Supplements

[Shadows Mom]

I finally found a food that lets Shadow have nice formed droppings, no more loose ones! The problem is its a grocery store brand =( The only one that I've found that settles her insides is Pedigree Healthy Vitality. Should I be looking into extra vitamins or anything for her? She seems just as healthy as usual (she is still transitioning to eating 100% Pedigree food, still partially mixed with the Royal Canin), I don't think its a great food, but I've read the ingredients and they definately aren't the worst either. Just wondering if its balanced or if she needs additives.

 

Thanks folks!

[BustopherJones]

Unless someone who responds to this thread is a qualified veterinarian, you may wind up with personal preferences or conjecture. Your best bet is to consult your vet as to what supplements would be appropriate; remember that some supplements may have an adverse impact on a dog's digestive system, undoing what you have achieved thus far. There are commercially-available supplements on the market, but again a vet's input would be advisable.

[Lenajo]

I wouldn't depend on a vet to feed my dog, anymore than I'd depend on a pediatrician to tell me what to feed my kid. The vets I know tell me they got less than a 1 hour class in basic nutrition anyway, so they are flying just as blind as the rest of us sometimes....

 

That said, per vets...

 

..."dog food "nutrient levels" as listed on the bag are dependent on feeding the recommended serving size." My comment: Since most of us would have dogs the size of water buffalos if we fed how much the bag said....it is likely that the dog isn't getting the vitamins listed in adequete amounts.

 

Per another vet...this time W. Jean Dodds DVM...."I would switch foods at least twice a year, quarterly even better. Just because a food meets the "standards" isn't enough. One food could be high in <A> and the other in <B> yet still within standard. If fed for years, the dog could end up oversupplied in <A> or deficient in <B> for example. Its best to rotate within quality premium foods"

 

Per Doug Kneuvan DVM, holistic vet and author. "All dogs need a multivitamin, probiotics, digestive enzymes, and glucosomine. Other supplements as necessary" Dr Kneuvan has been featured in Clean Run and also spoke at the 2006 APDT conference.

[haleigh]

Qualified veterinarians, also, get about 6 hours of optional dog nutrition training, hosted by purina.

 

Don't go by what "settles in her stomach". Feed her high quality food, from a pet store. It depends how old she is. If she's under a year, it will take a bit of time for her digestive track to get used to food. Joy never had an issue because she never ate kibble aside from her short time at the breeders. All the bone firmed her up. When she gets loose from eating random crap, I give her pumpkin and her probitiocs (ProZyme). That, or I up her bone intake and add an extra chicken foot or two.

 

The only advice I have to give, is get her on the highest quality food possible. Don't think about whether it will settle in her stomach. Pick ingredients like chicken or lamb, nothing weird like fish or bison. Get food with the least amount of veggies, fillers, beet pulp, grains etc. possible. Her digestive track WILL even out with time. If it's unbearable, then mix it half with some good food (think solid gold, blue buffalo, authority, evo) with the pedigree. This way she gets good vitamins, but firmer stools.

 

For vitamins, some of the best ones you can get are called Nuvet Plus. Natural ingredients, and next to none preservatives.

 

Hope this helps!

[Shadows Mom]

The high quality foods I can buy here give her such bad diarrhea that theres no way she can go all day without going out (I'm away in classes 7-7 Mon-Fri). Her energy and alertness are 1000X better on the store brand, and her fur is finally growing back in (from when she was spayed, her shaved belly wasn't growing in at all). All the vets do is try to push the hugely expensive brands they sell in their offices >=[ The other problem with the high quality food is financial, I'm an unemployed student and $160 a month for dog food has drained away my savings account to about $30 (she goes through two $80 bags a month). My choices here are Royal Canin (what she was on), Blue Seal, or grocery store brands. Blue Seal's ingredient lists start of with corn, oats, wheat, and soy. The Pedigree is chicken, chicken meal, and meat byproduct (I don't like the meat byproduct part, but I like it more than grains =P) I also thought of maybe trying to Iams holistic, but am iffy about Iams after last years pet foods ordeal. Maybe I'll keep her on the mixed Canin- Pedigree diet, if I can talk the parents into helping me pay for it =/ Damned money *shakes fist*

 

 

I'm looking for opinions Bustopher =) I know its up to me in the end, but I like hearing how other people see the situation, its helped loads in the past =D

[Root Beer]

Personally, if the mixed store brand/Royal Canin works, I would try to stick with that over feeding just the store brand.

 

Another thing I would do is throw some fresh raw meat into the bowl several times a week, if you can get it.

 

I know that's controversial, but it works out well for the two of my dogs that I can't afford to raw feed wholesale.

[Shetlander]

The high quality foods I can buy here give her such bad diarrhea that theres no way she can go all day without going out (I'm away in classes 7-7 Mon-Fri). Her energy and alertness are 1000X better on the store brand, and her fur is finally growing back in (from when she was spayed, her shaved belly wasn't growing in at all).

 

Personally, I go by how the dog is responding to the food not what a vet or anyone else insists is best. If this food is what your dog does best on, then you may want to get a good multivitamin and maybe some Omega 3 and call it good.

[BustopherJones]

FYI only, much has been said here about quality dog foods. To resurrect an old topic, Merck some time ago came out with a dog food rating system; the following were their findings.

 

How to grade your dog's food:

Start with a grade of 100:

1) For every listing of "by-product", subtract 10 points

2) For every non-specific animal source ("meat" or "poultry", meat, meal or fat) reference, subtract 10 points

3) If the food contains BHA, BHT, or ethoxyquin, subtract 10 points

4) For every grain "mill run" or non-specific grain source, subtract 5 points

5) If the same grain ingredient is used 2 or more times in the first five ingredients ( i.e. "ground brown rice", "brewer’s rice", "rice flour" are all the same grain), subtract 5 points

6) If the protein sources are not meat meal and there are less than 2 meats in the top 3 ingredients, subtract 3 points

7) If it contains any artificial colorants, subtract 3 points

8 ) If it contains ground corn or whole grain corn, subtract 3 points

9) If corn is listed in the top 5 ingredients, subtract 2 more points

10) If the food contains any animal fat other than fish oil, subtract 2 points

11) If lamb is the only animal protein source (unless your dog is allergic to other protein sources), subtract 2 points

12) If it contains soy or soybeans, subtract 2 points

13) If it contains wheat (unless you know that your dog isn’t allergic to wheat), subtract 2 points

14) If it contains beef (unless you know that your dog isn’t allergic to beef), subtract 1 point

15) If it contains salt, subtract 1 point

Extra Credit:

1) If any of the meat sources are organic, add 5 points

2) If the food is endorsed by any major breed group or nutritionist, add 5 points

3) If the food is baked not extruded, add 5 points

4) If the food contains probiotics, add 3 points

5) If the food contains fruit, add 3 points

6) If the food contains vegetables (NOT corn or other grains), add 3 points

7) If the animal sources are hormone-free and antibiotic-free, add 2 points

8 ) If the food contains barley, add 2 points

9) If the food contains flax seed oil (not just the seeds), add 2 points

10) If the food contains oats or oatmeal, add 1 point

11) If the food contains sunflower oil, add 1 point

12) For every different specific animal protein source (other than the first one; count "chicken" and "chicken meal" as only one protein source, but "chicken" and "" as 2 different sources), add 1 point

13) If it contains glucosamine and chondroitin, add 1 point

14) If the vegetables have been tested for pesticides and are pesticide-free, add 1 point

94-100+ = A; 86-93 = B; 78-85 = C; 70-77 = D; <70 = F

 

Dog Food scores:

Alpo Prime Cuts / Score 81 C

Artemis Large/Medium Breed Puppy / Score 114 A+

Authority Harvest Baked / Score 116 A+

Authority Harvest Baked Less Active / Score 93 B

Beowulf Back to Basics / Score 101 A+

Bil-Jac Select / Score 68 F

Blackwood 3000 Lamb and Rice / Score 83 C

Blue Buffalo Chicken and Rice / Score 106 A+

Burns Chicken and Brown Rice / Score 107 A+

Canidae / Score 112 A+

Chicken Soup Senior / Score 115 A+

Diamond Maintenance / Score 64 F

Diamond Lamb Meal & Rice / Score 92 B

Diamond Large Breed 60+ Formula / Score 99 A

Diamond Performance / Score 85 C

Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Ultra Premium / Score 122 A+

Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Venison and Brown Rice / Score 106 A+

Dick Van Patten's Duck and Potato / Score 106 A+

EaglePack Holistic / Score 102 A+

Eukanuba Adult / Score 81 C

Eukanuba Puppy / Score 79 C

Flint River Senior / Score 101 A+

Foundations / Score 106 A+

Hund-n-Flocken Adult Dog (lamb) by Solid Gold / Score 93 B

Iams Lamb Meal & Rice Formula Premium / Score 73 D

Innova Dog / Score 114 A+

Innova Evo / Score 114 A+

Innova Large Breed Puppy / Score 122 A+

Kirkland Signature Chicken, Rice, and Vegetables / Score 110 A+

Member's Mark Chicken and Rice / Score 84 C

Merrick Wilderness Blend / Score 127 A+

Nature's Recipe / Score 100 A

Nature's Recipe Healthy Skin Venison and Rice / Score 116 A+

Nature's Variety Raw Instinct / Score 122 A+

Nutra Nuggets Super Premium Lamb Meal and Rice / Score 81 C

Nutrience Junior Medium Breed Puppy / Score 101 A+

Nutrisource Lamb and Rice / Score 87 B

Nutro Max Adult / Score 93 B

Nutro Natural Choice Lamb and Rice / Score 98 A

Nutro Natural Choice Large Breed Puppy / Score 87 B

Nutro Natural Choice Puppy Wheat Free / Score 86 B

Nutro Natural Choice Senior / Score 95 A

Nutro Ultra Adult / Score 104 A+

Pet Gold Adult with Lamb & Rice / Score 23 F

Premium Edge Chicken, Rice and Vegetables Adult Dry / Score 109 A+

Pro Nature Puppy / Score 80 C

Pro Plan Sensitive Stomach / Score 94 A

Purina Beneful / Score 17 F

Purina Dog / Score 62 F

Purina Come-n-Get It / Score 16 F

Purina One Large Breed Puppy / Score 62 F

Royal Canin Boxer / Score 103 A+

Royal Canin Bulldog / Score 100 A+

Royal Canin Natural Blend Adult / Score 106 A+

Science Diet Advanced Protein Senior 7+ / Score 63 F

Science Diet for Large Breed Puppies / Score 69 F

Sensible Choice Chicken and Rice / Score 97 A

Solid Gold / Score 99 A

Summit / Score 99 A

Timberwolf Organics Wild & Natural Dry / Score 120 A+

Wellness Super5 Mix Chicken / Score 110 A+

Wolfking Adult Dog (bison) by Solid Gold / Score 97 A

 

Matthew Coriaty

Merck & Co.

Environmental Monitoring

215.993.0543

 

Sidebar: My vet recommends Innova and Merrick, but as you can see there are many other excellent foods in this listing. Canidae seems to be particularly popular amongst many participants on this board.

[NRhodes]

I have to agree with Liz, go by how your dog is doing on the feed. I'm not sure that I would particularly add vitamins either. I would give her some raw meat, bones, or fat as supplement.

 

How much are you feeding her? Is she on a regular monthly worming schedule? Is she being given the right amount of wormer for her weight? Other things, even stress, could be causing the loose stool besides the type of feed. Ten hours every day is a long time for a dog to be cooped up and not be able to relieve themself. I would suggest figuring out a moment when you can run home and let her out sometime in the middle of the day. For instance, pack a lunch or hit a drive through and get something you can eat while driving to help you save time and eat on the way to or from the house.

[Lenajo]

If the dog gets sick on the food after a reasonable adjustment period it's not right for the dog. It might be later, but not now.

 

A gentle way to offer more fiber to a dog like this is to start offering steamed vegetables in small amounts to the food. Carrots, broccoli, cauliflower, even cabbage. Slowly increase the variety and the rawness (must be pureed if raw) as she tolerates it. Replace the kibble with cooked sweet potatos or pumpkin at times. Go slow - it's easier on you, the dog, and your carpet. The last thing I would add is bones- and then given her history I would start cooked meat and work up to raw meat, then raw meaty bones as a seperate meal not mixed with the kibble. In would not, given this dogs history as stated, add fat because its obvious she has issues with digestion right now.

 

If she does ok on the food now, I'd just add variety as above and not seek another kibble. Another kibble that's not supposed to be on the "good" list is Purina ONE...yet I see a lot of Border Collies doing very very well on it.

 

Digestive enzymes are also something to consider.

 

I do agree that 10 hours is too long on a regular basis. If there are no options, then you do what you must. But I bet you can find some. How much exercise is she getting? Is it good exercise (steady and sensible) or frantic "tire her out so we can get back to studying". Can you tell I've been a student? LOL

 

Monthly deworming is a recipe for parasite resistance. I've never agreed with Intraceptor or Heartguard Plus used for that reason. It is the opposite of what you are taught to do as a farmer with livestock currently. We know very well the route that resistance takes us.

[PSmitty]

In regards to the grading system, here's an interesting take on it:

 

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=grading_kibble

[Shetlander]

These are some, but certainly not all, of the premium, organic kibbles I have tried:

 

Wellness Super5 Mix Chicken / Score 110 A+

Nutro Ultra Adult / Score 104 A+

Nature's Variety Raw Instinct / Score 122 A+

EaglePack Holistic / Score 102 A+

Canidae / Score 112 A+

Chicken Soup Senior / Score 115 A+

 

I've carefully read Whole Dog Journal's annual ratings and chosen kibbles accordingly. I think it is important to choose the highest quality food that works for your particular dog. As great as the above brands are, they did not work for Quinn or my Lhasa. The Lhasa is doing great on Azmira (highly rated by WDJ). That didn't work for Quinn with his complex IBD issues. My Sheltie is doing great on Prescription Ultra UD <GASP> rated highly pretty much only by vets. That didn't work for Quinn either. I've reached the conclusion that what works for Quinn is more homemade fare like Sojo's which is heavy on the oatmeal and at first glance wouldn’t appear to be a great diet (though I think WDJ likes it). Sojo's appears to offer the roughage he needs the way he needs it. Raw works great for some dogs. Not for others. Even Quinn's holistic vet has said she does not feel he can currently handle raw meat and definitely not bones. She has recommended a diet like Sojo's for him and feels Sojo's will be fine.

 

I think it is important to educate ourselves and as I said choose the best food we can, but in the end I do think we need also listen to what the dog has to "say" about the food. If it agrees with the dog's system and he is looking and acting healthy, that is a very important piece of information, whether it matches up with what is considered premium and organic or not.

 

Believe me, the last thing I wanted was to end up with three dogs on three different diets, one of them prepared at home. I'd love to have them all the same great kibble. It's that last piece of information -- how each particular dog does on each particular diet -- that is driving the current state of affairs in my kitchen.

[JohnLloydJones]

In regards to the grading system, here's an interesting take on it:

 

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=grading_kibble

 

The points mentioned are good, but really this grading system is only useful as a rough rule of thumb. The As and the Bs do appear to be better than the Fs, but within a group (or even between adjacent groups) it isn't necessarily very helpful.

 

For what it's worth, Senneca seems to be doing much better since I added digestive enzymes to her diet. She also gets a dollop of plain yoghurt every day.

[OffTopic]

Shadow's Mom, I know how hard it is to find what works for your dog, especially a dog with a sensitive stomach.

 

I tried for years....13 to be exact....to find the "right" food that wouldn't give my Max diarrhea. Chicken protein seemed to set him off, as did corn and wheat.

I'd settled on the Blackwood lamb and rice rotated with their catfish and potato food, which helped, but didn't get rid of the problem completely. The vet recommended adding cottage cheese (I guess for the calcium), which I did. Again, better, but not solved.

So after reading about the miracles of pumpkin and yogurt on this board and others, I started adding a little of each to his canned food (he gets a little premium canned food on top of his kibble every meal).

A month of doing that and not one instance of diarrhea!

So, just to see if those things really were making the difference, I got a small bag of a different food with chicken as the main protein....and mixed that with his regular kibble.

Still no diarrhea. I'm sold! He obviously needed more fiber and some healthy bacteria in his system.

 

I do think the premium foods are a better choice if you can afford them and if they are readily available, but by all means use what works for your dog. If the Purina works and you see that Shadow is thriving on it long term, then I wouldn't worry about it. Besides, if you're going to spend extra money on supplements you're really not going to be saving much money buying the cheaper dog food, right?

[Kayleegator]

FYI only, much has been said here about quality dog foods. To resurrect an old topic, Merck some time ago came out with a dog food rating system; the following were their findings.

 

How to grade your dog's food:

 

I found this to be very interesting. I am feeding kibble, and still shopping for the brand that my dog will eat, which agrees with her stomach. If her bowels are still not right after a 5-lb bag, I go on to the next brand. She will not touch Nutro products, no matter how hungry she is.

 

I live an hour's drive from the nearest pet food store. If I must fall back on grocery store brands, I am feeding Purina One Lamb and Rice, which scores an 81 on this system: not great, but far, far better than anything else available on the same shelf.

[pammyd]

The only A stuff on that list that I have seen here is Burns (which I am considering)

Ben is VV fussy - now whatever I mix on his James Wellbeloved he just licks that off and spits out the kibble (and there is still 1/2 a bag left) if I just leave it down and dont give him anything else he will eat a little bit every few days (there is nothing wrong with him 0 been to vet)

 

Anyone heard of these people??

CSJ

I have mailed her to see if they have smaller than 15Kg bags - at Bens current rate of eating that would take forever!!

[Shadows Mom]

I think I only have access to MAYBE 4 or 5 of the foods on that huge points list =/ Less that 10 brands available n my province... hopefully I can get her very happy on something for now and try better foods when I move somewhere that I can get them.

 

Shes eats 3 cups of kibble a day and gets several hours of play each evening, if I can keep her awake that long LOL, she LOVES to sleep! She snacks on carrots, buddy biscuits and rawhide bones and gets sentinel every months (12 months a year). She also gets lots of exercise and socallization at her puppy classes on Saturdays with agility starting in the new year. Gladly my schedule won't have me gone for such long hours next semester.

 

She was eating royal canin medium breed adult for a couple months and her stool just stayed loose the entire time, within 2 meals of mixing it wth the pedegree it firmed up to a nice normal state. Think I'll see if I can get some decent priced meat for her.. whats the best kind to introduce her to raw with? Turkey wings or legs maybe? They're pretty cheap here, I could afford those every once in a while.

 

Thanks for the input folks =) Appreciate it!

[Shadows Mom]

I found a local place that sells Canidae! Trying to get ahold of them to see if they can get in the chicken and rice one, and how much it is. Hopefully they can get it and it won't cost me an arm and a leg!

[NRhodes]

Monthly deworming is a recipe for parasite resistance. I've never agreed with Intraceptor or Heartguard Plus used for that reason. It is the opposite of what you are taught to do as a farmer with livestock currently. We know very well the route that resistance takes us.

 

I agree and my deworming schedule is not a monthly one but it is what the vets around here recommend and not knowing much about the original poster's practices in deworming figured it was worth mentioning. Also, my understanding is this is a young dog, so maybe it's possible she's been on a regular schedule but is still being given the same dose of dewormer she was as a smaller pup and therefore not effectivly being dewormed. The dog might also not be responding to dewormer for another reason- maybe she has tapeworms which the dewormer may not cover? Lots of things to think about.

 

Shadow's Mom, you mention she loves to sleep which kind of surprises me... if she's been crated all day and still wants to sleep rather than play in the evening, might be something to worry over. Maybe she has some other problem unrelated to the stomach?

[Shadows Mom]

Nah, was told she'd be very calm before I got her. Just how she is, loves to snuggle and sleep, but when its play time boy is she feisty!

 

She's been on Sentinel since I got her, never showed any problems with it (thats fleas, ticks, worms, and heartworm preventative all in one handy beef flavored tablet), she's also up to date on all of her shots and got a clean bill of health from the vet less than a month ago. She's gotten a lot more active since I started mixing the food tho, and hasn't had to have pumpkin in a few weeks (which is good, she hates it!)

 

The Canidae is $70 a bag, so only $10 less than the Royal Canin... the feed store is going to see what it would cost to bring me in Evo, but their markup is massive! Arg... I hate money =/ And being in the middle of nowhere. Think I'll ask Shadow's agility trainer what she feeds her dogs, I know 90% of the people around here feed Dog Chow, but the ingredients are horrid! Thats why I chose the Pedigree, it has better ingredients than 3/4 the stuff at the feed shop which is "holistic / organic" food. I did price out a raw diet for her, and with the prices here it would be about $50 a week meat and veggies are very expensive here (like $17 for 3 small chicken breasts).

 

The feed store is bringing me in some supplements for her, they should be in in a week or two... now if she'll actually take em LOL (they're pill form)

[NRhodes]

Does the feed store carry Sportsmans or anything like that? Heck, I just feed Sportsman's, it can be got at about any feed supply store. Either the blue bag which is the highest fat/protien, or the orange bag which is the lowest, depending on the dog. Then I may add meat and bones (generally deer or cow, or chicken but not so much lately since I've killed off about all the local feral population and I'm sure not buying replacements. Chickens make good chew toys also, pups love pulling feathers ), calf milk replacer, or whatever if I feel the dog needs something a little 'extra'. They have a green bag which is in between. The blue bag costs me like $15 for a 50lb bag, the orange is $12. People get too caught up in all these fancy high dollar feeds. Sometimes the bigger price doesn't make it better

[Shadows Mom]

Nope, Royal Canin, Blue Seal and some Natura or something thats pretty much all grains. The other feed store is for sale and doesn't really have anything right now, but there is a farm feed store that we found carries Canidae. Going to go check it out after this storm! (Been storming here for 3 or 4 days.. yay winter!) Its all very expensive here due to the MASSIVE border taxes the US tosses on it, plus its all delivered by long haul truck and they have to pay a ton just to get out of our province (we have a HUGE bridge, and they charge an arm, leg and testicle to let you go across it). Even grocery store brands are ~$30 for 20lbs. $80 for a 20 lb bag is the average price for decent food. The farm feed store is usually pretty cheap, so hopefully I'll be able to try Canidae, the pedigree is actually causing very very bad breath for Shadow, and OMG bad gas for Penny. The labs were so easy, they could digest anything!

[Shetlander]

Its all very expensive here due to the MASSIVE border taxes the US tosses on it, plus its all delivered by long haul truck and they have to pay a ton just to get out of our province (we have a HUGE bridge, and they charge an arm, leg and testicle to let you go across it). Even grocery store brands are ~$30 for 20lbs. $80 for a 20 lb bag is the average price for decent food.

 

Good grief! Have you considered homemade that isn't raw? It may well be cheaper.

[NRhodes]

Wow, yeah, that's quite high. You might look into Liz's suggestion.

Doesn't your farm feed store have CA made dog food that would be more reasonable?

[Shadows Mom]

The farm feed store sells Canidae $35 for 20 lbs. I got a 10lb bag of all life stages to try her on, see how she likes it and how it likes her. I find most of the other "natural" dog foods available here are grain based. Hopefully the Canidae will work out =D