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Yeah, well, it does look better, but if you have a tie, the tie will be broken on outwork, so how you look getting to the post won't matter, unless the judge has allowed that approach to color his judging and therefore has hit your dog harder on the outwork than it deserved (which of course the judge shouldn't do)....

 

J.

 

I agree. But British judges, who tend to be obsessed by form, would point you if you walked to the post with your dog on leash (even if the dog was walking properly). I once read in the ISN magazine a quaotation from a prominent judge/handler who believed that walking with a dog on leash to the post indicated lack of control and so merited a point deduction straightaway. I always thought that the action (and the clock) started when you sent your dog. Dogs can walk to the post in all sorts of odd ways that do not materially affect their outrun.

Albion

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I agree. But British judges, who tend to be obsessed by form, would point you if you walked to the post with your dog on leash (even if the dog was walking properly). I once read in the ISN magazine a quaotation from a prominent judge/handler who believed that walking with a dog on leash to the post indicated lack of control and so merited a point deduction straightaway. I always thought that the action (and the clock) started when you sent your dog. Dogs can walk to the post in all sorts of odd ways that do not materially affect their outrun.

 

And I agree, however, in a lot of instances, we invite judges from across the pond to judge at some of the larger trials. Isnt this a fact that people should be aware of when trialing, that in fact some UK judges do, have that ideal, and will point people without thier even knowing it has been done or for what reason? If a UK judge did take points for what they considered a lack of control going to the post with a dog on lead, does he take the points from the outrun? If anyone asked about the point deduction, do you think they would be told about the dog on the lead, and being pointed for that? I understand that it is individual prefrence, also can be based on the dog itself, and yaddy yada, we've been through all the reasons in this thread already on that point, but for some judges, still it comes down to presentation, and what they do and do not have control over, as well as thier own particular styles of judging. And its always a good thing to know, as, placing or not placing, winning or not winning can come down to that one single point.

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Darci,

You could always ask in the handler's meeting I suppose. Since I don't make a living giving lessons, selling dogs, and certainly not by winning trials, I just take what I consider a logical approach to trialing. You could drive yourself crazy trying to figure out each individual judge's quirks so that you could be sure to run in a way *under that judge* that would give you the best chance of winning. I've seen the discussions over and over again by handlers at trials, especially with judges from the UK, trying to figure out where the judge is deducting and why, and of course they do this precisely because they want to win (nothing wrong with that). I personally just don't have the desire to spend eneergy and brain power on that. The down side to that is I'll probably never be a real contender, but then I don't trial for fame or glory anyway. I go to the post expecting to put down the best run my dog and I can do that day, without worrying if the judge is going to deduct points for walking to the post on a leash** or for my dog not going to 12 o'clock, even if the pressure is elsewhere, or whatever other particular quirk a judge might have. It's easier to just have in your mind what an ideal run is and then try to perform to that standard each time you go out and not worry about each individual judge's idiosyncracies, IMO.

 

**Note: I don't actually walk my open dogs to the post on leash, so it's really not a concern of mine. Since I view the lower classes as "training" classes and not an end unto themselves, if I need to take a youngster to the post on leash, then I don't care whether the judge would deduct points or not, because at that level trialing to me isn't about winning a class (though I certainly like to win), it's about preparing to move up to the next level. But we've already hashed all that out here. :rolleyes:

 

J.

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I agree. But British judges, who tend to be obsessed by form, would point you if you walked to the post with your dog on leash (even if the dog was walking properly). I once read in the ISN magazine a quaotation from a prominent judge/handler who believed that walking with a dog on leash to the post indicated lack of control and so merited a point deduction straightaway. I always thought that the action (and the clock) started when you sent your dog. Dogs can walk to the post in all sorts of odd ways that do not materially affect their outrun.

 

And I agree, however, in a lot of instances, we invite judges from across the pond to judge at some of the larger trials. Isnt this a fact that people should be aware of when trialing, that in fact some UK judges do, have that ideal, and will point people without thier even knowing it has been done or for what reason? If a UK judge did take points for what they considered a lack of control going to the post with a dog on lead, does he take the points from the outrun? If anyone asked about the point deduction, do you think they would be told about the dog on the lead, and being pointed for that? I understand that it is individual prefrence, also can be based on the dog itself, and yaddy yada, we've been through all the reasons in this thread already on that point, but for some judges, still it comes down to presentation, and what they do and do not have control over, as well as thier own particular styles of judging. And its always a good thing to know, as, placing or not placing, winning or not winning can come down to that one single point.

 

He takes it from the outrun. The judging problem goes beyond personal preferences; frequently they have an altogether unexpected standard and curious. For instance they tend to like to see the shed take place withthe sheep stationary, and will point you if, say, they are lining out and you bring the dog in as a hole opens, while the sheep are moving; or in the international shed, they like to see shed sheep stay in close proxmity to the sheep the dog is still working, when it is more workmanlike to have the shed sheep a bit further away. It's usually a matter of form. One could go on. The key thing, I think, with British judges is that you want one who has broad experience judging in the U.S. and therefore who knows our standards and most importantly our sheep, particularly in the West.

 

Albion

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