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When to trial?


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Hi, Bev!

 

I have a complex set of questions about training and trialing. Haley and I have been working together for 2 1/2 years. She's my first dog, and she's got a lot of potential, but we both still need training. She's about 4, and I am the only person to have ever handled her on sheep.

 

Her outrun tends to be a little flat about half the time, and she can be very pushy when fetching or driving. She lacks some confidence and does not have a lot of push to move sheep off a bucket of grain. On the other hand, she's very confident working in small spaces and with obstacles. Her outrun's gotten better over the past 6 months with a lot of work, but it's not as consistent as I want it to be.

 

We recently entered an AHBA HTAD I level at a trial nearby. We had trouble in the first run with the pen. She ran the sheep around the pen several times and gripped. I called the run (never done that before!), and was told by my primary instructor and the judge that I should not have because I had enough points to qualify since I made my 2 attempts at the obstacle. The reason I called it was I could tell we were not working as a team at that point, and I will not settle for anything less than that. Our second run was nicer, with less push, more give on her part, and even though we only got 4 of the 5 sheep through the first obstacle, I was much happier with our work together. We got the pen with minimal frustration on her part, did the mid-field hold, and exhausted the stock. Even though I know we could have done better, the second effort was significantly improved from the first. We even received complements about her work.

 

I told my second instructor about this, and was told that I should not be trialing her yet - that in effect, she needs a lot more work and I should not strive for anything less than perfection. Until I reach a point where she can do it right every time, we should just continue training and wait to trial.

 

This leaves me in a quandry - how does one know when it's time to start trialing, especially when hearing contradictory opinions from 2 people whose opinions I respect? For instance, I know I am not ready to move up to HTAD II - we need a much better drive and a more confident handler at the post! : ) I'm not about to try something I don't feel ready to do. But what about this circumstance, where 1 instructor and I felt I was ready enough to try this level, but someone else I train with, did not?

 

I don't plan to run out and try for the second leg for the title. We've got all winter to train on our skills before the next AHBA trial in our area. And to me, it's not about the title, it's about the relationship between me and my dog.

 

Would love to hear your input (and anyone else's) about this matter.

 

Thank you -

Liz K

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Not Bev, but wow, that is just sad. They thought getting a ribbon was more important that good stockmanship? :rolleyes: I think you did the right thing by retiring.

 

I did, too. Raising my arm and saying "Thank you!" was not as difficult as I thought it would be...I guess when you know it's right, it really is.

 

Liz, Dryden & Haley

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What is your goal with Haley? Do you want to be trialing in USBCHA down the line?

 

When I started trialling with my Tate (2.5yr old dog / training for 6mos before 1st trial) I was fairly confident in his abilities on stock. I soon learned how different everything is once you are actually competing and there's no way to get better at stuff like HTAD / HTD in my experiences other than competing.

 

I take my dogs to AHBA / AKC trials in order to get great experience on new sheep they've never seen before and work with different situations that the arena presents the dog (crowd factor, obstacles, etc). For example, I would have never known that Tate felt a lot of anxiety around a crowd when working the HTAD course until I took him to his first trial. Afterwards I made sure to take him to new places that had a bunch of people he didn't know in order to getting him to work over his anxiety for future trials.

 

About the grip - why do you think she gripped? Was she frustrated or were the sheep being exceptionally uncooperative? Obviously you want to keep the sheep's well being in mind but to me - if either of my dogs gripped sheep that were being uncooperative at the pen in order to get the job done I would welcome it. In the end, to me, it's all about getting the job done - now whether that scores points with the judges is up to them.

 

I don't think anything that you described in your experience to be a reason to halt your trialing experiences - if anything, those troubles you had will give you new points to iron out in future training sessions. :rolleyes:

 

 

I hope to trial USBCHA with her someday. I enjoy the AHBA trials because they are challenging in a different way but have some carry over to what happens in other venues - one still has to learn how to pen, sort, drive, etc...no matter where one trials!

 

I think Haley gripped because we could not get the sheeps' heads turned into the pen, and she was out of tricks. Staring at the sheep did not move them. Walking up on them did not move them. She would not lie down for me where I needed her to - I think she had lots of pressure from some fairly resilient sheep. So after running them around the pen a couple of times, she gripped. In the real world, a grip may be the catalyst needed to jump start the sheep, but I would rather she develop a little more power and keep the grip for the last "ace up the sleeve" scenario. It was an appropriate grip, and she did not hang on, but I don't need her turning into a bully...And it didn't work...the sheep turned 180 degrees and exited the mouth of the pen, taking her 4 friends with her...

 

We have a 4-day training session starting tomorrow. Lots of new points to work on! I'm excited to get started!

 

Liz, Dryden & Haley

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I start trialing my young dogs as soon as they have a reasonable outrun and stop and I think I can control them. I agree with you that there is a great deal that they can learn at dog trials that they can't learn at home.

 

Trialing dogs so relatively untrained means that I don't do very well with my young dogs the first few times I run them and I have to be, as you were, ready to walk off if I don't like what is happening. These early trials are not competitions for me they are training sessions. I go to them with no expectation of accomplishing anything besides teaching my dogs about trialing and all of the excitement that goes with performing for an audience.

 

I train my dogs to trial. Its what I do. If I enjoy running a dog and feel its performing as well as I expected or hoped I'm satisfied with our performance and will allow the dog to carry on. If I run into a difficult sheep or my dog gets confused and uncertain I call him off and quit.

 

I believe that this is what novice trials are for, training dog and handler, and should be used in this manner. As my dog advances my expectations for our performance rise commensurately. At all time I feel that dog trialing should be fun for dog and handler. If my young dog is performing so poorly I'm not having a good time I try to remember our recall whistle and quit. I don't always remember to walk off but I always wish I had.

 

Beverly

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I just want to remind everyone that on the "Ask an Expert" forum, only the expert (in this case, Bev) should post any answers to training questions--we don't want to muddy the waters. There are other forums, of course, where everyone who wants can jump in with help or suggestions. Thanks!

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