Correct work at the top

[Laurae]

Is your dog turning in because your training sheep are moving or is he turning in causing the sheep to move?

Are your training sheep teaching your dog it's okay to come in tight?

 

I have a really hard time telling this, to be honest. It seems that as soon as the sheep even get an inkling that he's coming, they're off. So I think maybe he's just too tight, because they are aware of him too early. Taz's other problem when this happens, which I've also posted about, is that he then slices and tends to overrun to compensate. He is actually getting a bit better about that, now that I'm trying to work more in bigger areas...

 

 

ETA, now that I've read Julie's post: we have worked a ton on squaring his flanks (he is, after all, my run-straight-up-the-field-at-trials dog ), but I think I have done this too much or too sloppily, as he now sometimes turns his back completely from the sheep when he moves off. This is obviously not what I meant to achieve.

[Pipedream Farm]

If your training sheep start heading straight to you before your dog can get to 3 or 9, your sheep are part of the problem. If your dog is tight it should push the sheep sideways, away from you not to you. However, "self-fetching sheep" will run to you, perhaps curving around the influence of your dog; but in the end they are coming to you.

 

With these sheep your dog is:

1. not learning how to stay outside the "bubble" while running out

2. not learning how to lift sheep (start them moving towards you)

3. not learning how to move heavy sheep

4. not learning how to read sheep

5. only learning that sheep will run to your feet and it must get behind them as fast as possible

 

I am fighting this same problem with our sheep and my Nell. I've stopped working most of our sheep because they are too "self-fetching"; we have a few that will still stand there until she moves them. Sometimes I'll set up outruns so she has to fetch them away from the pressure; this will help keep the sheep from running to me and will teach her how to lift sheep. You can set up the situation so the sheep want to graze, for example by choosing the time of day to work your dog.

 

Mark

[blackacre]

Good topic Julie,

Actually several good topics, every one of which would all be fun and interesting to reply to, with enough time.

So, just to pick one for the moment, let's call it Theories of Setting Out:

First, learning HOW to set out contains, in microcosm, almost everything you need to know about reading sheep and handling a dog. Here in Ontario we almost always use other handlers to set out, rather than hiring a set out person. Often, there are not enough Open handlers to do the job, so novices with various degrees of competence are pressed into service, with predictable results. Seeing this early on, and accordingly being determined not to screw up an Open run, ever, I made it my business to learn set out. In fact, I have often suggested that the local club put on a one day setting clinic, with instruction from Open handlers, but have never been taken up on that suggestion.

So, first, your dog needs to know the job, or you need to have enough control on the dog to achieve a successful set. Second, you need to have enough dog and, preferably, the right kind of dog to do the job. Third, the less dog and the more handler, the better. Sheep need to respect the dog AND the handler; handler needs to hold his/her side. Fourth, once sheep are set, handler needs to have enough experience or feel to read how the sheep are reacting to the dog coming out, and to what extent to get involved if the sheep try to move. For example, are they starting to move down the field because they are sour and have learned to routine or because the dog coming out has disturbed them.

Just a few random thoughts, I'm sure Anna, for example, would have plenty to add.

A

[Laurae]

If your training sheep start heading straight to you before your dog can get to 3 or 9, your sheep are part of the problem. If your dog is tight it should push the sheep sideways, away from you not to you. However, "self-fetching sheep" will run to you, perhaps curving around the influence of your dog; but in the end they are coming to you.

 

With these sheep your dog is:

1. not learning how to stay outside the "bubble" while running out

2. not learning how to lift sheep (start them moving towards you)

3. not learning how to move heavy sheep

4. not learning how to read sheep

5. only learning that sheep will run to your feet and it must get behind them as fast as possible

 

Mark

 

I appear to be working mainly with self-fetching sheep, I think. One of the people I work with just got his sheep's lambs back from another friend (who lives in the mountains and therefore keeps sheep only during the warmer months), so they will be better, though they've also been worked by dogs. But how do people get around this. Haven't all of your (plural your) sheep been worked by your dogs? Do you replace them every few months, or...?

 

ETA: Oops, I see you've addressed my question already! Thanks for the ideas!

[Pipedream Farm]

A,

 

Good overview and I like the idea of a clinic/fun day on this and perhaps on sorting sheep in a set-out pen.

 

Here's a general question for those who have set sheep. If you must set with grain do you think a protein block would work better than loose grain? I'd expect the lifts would be less explosive than loose grain, but I don't know if it would hold them well enough.

 

Mark

[Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke]

Mark,

I think the protein block might work IF they're hungry for it. Grain works the same way. In each group you might have one who's hungry and two who could care less about eats. I hate to see grain have to be used, but sometimes it's the only way to distract them from seeing thedog leave the handler, when you know darn well they know it's coming.

As long as all is even and consistent, you're going to get "the luck of the draw", and if you get the piggy one, Heaven knows your dog needs to be able to get it moving and not sit and wait til it happens by itself. Isn't that what it's all about?

I could write a book on what I've seen at the top, it's the best seat in the house and if I was ever a handler, I'd hope the judge could sort out what was going on. One of the most frustrating things I see is the perfect outrun followed by a dog who hasn't the power to move them off of the set out, jsut waiting, then looking around, then sometimes backing off. I've seen a sheep back a dog up all the way back to the pen more than once. Then there's the patient but strong dog who, just by his very presence (and all the power he possesses) make the hungriest sheep think and decide to git on down the field. Makes my hair stand on end.

[blackacre]

Hi Mark,

If you've ever been to the Fogts' New Year's trial, they push the sheep out onto hay and then guard against the sheep returning to the set out by leaving the dog between the set out and the sheep. The set out person pretty well stays out of the picture. So, the sheep are free to wander about or stay on the hay and will react to the dog coming out in a much more realistic manner. Of course, you need pretty good sheep for this to be effective. I would expect that most NEBCA sheep would take this style of set out as an invitation to bolt down the field to the post.

A

[stockdogranch]

I've never been asked to set with grain, so don't know about that. I have competed at cattle trials where they put down grain of some sort, and it wasn't fun. Cattle can be tricky enough to lift...but I was at a cattle trial sometime this past year where they used a salt lick to set on, and it worked pretty well. Gave the cattle a target to head for, but it wasn't so interesting as to make them not want to leave it,

A

[stockdogranch]

Oh, and I also agree with Julie P--when a dog has learned to read his/her stock, then the dog can make decisions about how to handle the stock at the top. The really good ones will adjust to fit whatever they encounter up there,

A

[Pearse]

I have a really hard time telling this, to be honest. It seems that as soon as the sheep even get an inkling that he's coming, they're off. So I think maybe he's just too tight, because they are aware of him too early. Taz's other problem when this happens, which I've also posted about, is that he then slices and tends to overrun to compensate. He is actually getting a bit better about that, now that I'm trying to work more in bigger areas...

ETA, now that I've read Julie's post: we have worked a ton on squaring his flanks (he is, after all, my run-straight-up-the-field-at-trials dog ), but I think I have done this too much or too sloppily, as he now sometimes turns his back completely from the sheep when he moves off. This is obviously not what I meant to achieve.

 

How is he close at hand?

 

Let's say you set him up 10 yards from the sheep and send him around. Does he stay 10 yards off the sheep all the way around or does he cut in at 10/2 o'clock? What about from 20 or 30 yards? If he'll keep his distance off the sheep in close, then it may be the stampeding sheep pulling him in. If he doesn't keep his distance close at hand, keep him there until he does.

 

If it is the sheep, don't send him to gather them until you figure out a way to keep them from running to you. I've seen this teach young dogs to pull in, pull up short, chase sheep down the fetch. Get someone to hold the sheep, or use feed to hold them if absolutely necessary.

 

 

On the setout issue, I've set out at a fair number of trials now. I'd say, on average, 15% - 20% of dogs are correct at the top. Sometimes it's the field that pulls them in, either to short or too narrow. Sometimes it's terrain. Occasionally it's the sheep but that is the least likely reason.

 

I try to never have my dog in front of the sheep when setting sheep. It will mean I'll either need to move him at the lift which will affect the lift, or the sheep will need to be lifted over top of him which is bad for my dog and bad for the dog lifting the sheep. Usually, I'll put my dog at 4 or 8 o'clock on the heavy side and if the sheep are itching to go down the fetch line, I'll get in front of them on the basis that I have exert less pressure on the sheep than the dog and therefore affect them less by moving as the competing dog comes in to lift them.

 

I also find that the least dog I can get away with using when setting sheep makes for the most settled sheep. If the sheep will follow me out to the spot, I'll keep my dog way way off them.

 

When to let go of the sheep? The spotter's job is to move the sheep out to the spot and keep them in the general vicinity. As a rule, you try not to hold them. In practical terms, on trial-broke sheep, and especially on Novice or small ProNovice courses where the sheep sees the dog leave the handler's feet, you do need to hang on to the sheep to give the dog a chance. Letting go of such sheep when the dog gets past 3 or 9 o'clock penalizes the dogs who are correct quite often. A dog that comes in wide and deep on sheep that just want to tear up the field is going to have no lift and not much control on the fetch unless that dog is really fast and covers really well. A dog that comes in tight, may not have much better of a lift, but he'll be on the sheep coming down the fetch. Novice is really the toughest class to hold for. The sheep are too close to the handler's post so the sheep can see the dog, often it's a long set (further from the setout pens), close to the exhaust, and the dogs are more likely to be tight or come straight at the sheep.

 

This is going to be a big big problem. More trials, bigger trials, fewer sheep means more trial broke sheep and more uneven work at the top.

 

I swear that some of the sheep are getting whistle trained. I was setting sheep for a trial recently and the dog was on the outrun behind a hill. The sheep had not seen the dog yet. The dog was coming in behind the sheep and the handler blew a "lie down". One older ewe immediately lifted her head and started to look for a way down the fetch line.

 

The handler sending their dog before the sheep are set problem is best fixed by just stopping as soon as (if) you see the dog sent. If the sheep get set too close to the setout or down in a swale a couple of times, the handler will reconsider the advantages of sending early.

 

The handler taking too long to get to the post is a problem for the Course Director to fix although I guess I think that handlers should wait until the sheep are exhausted. A dog (well an Open dog should) know which packet of sheep it's being sent for, but the dog may not see the sheep being spotted, and a few minutes delay is worth not having someone drive 500 miles just to have their dog run to the exhaust because that's the only place they've seen sheep. I think that once you spot a couple of runs, you can judge when you can/need to head out there to get the sheep settled with as little delay and as few distractions as possible.

 

Bottom line is that if you can get good people to set at a trial, try to treat them well because they make all the difference. It's an art more than a science and consistency is critical. I had my trial last weekend and had really good people handling the top end of the field and it made my life, the judges job, and the handlers' experience so much the better because of it.

 

Pearse

[blackacre]

OK, here's a setting decision I always struggle with: sheep are set, I'm holding them so that they are aware of the dog going by at 3 or 9 but are not disturbed by the dog in the sense that they haven't decided to move yet and are still watching its progress. Dog continues to go past the sheep, but rather than bending around on the same path, continues on quite a ways and ends up so deep that the sheep decide to leave before the dog makes contact and gets hold of them. Do you let the sheep go or hold them until the dog comes up and makes contact? Of course, ultimately it is up to the judge to decide, and my inclination is to let them leave, but there has been a time or two when the handler gets a rerun for this and I am left shaking my head.

A

ETA Scenario 2: As above, but the sheep DON'T notice the dog going by but will still leave if I let them.

[blackacre]

Oh, and PS Bill F.

Hustling to bring out the remaining two sheep for that handler that sent early had exactly the opposite effect to what you intended. Best course is to stop what you're doing, stand still and let her find herself short a sheep or two at the post: DQ and end of story, whereas trying to fix it has exactly the opposite effect: rerun and unfair advantage. In other words, now that I glance back to Pearse's post, What he Said.

A

[juliepoudrier]

Andrea,

I think I'd be inclined to let them go and let the judge take care of it, unless I could easily stop them with a small movement of my dog. Otherwise I'd wonder if I had given that handler an advantage by stopping the sheep--if, for example, something about that particular dog affected the sheep in a way none of the other dogs did. If the judge thinks I am wrong to have let the sheep leave, then as you note, a rerun is always an option.

 

J.

[Pearse]

OK, here's a setting decision I always struggle with: sheep are set, I'm holding them so that they are aware of the dog going by at 3 or 9 but are not disturbed by the dog in the sense that they haven't decided to move yet and are still watching its progress. Dog continues to go past the sheep, but rather than bending around on the same path, continues on quite a ways and ends up so deep that the sheep decide to leave before the dog makes contact and gets hold of them. Do you let the sheep go or hold them until the dog comes up and makes contact? Of course, ultimately it is up to the judge to decide, and my inclination is to let them leave, but there has been a time or two when the handler gets a rerun for this and I am left shaking my head.

A

ETA Scenario 2: As above, but the sheep DON'T notice the dog going by but will still leave if I let them.

 

My rule of thumb is that between 9 and 3 o'clock, they're the dog on the course's sheep. That said, on some trial-broke sheep, the dog that is right (wide enough and deep enough) is going to lose his/her sheep. The judge can try to compensate or offer a rerun, but sometimes the handler with a dog that is correct gets screwed. Sometimes the dog is too wide and deep so as to be off contact and deserves to lose the sheep but more often with trial-broke sheep, and on smallish courses, the sheep are ready to run, and the correct dog is running to catch up.

 

The key is to be consistent. Don't hold the sheep based on what the dog is doing but based on how the sheep work, and that is why I try not to look at a running order when setting sheep. I don't want to know which dog is up next because if I know that dog runs tight, I may hold the sheep longer, and if I know it's a wide running dog, I may step off a bit without realizing it. Better not to know.

 

Pearse

 

Pearse

[stockdogranch]

Once the sheep notice and pay attention to the incoming dog (which, as Pearse notes, is usually 3-9-ish), they belong to that dog. And as I said earlier, I pull my dog out of the way at that point. If she is in the fetch line, she goes off to the side, way off. If she was already positioned to the side, I still pull her farther off to the side. I try to stand in the very same spot off to the side while each dog comes in and lifts. If the dog comes in from the side, most of the time that's how they'll lift. If they head either down field or back to see their buddies because the dog isn't where it should be (like back behind the setout pens, or IN the setout pens), that is quite evident to the judge. Of course, these are range ewes, so once they see that dog coming, they tend to not move at all till the dog comes in to lift them. We don't have dog-broke sheep for trials here, so that would make things very different,

A

[Belleview]

Taz's other problem when this happens, which I've also posted about, is that he then slices and tends to overrun to compensate.

 

 

I was told by a big hat a while back that many dogs (& specifically the one of mine he had been watching) do this as a very bad habit... purposely--- since by slicing & causing the sheep to lift fast & to the side, they get "rewarded" by getting to kick in the jets even more & get to over run to cover, to essentially fix the mess they've just created.

 

Sometimes, it's easy to assume the sheep "caused" the situation, but it was helpful for me to have to take a hard look at what my dog was doing wrong and address it as a dog training issue. Period.

 

I've muddled thru a couple dogs that had bad, pushy & sloppy tops and have had to manage countless packets of sheep that have been buggered at the top, by my dogs to the point that they never recover a good relationship with the dog. I had to come to terms with the weakness in my training program which was the cause. Eventually, if you're serious about becoming successful at trialing, or more importantly, just about good work, you need to have a good top.

 

It's worth the effort to try to fix. I personally really hate re-training a top...the longer you wait to address it the harder it gets. Learning from mistakes, hopefully, I try to pay alot more attention to training good top habits from the start with my young dogs. What a difference.

 

Lori Cunningham

[1sheepdoggal]

I have a very wide running dog, and have allowed her to be this way for several years. It has never bothered me that she was, but if I was to want to correct this problem, and not have her begin to start slicing, how would a person go about that? I have started doing work with her this past week, in getting her to stop at the top before she lifts the sheep, and figure while were there working on the top, I may as well try to bring her in a bit more too. I started asking her to "come in here" trying to draw her in closer by using her name and patting my leg, but I didnt train her, (though this could be a natural occurence) but she has always been wide. Darci

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I've allowed Cord to get really wide, too, Darci. We should form a club.

 

I've been doing two things here lately and it has helped a bunch. One, I work on sending him in very short increments. I'll never have trouble with his getting the notion to stop short, so this is safe. I watch his body language and only send him as far as he can go before he gets "that look" where he is getting ready to cast way off contact. I'll also flank him back to me sometimes just to shake things up a bit. Of course we intersperse this with letting him "have the sheep" frequently when he is successful. It's surprising how many things this fixes - he's stopping much more readily now too (where before he was just, not).

 

Two, I've been experimenting with saying his name just gently enough to get his head turned back, but not in a way to startle him or make him think I want him all the way back to him ("pulling the rope"). If I combine the above and add the the name call as he approaches balance, he's learned if he keeps his head in the game, I will mess with him less and I can let him work more naturally (and the natural is in there - his head just gets in the way).

 

Another thing we do that seems to help him stay correct at all phases of work, oddly enough, is to do an assisted drive silently, together, for, oh, miles. But, we always put them at a particular point determined by me (not just wandering around at random), and then we walk off and do another gather and drive. I try to keep it very clear whether we are driving or gathering. If his view is of my rear end, we're driving and his job is to keep 'em straight away from the line I gave him initially. If he sees my rotund figure from the front, we are gathering and his job is to bring them straight and quietly to me. I borrowed the visuals from Robin, by the way, though KillerH was the first one to point out my inconsistent body language to me.

 

Eventually he starts to take control himself and will leave me behind, and that's fine. When he starts doing that, he's really using his brain and I see really great work at every phase - including the top.

 

It's weird but a pretty common and very true notion that when the work at hand is correct, the work out bye will always fall into place as well.

[1sheepdoggal]

Im all for the club, as long as we dont call it The "Wide" Running Club. To many visuals there for me! Phew,....all this good info coming so fast is hard to digest all at once for me. I think what you say sounds very true Rebecca of doing the work in hand, and then the out bye will fall into place. Makes sence and is easy for me to understand. Tonight we shortened things up a bit, I wanted a closer contact with her to get the stop at the top, She almost seemed annoyed and like she didnt trust my judge ment on the call. Although I feel that I shouldnt be to harsh on her as its my fault that she is working as such. But I got the stop. Allowed her the fetch, then let her do some balancing work and flanking. Then sent her to the tub to set out the sheep in a different spot on the pasture. I set them out closer to the fence, so that she couldnt go as wide on the outrun. Needless to say, it wasnt the greatest work we have ever done, matter of fact, it really wasnt even a good one, as I know she is capable of much better work. Especially if I just leave her to it with minamal commands. I am wondering if you can teach an old dog new tricks, she acted very confused about the change of the way I asked her to work tonight, and it worries me that in trying to change the corse of our working relationship, if in fact she will start to distrust me and then start to ignore me all together. Iwished I had come in and read this before we started the work tonight. Perhaps tomorrw will be better. For both of us. Thanks again, to all. I think that the comment by Denise has open up the working discussions so much more already, and I saw names today that I hadnt seen here in my short time on the board. I look forward to more. Darci

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Ahem. Yes, the Wide Running Club. I resemble that remark for sure, especially when I'm working Ted.

 

Don't worry, even if you were entirely the cause of her problems tonight (which is unlikely) and they hold over tomorrow, that just gives you the opportunity tomorrow to work through them! I've learned when stuff comes up I don't understand, the only wrong thing to do is give up - or stop taking my cues from the dog (trying to force the dog to do something instead AKA "making a right").

 

Last weekend I worked Ted out in a new field on just a few sheep and he was acting like he'd never seen sheep before. I couldn't get him around the sheep no matter how close we were, how cooperative they were - I was on the verge of tears. Then I realized I was trying to set him up facing the sheep and he can't stand that yet when the sheep are flighty like they were that day. Instead we walked away and I sent him before we'd even stopped moving away. Bingo! Laura can testify to my Happy Dance. Sometimes it's something so simple - in fact it often seems like that!

 

I figured out this week that proximity to a fence makes Eddie feel obligated to put the sheep against it and push until the fence falls over. So, we've taken the opportunity to do many fence-related exercises that involve taking them away, getting Ed between the sheep and fence and stopping, driving them down a fenceline without flipping them against it . . .

 

Oh, yeah, old dogs and new tricks. You must come up sometime and see my Ben, who didn't learn to drive worth a lick until he was nearly eleven. I have no problem plugging away at it with Cord - at only eight, he's an infant!

[Laurae]

I was told by a big hat a while back that many dogs (& specifically the one of mine he had been watching) do this as a very bad habit... purposely--- since by slicing & causing the sheep to lift fast & to the side, they get "rewarded" by getting to kick in the jets even more & get to over run to cover, to essentially fix the mess they've just created.

 

It's worth the effort to try to fix. I personally really hate re-training a top...the longer you wait to address it the harder it gets. Learning from mistakes, hopefully, I try to pay alot more attention to training good top habits from the start with my young dogs. What a difference.

 

Lori Cunningham

 

Thanks for your thoughts, Lori. I think my dog was wrong after all. I went to a clinic this weekend and learned that I am letting this self-reinforcement happen by not asking for (or enforcing) a lie down early enough--before my dog starts the speed up > cause wreck > fix wreck chain. When he is checked there, he keeps his head and comes in nice and deep--and correct every time. In the past, I've tried to interrupt him with a growl or a "get out" or something, but that hasn't been very effective in the long run, partly because it was difficult for me to perceive whether he actually was kicking out on the fly after being corrected. And if I saw he wasn't kicking out, I had a hard time reinforcing what I wanted to see--everything seems to happen so fast. Lying him down and asking for the flank again results in Taz casting out further when he gets back on his feet, and he comes in correctly. It is easier for me to see and enforce, and right now I guess I need things to be as black and white as possible. But anyway, it made a big difference in how flat he comes in at the top...

[NancyO]

Julie,

 

was wondering if the groundhogs where back in droves at Seclusival? I've been told that is what caused alot of the sniffing and peeing at the top at that field. 2 years ago, most of the groundhogs were gone, as was most of the sniffing and peeing.

 

I would prefer the sheep to be held less tight at the top, if they drift, let the dog running pick them up and then start fetch from there. When held really tight, as the dog comes around and is starting to lift it's sheep, and the pressure it released by either the setout dog and/or setout person, the sheep will really pull to one side or another, actually causing 2 lifts to occur, now the dog running should compensate, but you usually end up with sheep going off line to some degree, till the dog lifts it's sheep again.

 

Pet peeve is when holding with corn, the setout person keeps throwing corn down, sometimes over and over again, even when the dog is behind it's sheep and trying to lift them.

 

Julie wrote:

 

At Edgeworth, Tommy Wilson actually sent word down from the top about one dog whom he thought was particularly nice in his work there. I'm sure the handler was happy to hear the praise of the good work!

 

Yes I was , but he is usually correct at the top. By the way, he is NOT a natural outrunner. I had to spend a very long time getting him to outrun correctly! I hope to some day have the pleasure of a natural outrunning dog!

 

Nancy O

[juliepoudrier]

Pet peeve is when holding with corn, the setout person keeps throwing corn down, sometimes over and over again, even when the dog is behind it's sheep and trying to lift them.

That goes along with my pet peeve of handlers not getting to the post in a timely manner (do they think I'm going to feed a 50-lb bag to their set while I'm up there waiting?). I will NOT keep throwing corn down since I don't like trying to pick sheep up when their heads are buried in grain and don't think it makes for an accurate lift from a judging standpoint. If I use it, I toss enough down to get them settled in one spot and take their minds off bolting to the set out or exhaust and if they eat it all up *long before* the handler gets to the post to send the dog, then it's that handler who has to suffer the consequences (ideally you put down just enough to help hold them there long enough for the handler to send his/her dog but so that they are pretty much done eating by the time the handler's dog is at the top for a more "natural" lift, but I won't keep tossing feed out because eventually the sheep tire of it and then it has no usefulness--as described here--for later runs).

 

J.

[1sheepdoggal]

Taz's other problem when this happens, which I've also posted about, is that he then slices and tends to overrun to compensate.

I was told by a big hat a while back that many dogs (& specifically the one of mine he had been watching) do this as a very bad habit... purposely--- since by slicing & causing the sheep to lift fast & to the side, they get "rewarded" by getting to kick in the jets even more & get to over run to cover, to essentially fix the mess they've just created.

 

Sometimes, it's easy to assume the sheep "caused" the situation, but it was helpful for me to have to take a hard look at what my dog was doing wrong and address it as a dog training issue. Period.

 

I've muddled thru a couple dogs that had bad, pushy & sloppy tops and have had to manage countless packets of sheep that have been buggered at the top, by my dogs to the point that they never recover a good relationship with the dog. I had to come to terms with the weakness in my training program which was the cause. Eventually, if you're serious about becoming successful at trialing, or more importantly, just about good work, you need to have a good top.

 

It's worth the effort to try to fix. I personally really hate re-training a top...the longer you wait to address it the harder it gets. Learning from mistakes, hopefully, I try to pay alot more attention to training good top habits from the start with my young dogs. What a difference.

 

Lori Cunningham

At this point Lori, Im with you in not having much fun re-training the work at the top. It has been a long time needing to be done, and it is difficult. I feel more for the dog at this point because up till now, her work has been OK with me as far as she was concerned. Now Im asking her to do it differently, and its like JW said, its like learning it all over again. How frustrating for both of us. I have a couple of young dogs that Im starting now, and being correct from the start is our goal. Though I have to ask while Im here, Ive been told by a fella that I use to train with, to not be so insistant about being correct all the time, and allow the dog to work on its own, and make mistakes. To me, that sounds rather contradictory, can some one perhaps give me a better understanding of what that means? I dont think that he was incorrect in telling me that, as I have heard other folks say the same thing, I just think that I have not been able to put it into the right context, to be able to utilize the notion correctly.

[Laurae]

Ive been told by a fella that I use to train with, to not be so insistant about being correct all the time, and allow the dog to work on its own, and make mistakes. To me, that sounds rather contradictory, can some one perhaps give me a better understanding of what that means? I dont think that he was incorrect in telling me that, as I have heard other folks say the same thing, I just think that I have not been able to put it into the right context, to be able to utilize the notion correctly.

 

I'm not Lori, but in my case with Taz, partly because the sheep we were using primarily were farm flocks used to being worked by dogs and partly because he is naturally tight-running, he had developed a habit of being flat at the top. I am not sure my dog quite understood that he could get better control of the sheep if he came in deeper. He reads his sheep very well, but I think he hadn't been encouraged to do it correctly (due to my poor training) in the first place. Instead, it became self-rewarding to come in flat, get the sheep running, bring them back, and regroup. This weekend, we worked to break that chain (actually, we didn't have to work that hard, but time will tell if I can achieve same results on my own). Breaking this chain freed Taz up to think about how to come in correctly--and, lo and behold, he figured it out without needing any artificial placement from the handler.