go crazy over a puppy but keeping the excitment level down would be good for her. Reintroduce her to calm adults first then teenagers then kids. Does she have another dog that she looks up to? What helped Masi at first was that she followed Rhea around and whenever Rhea would go get lovin (which is all the time), that meant it was alright for Masi to. Eventually she stepped out of Rhea's shadow. When she does do the nervous peeing don't discipline her. Just ignore her, be calm, clean it up and then have her do a trick or two to get a reward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 damn, I did just that "Make sure to not reinforce her being scared though by cuddling her"..... Should I just ignore her? The stance that a fearful dog should not be reassured is debatable! The only thing that worked to help Speedy over being scared was for me to sit on the floor and pet him and reassure him. The more I did it, the more confidence he gained. The "ignore him and make him tough it out" approach made things a lot worse with him. It made sense when I did some research into brain chemistry. If fear is caused by an involuntary chemical response in the brain to a given stimulus (this is something worth some personal research if you have a fearful dog), then fear cannot be a learned response that the dog can just conjure up to get attention at a later time. Therefore, "rewarding" a dog when he or she is experiencing fear will not cause the dog to "offer" fear as a behavior as he might offer a sit. Not all dogs like attention when they are fearful, but if any of my dogs are fearful at any time and they want attention, reassurance, or even to cuddle, I comply if possible. I've found among my dogs that it has reduced their tendency to be fearful of the same stimulus later. I also recommend taking it slow with your dog in this situation. I would work the dog up to being comfortable seeing children from the window outside while in the house before I would take him into a situation where there are a lot of children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I think you are excusing way to much on the kid with the BB gun. If she was bolting at the sight of a person with a raised gun like object I might go for it, but this sounds like pure undersocialization and perhaps a "fear period" on top of it. Most dogs forget about single, isolated scary incidences if they are otherwise socialized. It's us that dwells on the stuff and make it worse... So assuming (and we know what that spells) based on what you've told us, the pup hasn't met a lot of strangers other than friends of the family and a few car trips. And since dogs don't generalize well, the appearence of people in her normally empty yard is going to set of alarm bells for her. Heck, I've had socialized pups with more miles of people under their belts than good used cars nearly faint at this age because the wind blew our trash can by the window for the third time this week. MONSTER MONSTER! DID YOU SEE THE MONSTER IN THE YARD!!! You need to look at the whole picture. Between 8-12 weeks, the ideal by many trainers including myself is that the pup meet 100 strange people. Those people should included all colors, shapes, and sizes that people come in. I want the pup to meet at least half these people around the home, and the rest in various public situations. I've counted and sometimes my pups meet over 200 different people. By "meet" I mean the puppy has at least a positive interaction of brief petting or treat. I let some of these people, under my supervision help my puppy to practice sits, downs, recalls, and being examined and touched. If you haven't done this, then your pup is behind and you will have to, gently, catch up if you wish to have a dog with enough positive history with people to generalize that all people you allow near here are safe and good. Puppy classes, controlled interaction with many different people, positive attitude and reward are things to do and remember. Regarding the specific incident I would have laughed and upbeat said "oh look! GUESTS! my what a silly puppy! lets go meet them!" Then I would have put a leash on her to prevent her practicing barking and lunging, and interacted with the people myself until she relaxed. After that occurs (and it may not occur for several people if she's in a fear stage right now) then, and only then start letting them feed her treats without looking at her, working slowly up to true interaction. Most pups settle pretty quickly if you don't make a big deal of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Most pups settle pretty quickly if you don't make a big deal of it. I think this is a very important point, and gets to the heart of the "don't cuddle" philosophy. If you remain matter-of-fact while the pup is reacting the pup will soon figure out that if her leader isn't excited over the situation, then she probably doesn't need to react either. You don't have to ignore the pup entirely and make her "tough it out," but you do need to provide the appropriate leadership example that tells her, through your own voice and body language relative to whatever she's alarmed by, that all is okay. I'll even growl a correction at an older pup that starts alarm barking at people because in my view they also need to be corrected for inappropriate behavior, and since I travel a lot and stay in hotels sometimes I don't need youngsters who run at and bark at strangers (not good PR). J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC-Liz Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 The stance that a fearful dog should not be reassured is debatable! The only thing that worked to help Speedy over being scared was for me to sit on the floor and pet him and reassure him. The more I did it, the more confidence he gained. The "ignore him and make him tough it out" approach made things a lot worse with him. I agree, but too much cuddle can still be bad. Everyone told me to ignore Masi completely when we first go ther b/c she was so feaful but I've noticed that calming her down with the "it's ok" type thing has helped a lot. I also pick her up to get her out of a situation and back into a "safe place" when her kennel isn't around. You need to look at the whole picture. Between 8-12 weeks, the ideal by many trainers including myself is that the pup meet 100 strange people. Those people should included all colors, shapes, and sizes that people come in. I want the pup to meet at least half these people around the home, and the rest in various public situations. I've counted and sometimes my pups meet over 200 different people. By "meet" I mean the puppy has at least a positive interaction of brief petting or treat. I let some of these people, under my supervision help my puppy to practice sits, downs, recalls, and being examined and touched. If you haven't done this, then your pup is behind and you will have to, gently, catch up if you wish to have a dog with enough positive history with people to generalize that all people you allow near here are safe and good. Puppy classes, controlled interaction with many different people, positive attitude and reward are things to do and remember. I couldnl't agree more. Socialization is so imporant with any puppy and specifically BC's. When Rhea and Gunnar were puppies they met everyone they possibly could. Small, big, all races, loud, quiet, everyone and now they're the most lovable dogs ever. We think that a big part of why Masi is so nervous is because was was NEVER socialized. I mean NEVER. The only dog she knew was the other dog of the family and the only people she knew were the family. They two dogs were kept out in the barn and never interacted with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrLiquid Posted January 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 All your advice is greatly appreciated!!!!!!!!! I'm so glad I decided to ask for help on this. I'll skip the Sunday session and talk to the people here at work. I'll see if they don't mind me giving out treats so that when they see Saki they'll toss her one. I just need to be careful here, everyone is great and there's around 100 employees in my office but you never know if one of them goes and complains to the president. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.L. Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Willow was quite fearful of people when I first adopted her. I definitely didn't force her to greet or be near people. We took it very very slowly. We stayed away from children we didn't know, as they are quite unpredictable in their actions and quick movements. We used treats. I would also give strangers treats to give her and I would ask them to bend down and keep their hands low rather than reaching over her to pet her. If she didn't want to approach the stranger to take the treat I apologized and didn't force Willow to say hi. There were times when I would pet her and tell her in the happy voice that it was ok and she would then let somebody approach her as long as I was right there with her. She is much better now. I was able to take her to my classroom of 24 fourth graders for the day and she loved it. Of course I told my students how to act and how to approach her and they were all wonderful with her. There are still some people she won't approach at all, some she looks at me first and when I say it is ok she will approach them and others that she happily approaches on her own. We can go to crowded places and she doesn't try to run back out the door due to all the people. Take it slow and don't force anything. It may take some time, but it will be worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 If you take her to work with you, I'd enlist the help of 8 or 10 people to just stop by your office or desk throughout the day with a really yummy treat (string cheese, hot dog, bil-jack liver treats). Have them say hi to you and ignore Saki, except for dropping/tossing a treat near her. It only has to take 30 seconds or so. After a few days of this (as long as she seems pretty comfortable with it) have them say hi softly to her and glance over at her when tossing her the treat. After a few days of that, as long as she seems comfortable, have someone kneel down and and offer the treat to her from their hand so she has to come get it - just tell them not to stare or even really look at her at first as that can be very intimidating to a shy dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 I like Maralynn's suggestion. Pay close attention to the part that says the people dropping the treats should ignore the dog. Ask them to just drop a treat or two somewhere near the dog as they come in, then exchange a few words with you and leave. They should not initiate any interaction with the dog whatsoever. The pup will decide when it's ready to investigate these interesting, treat-bearing creatures. I also like the suggestion to sign up for a puppy class. If you get a decent trainer running the class, you will get a lot of useful ideas about how to improve your puppy's socialization. Also, in the class setting you will have a controlled environment where you can present the puppy with gradually increasing challenges. This is much, much harder to do out in the real world, where the best-intentioned of your friends and family often can't seem to follow your instructions about how to interact with the pup. Here's a useful link: Developmental Stages And here is advice on socialization from Ian Dunbar, the person who popularized the "meet 100 people before she is 3 months old" strategy: Teach Your Puppy to Like and Respect People Lots more on Dunbar's site if you search around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.