1sheepdoggal Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 I have 3 pups, ranging in age from 14 months, 6 months and 7 months old. All are ready to start, ( in one way or another) but I am having my older dogs get a hand ful of my sheep pretty well dogged before I take the younger ones out on them. I've been working them ( the sheep) with the older dogs for about 2 weeks now and things seem to be falling into place. At least the sheep are coming to me instead of hugging the fence or running every which way when the dog comes on the field. In the process of getting these sheep gentler for the pups, I had been keeping the pups locked in their kennels while working the older dogs. The racket they made was so much, I could hardly hear myself think. I remembered some one once said, to let the pups watch the older dogs work, so the last few days, Ive been letting the pups out to run the fence line while I work the older dogs. ( Ive heard doing that is a no no, but havent heard as to yet why, so Im sure some one will enlighten me soon enough) All, are very much wanting to get in there and work, and I have been seeing some neat stuff happening when they are on the outside of the field. I am seeing them start to balance the sheep to me, even if it means running the length of or all the way around the feild. (This particular field is 2 fenced acres) Ive seen them starting to stop on balance, and creep up and lye down when about 15 feet off the sheep. I guess really, just a lot of what comes natural to them even being so young. But Im also seeing really great focus and drive to stay working. What Im wondering, is when folks say to allow young dogs to watch older dogs working.( and I do understand that means to tie them, or have some one hold them on a leash) What is the purpose? What do we wish to accomplish by doing this? Is it strictly to get a pup turned on? Or are we hoping that they will learn some thing, like monkey see monkey do? If Im gonna let them out there, I feel as if I should know what to look for, to encourage, discourage, ignore, and what are the ramifications of allowing them to do this in so far as possibly starting bad habits before they even get out onto the field. Darci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 I would only let a young dog/pup watch enough to see if it was starting to show an interest. I actually don't want my young dogs doing a lot of watching when I work other dogs. They are excitable enough as it is without encouraging them to get into a frenzy which they typically will doing a lot of watching. Because we have sheep at our house, the pups grow up seeing sheep. I don't actually make a point of having them watch sheep --infact I discourage it (I don't scold them or anything, just call them away if they're staring too much and try to focus them on something else). I put them up and out of sight wile I'm working other dogs. By having them out while you're working other dogs they can be learning to interact in their own way with the sheep without you as part of the picture. I don't really think they learn anything from watching other than getting into a frenzy or possibly developing too much eye depending on the type of dog you have. If you have a dog showing little to no interest, it would be a different story. That type of dog could benefit from watching as a way to develop interest. Renee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 ^^What she said. Excellent comments, Renee. The only time I'd tie an untrained youngster to the fence is to see if it would turn on (if it had shown a lack of interest up to that point). Like Renee, I discourage my youngsters (and adults) from running the fenceline around the pastures or working the sheep from the wrong side of the fence. When I'm working one youngster, the others are in crates in the van where they can't see what's going on. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Yep, Renee summed up exactly what i'd say too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 example: I have a young pup who this past summer would get out on occasion when she shouldn't be. I also had another young dog just starting in training at that time. The 2 of them would make a break and head down to the lean to to see what was going on. They would end up circling the lean to if there was any action going on inside of the fence (not working but sheep movement or reaction of the sheep to the 2 escapees). I wasn't always aware of the problem and when I figured out what was going on put a stop to it. Fast forward to now, the young dog is gone, the pup is in training. If I finish up training and want her to go in the lean to with me, her first responce is to run and circle the fence. That behavior is diminishing but it's taking some work on my part. That's just one example of what can happen if left to work sheep on thier own. Not a good idea in my mind! I do use a more experienced dog to help me train the young one. He keeps sheep from getting away from us. I train in an unfenced area so sheep can sometimes get away or at least try to. He's there to make sure that doesn't happen. She is watching him when that happens but really more intrested in what she's doing than what he's doing. I have seen her take cues from him and go with him to gather sheep that are trying to head for the hills, she bends out nicely with him instead of trying to turn it into a chase. But that also comes with her experience growing. This has been one of the nicest pups I've had the pleasure of starting. The escapes of the sheep are few and far between, she's got some of the nicest balance I've seen. Now to let it come out naturaly and not push on her to hard! Kristen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 So, if I have a youngster that I'm hoping will show interest, I see the consensus is to let him sit outside the fence and watch another dog work. Does it matter how far along the dog working is? I know this is a stupid question, but I have a lesson with my older dog Saturday. This will be his 7th lesson, I think, so he's not very far along, but does it matter to the observer dog? Is it just seeing the dog and the sheep in there together? I'd like to take the youngster along, since he's seen sheep twice with little/no interest. (Some interest the first time, but bad experience with the trainer and no interest at all the second time) I realize this may or may not spark interest, I'm just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 It doesn't really matter how far along the dog is. Take the youngster along and let him watch and it might spark interest. Watch the youngster though to make sure it doesn't actually stress him out and turn him off to watch. Just read his reactions and decide if he should watch or not based on what he seems to be thinking. If you have a softer, unsure dog watching another dog that's getting corrected or there's yelling or whatever, it might make the unsure dog quite sure he doesn't want to work! Just use your best judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted October 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Thank you all for your thoughtful answers. I had thought I might want to rephrase the question, as in answering it, some might think that it made them look as if they did the same thing in my using of the word "we". I did not mean in anyway to insinuate, or imply that anyone else had done the same thing I had. Upon re-reading the post, I think I could have done a better job at wording it. But it looks like you all caught the drift of the questions anyway, and I appreciate that. It looks like crating them inside is whats in the cards for these pups as they have already shown me that they are quite capable of jumping a 6 foot kennel, and leaving them in it, chaining them in or not, gives me cause to want to drag out a few bark collars. Even though they cant see the dog working the sheep, they know whats going on and the barking can be deafining.Your answers have helped to improve the quality of their training, in and out of the field. Because that really was the question, was why do we allow a pup to watch an older dog work, and why should you not allow one to run the fence line. They will be in lock down while working the other dogs from now on seeing as there is definitly no lack of interest with these guys. Im glad you mentioned having your older dog there, as to not loose the sheep. Would that work just as well, when putting the pups on sheep, ( in a fenced field) to have the older dog in there so that when the pup starts to loose/ scatter the sheep, the older dog can keep them together, or would the learning experience for the pups be lost if the older dog always kept the sheep together for them in their begining training? I had thought about doing that, but havent had them out with the sheep in the fence since they were around 5 months old just to see if they had interest and to see how they handled the sheep. Thanks again, maybe in future posts, for me, less would be more?! Darci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Darci, I routinely used one of my trained dogs to help keep the sheep where I needed them while starting the youngsters. The key is to have a trained dog who understands the job and doesn't interfere while the pup is working but will get up and contain the sheep when they try to break away and outrun the pup. The last thing you want is for your older dog to "join in the fun" if the pup is being naughty. With Lark, I actually started her outruns by sending her out with Twist (I know several "old hands" that will start youngsters this way). But that didn't work for Twist's pups, since they would let mom do that nice wide outrun while they ran straight up the middle doing the bowling ball thing. Likewise, Twist is great in my current pasture, which has a corner to a draw around which the sheep will race, given the chance, for holding that side. And for stopping and standing there the rest of the time. Kat, on the other hand, will hold the sheep on the field, but also is inclined to join in when I do something like shush a youngster. Consequently, I don't use Kat much for that kind of work (unless there's two of us out there, then one person can work the older dog as needed while the other works the pup, which allows greater control on the older dog). So really it depends on whether your trained dog is able to do the job you need of it effectively without also interfering in the pup's training session. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Thanks, Robin! I'll do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted October 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 I used her a few times for that purpose several years ago, but I wasnt working alone, and was able to keep her reminded that she needed to stay put, and she did alright, but she can be a bit of a workaholic and doesnt like to hang about stopped for too long. and if I shushed the pups, she be right in the thick of things. She really doesnt like what she percieves to be any other dog working "her" sheep. I think I 'll let them pups learn to keep the sheep together on their own. Their fenced, so its not like their going anywhere. Thanks, Darci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesney's Girl Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 It looks like crating them inside is whats in the cards for these pups as they have already shown me that they are quite capable of jumping a 6 foot kennel, and leaving them in it, chaining them in or not, gives me cause to want to drag out a few bark collars. Even though they cant see the dog working the sheep, they know whats going on and the barking can be deafining.Your answers have helped to improve the quality of their training, in and out of the field. With the short time I have been working Chesney I appreciated the whole watching the other dogs work, but it was easier for me than it sounds like it would be for you, as I didn't have to work the dog while Chesney was watching. It taught him that he needed to be patient and that if he wasn't calm then he didn't get to work. I have seen Chesney do some things that he's never tried before after watching another dog do it. I also know its also helped him gain confidence by working with other dogs and seeing that he really can push stubborn/hard stock when he needs to. But mostly I have appreciated the learning of patients and calmness. Just thought I would throw in what I've noticed what my dog has learned (or seemed to learn) from watching other dogs work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted October 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 I wish mine could show a little patience, though the lack of it is what got them let out to start with, (that, and the insessive barking) they, as another poster pointed out get very excieted and crazy, running this way and that. Its only after they have run them selves down a bit that they accually start to pay attention to the sheep and instinct starts to take over. I took the now 14 month old to the Threshers Reunion with me this past summer, she was about 9 months then, they had some folks doing a BC demo there. She reacted much the same, in that she needed quite a bit of help keeping herself quiet and still while simply watching the demo sitting with me. I think they are all a bit high drive, and sitting on the side lines isnt their cup of tea. I can only hope through ageing and training that they learn to become a bit more patient,...... and quiet. Darci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 Hey Darci, There's hope! My pups were pretty awful when first introduced to stock if they thought another dog was working or could hear another dog being worked. I can't stand a barking dog, so it was very annoying and one reason I put them up in crates. Once I started working them regularly, they settled down quite a bit and now can actually manage to behave themselves while watching another dog work, even at trials. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted October 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 Thats great to hear Julie, as out of the 6 I only have one that can sit quietly and watch other dogs work without making an ass of herself, and she is 7 and a little more trial wise. The 3 yr old is learning, but the pups are no where near that yet. Its all just to excieting for them. I cant stand to hear the barking either, its like nails on a chalk board. Course, When at work, I have to listen to dogs barking all day, so Im a bit more sensitive to it I think. So when Im home, the last thing I want to hear is a bunch of barking for no other reason except the Im unhappy and want out barking. I worked dogs last night, and the pups were crated inside. Ohhh what bliss. Of course upon returning inside, I was told under no uncertin terms, that it wasnt very pleasant in there. I think the pups have picked up on the routine and still knew because of who got to go and how had to stay that they were missing out. Maybe that noisy fact will get those in the house, outside during works and perhaps even get me a little help. We can only hope. Darci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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