What is the point of this?

[C Crocker]

This is an entirely stupid argument.

 

Conformation breeders will breed Border Collies for conformation regardless of whether we think it is wrong or not, and regardless of whether we think their dogs are ugly or not, and regardless of whether we think their dogs have a horrible life going from show ring to show ring. Why will they do this? It strokes their ego to win ribbons and titles, and it fills their pocketbooks to sell, show, and train conformation Barbie Border Collies, and because they can.

 

Sport breeders will breed Border Collies for Agility, Frisbee, Doggie Dancing, Dock Diving, Puppy Polo, CaniCross or whatever other games someone can come with that someone can do with their dog. They will claim it is "work" and that their best dogs come from "strong working lines". They'll do this regardless of whether we think they are delusional, and whether we think they are ruining the breed. Why will they do this? It strokes their ego to win ribbons and titles, and it fills their pocketbooks to sell, and train Sport Border Colllies, and because they can.

 

"Herding" breeders will breed Border Collies for "herding" because they won a ProNovice trial once or show interest in stock and their great-great-great-great-great granddaddy was ##Wiston Cap. They'll do this regardless of whether or not we label them "backyard breeders" and mock them. Why will they do this? Because they can, because they think their dog is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and because someone will buy their dogs.

 

People who want Border Collies who can work stock and want to do so, will go to the people who have been consistently breeding good working dogs and buy from them. Some of them will take the time, and make the effort, to learn what it takes to breed good working dogs so that there will be another generation of a small group of breeders who produce good working dogs. Why will they do this? Because they need good working dogs, and because they care about the breed. They rarely produce enough dogs to make any money off it. Some can make money training and teaching.

 

All we can do is continue to get the word out that such people exist and guide people who need good dogs to them. Let the sport breeders breed the Sport Border Collie. Pretty soon they'll all be Border Jacks or some such thing. Let the conformation breeders breed the Barbie Border Collie, Pretty soon there will be three (or more) breeds. The Border Collie breed is only 150 or so years old. That's about 30 generations. The Australian Barbie Colllie is well on its way to being a new breed. The sooner the better.

 

Unless every breeder of working dogs is prepared to either not sell into pet, sport, or show homes, or only to do so with a strict and enforceable "spay/neuter" contract, and not to let their dogs be used for breeding with sport or conformation dogs this will continue.

 

As for the annual round of "look at the ugly conformation dogs, aren't we superior with our non-fluffy, covered in shit, skinny "working" dogs", it's pointless, arrogant, and juvenile.

 

The best way to support the betterment of the breed is to get out there and work your damn dogs and let the general public see you doing it. The conformation and sport breeders won't go away as long as there are prizes to be won and money to be made so don't waste your breath on them. Spend your effort on supporting the true working breeders and, more importantly, real working dogs.

 

Pearse

 

 

 

Pearse,

 

Good post, from start to finish.

 

Carolyn

[Eileen Stein]

There are quite a few good working dogs who have earned their CH in the show ring on the side, cause it's not that hard to do.

 

I believe you've said that before, but you've never backed it up. What dogs specifically are you referring to? How many can you name?

[MrSnappy]

The "working lines" thing is actually very difficult to explain to people who don't invest themselves in the politics of the preservation of the working dog, to be fair. As an example, I have a friend with a dog that she bought from a BYB. The BYB happens to live on a farm and uses the dogs to bring the cattle in on occasion. The dogs have no pedigree to speak of, and are sold through the local newspaper.

 

In addition to telling people she rescued her pup from some horrible breeders (I don't touch this one; I pick my battles) she likes to say the dog is from "working lines." I did patiently explain to her one day that there are working dogs from working lines, and then there are other dogs who sometimes can work in spite of what they were bred for, and that her dog fell into the latter category, not the former. While she is not a stupid person, after several go-rounds she accused me of making up a third category of dogs - working dogs, dogs who work even though they aren't working dogs according-to-RDM-and-her-mystery-categories, and show dogs - especially for her dog, since I clearly resented the fact that her "rescued" dog can work (and BTW, he actually can't work, unless being muzzled in the round pen is a usual factor in a working dog) which was both amusing and dismaying to me at the same time. The whole "rescuer" thing, you know.

 

Anyway, I think anyone who knows me would agree I am not inept about making a point, so I was kind of mystified about why I was struggling to get her to understand what I meant, and my BF pointed out to me that the stuff that was important to me was not important to everyone else, and sometimes if something isn't that important to someone they aren't going to really process what they are hearing too well. And I think he has a point. So while I agree is is vitally important to have this discussion over and over again, so as many people who are interested in it do see it and learn from as possible, I also think that making someone - who isn't interested enough in the topic to read the whole thread - see your point, probably won't happen. You sort of have to chip away at those people patiently, I think.

 

I also think that smart ass vitriolic one liners / insults really just make the situation worse, not better, and serve no useful purpose to the discussion. JMO.

 

Lastly, I have had conversations with Brandon about the politics of sheepdog culture and he clearly doesn't get it. I have asked him why he advertises BYBS on his site and he feels that he is teaching those breeders about working dog culture and doesn't want to repel them by not offering them a vehicle for advertising their wares. This makes no sense to me at all and I have told him as much. But I don't think Brandon yet fully understands the culture we are speaking of. I believe we are so immersed in it that it makes perfect sense to us, but I imagine to the average owner reading this stuff, it would be like me in a calculus class. Completely foreign.

 

That's not to say that those people won't come around in time - I did, and I knew a heck of a lot less when I joined these boards so many years ago, but it doesn't always happen overnight. And unless those people are interested in the topic, as I was, it may never happen.

 

RDM

[Brandon M]

Brandon,

I think the point people are taking exception to is your comment that quite a few working dogs also have conformation championships. I am pretty active in sheepdog trialing and know of none, although that doesn't mean there might not be a couple. But I would be willing to bet that if the dogs are strictly conformation-bred, then they aren't trialing at the top levels (open). Also I think I should point out that being AKC registered and being conformation-bred are not the same thing. I'm sure there are plenty of working-bred dogs that have been dual registered with the AKC. These dogs may well be trialing to a high standard, and folks with conformation-bred dogs seem to like to point out that AKC-registered dogs are indeed running in open. What they fail to note is that these dogs are generally working-bred and dual registered, not conformation-bred and registered solely with the AKC.

 

I think the other thing people are taking exception to is your comment that your dog is mostly working bred but that the dam is a show dog. Perhaps you meant that the dam is working-bred, but is dual-registered and has been shown in the conformation ring, in which case your statement that your pup is mostly working bred could be true. But if the dam is strictly a conformation-bred dog, then it would follow that the dam's lines are mostly show-bred dogs, with working dogs likely appearing only far back in the pedigree, in which case your statement would not be accurate. I think that's the source of everyone's confusion. To those of us with working-bred dogs, the term working-bred means bred from working parents who have proven themselves to a high standard of stockwork. Lots of puppy mills advertise pups from working lines and will list the dogs they mean, like Wisp, etc., but just because a dog has famous dogs in its pedigree doesn't mean the dog is working-bred--there's a lot more that goes into a "working breeding" than important names.

 

J.

 

Thanks Julie. The dogs im talking about that have a CH with AKC and are also good working dogs do not trial as far as I know. Like this dog 'Critter'. Dont forget that a lot of good handlers with good dogs dont have time or interest for trialing.

 

 

The dam is dual registered. She is on a working farm in Virginia. I dont know how many shows they have brought her to, it doesn't interest me so I never inquired.

[Brandon M]

I believe you've said that before, but you've never backed it up. What dogs specifically are you referring to? How many can you name?

 

It would take me awhile to figure that out. I can only name a few. But really I dont feel like continuing with this cause I dont feel like a debate. If I could find them you could too. Have a good afternoon

[Eileen Stein]

It would take me awhile to figure that out. I can only name a few. But really I dont feel like continuing with this cause I dont feel like a debate. If I could find them you could too. Have a good afternoon

 

Yes, I think you didn't feel like it the last time I asked also. I only ask because I review the list of Border Collies awarded AKC breed championships every month, and have done for several years, and I am not seeing these "good working dogs who have earned their CH in the show ring on the side." I know of one AKC CH who runs in open trials, but that dog is not a "work-for-a-living" stockdog. I have come across none who are livestock working dogs that don't trial.

 

I have asked him why he advertises BYBS on his site and he feels that he is teaching those breeders about working dog culture and doesn't want to repel them by not offering them a vehicle for advertising their wares.

 

Yikes! Cherokee Rose! Brandon, you really think you're going to teach Mary Ann Harrison about working dog culture through offering her a vehicle for advertising her wares?

 

Talk about rationalization.

[Brandon M]

Yes, I think you didn't feel like it the last time I asked also. I only ask because I review the list of Border Collies awarded AKC breed championships every month, and have done for several years, and I am not seeing these "good working dogs who have earned their CH in the show ring on the side." I know of one AKC CH who runs in open trials, but he is not a "work-for-a-living" stockdog. I have come across none who are livestock working dogs that don't trial.

Yikes! Cherokee Rose! Brandon, you really think you're going to teach Mary Ann Harrison about working dog culture through offering her a vehicle for advertising her wares?

 

Talk about rationalization.

 

I have asked him why he advertises BYBS on his site and he feels that he is teaching those breeders about working dog culture and doesn't want to repel them by not offering them a vehicle for advertising their wares.

 

You never asked me that RDM. You said there were a few breeders you wouldn't touch with a 10 ft pole or something. You never said who or why either. I told you that if I include them on the site that they will continue to view it, (unlike here where they are often.. ya know), then they have more chance to learn something than if they were basically run off. And there is, and will be more at an increasing rate, pro working dog information. If they were bad breeders I would take them off.

 

The site isn't named All Border Collies for no reason. its for working, sport, pet, owners with no biases. Regardless of my own personal oppinions.

 

As for the breeders directory; It's a breeders directory. It encompasses all BC breeders, working or not. It's not for me to censor it based on my own beliefs, that's not what I was going for with the website. If there is something obviously wrong with them besides their breeding lines or objectives, I would remove them. Also I have a statement at the first page of it that people read. I also have a rescue directory, and dont censor that either...

 

Eileen, what is your purpose in reviewing BCs that are awarded AKC championships. I'm just going by people i've met who have good working dogs and have told me they got a championship with the AKC. I dont do the research like you do though, so like everything else I say it's just my own oppinion or experience, or even second hand info. There are only two I know of personally who are AKC registered and have a CH.

[Journey]

Thanks Julie. The dogs im talking about that have a CH with AKC and are also good working dogs do not trial as far as I know. Like this dog 'Critter'. Dont forget that a lot of good handlers with good dogs dont have time or interest for trialing.

 

 

The dam is dual registered. She is on a working farm in Virginia. I dont know how many shows they have brought her to, it doesn't interest me so I never inquired.

 

 

Good Grief! Brandon where did you get your information? Critter, is "Shoreland's Critter Getter", used to be owned by Peachy Keen, retired somewhere now - a working dog? When? I think there is 1 dog out of him that runs in the open trials, not sure that she's out of him even though. His sire and dam are both ACK (sport bred) for lack of a better term. If you mean Critter's dam is dual reg., well yes, of course, she's a 15 yo now. And, I have no idea what "good handlers" your speaking of in regards to these dogs - they are all ACK oh what is the PC term for ConfOrmation breeders?

 

MAH still advertising and you help her? Now, "what is the point of this" brings on a whole new meaning.

 

 

Karen

[hillfarm]

2007 Westminster Border Collies

 

I honestly just don't get it.

 

Jodi

 

 

Me either, the dogs look so heavy they look like they would'nt last 5 minutes with a group of sheep.

 

Lisa

[Brandon M]

Good Grief! Brandon where did you get your information? Critter, is "Shoreland's Critter Getter", used to be owned by Peachy Keen, retired somewhere now - a working dog? When? I think there is 1 dog out of him that runs in the open trials, not sure that she's out of him even though. His sire and dam are both ACK (sport bred) for lack of a better term. If you mean Critter's dam is dual reg., well yes, of course, she's a 15 yo now. And, I have no idea what "good handlers" your speaking of in regards to these dogs - they are all ACK oh what is the PC term for ConfOrmation breeders?

 

MAH still advertising and you help her? Now, "what is the point of this" brings on a whole new meaning.

 

 

Karen

 

I was told he was a working dog by a breeder called Lochinbrae that said he was in Lance's Dam's line.

[bcnewe2]

I'm just going by people I’ve met who have good working dogs and have told me they got a championship with the AKC. I dont do the research like you do though, so like everything else I say it's just my own oppinion or experience, or even second hand info. There are only two I know of personally who are AKC registered and have a CH.

 

See? How can you know what you don't know?

BorderC is learning and hopefully will continue, but how would he know to not believe or question the people who say their dog is a great herder and has its herding title without the boards to help guide him? I bet if Brandon saw the dogs in question with the titles they have he would agree they are great "herders" but....if he continues to grow he will figure things out.

 

To me it's still a matter of not knowing what you don’t know and not knowing who to believe. At least it was that way for me what I started.

 

I'm not picking on Brandon in particular but his post was there for an example.

 

Pearce, you say the arguments on this thread are stupid. I know you clarified your statement but IMO it still smacks of elitism, then you say you're going out to put on a trial (I edited my earlier post from demo to trial) for the regular people to learn from. How do you knock the boards for trying to educate even if it's goes askew sometimes? How will Brandon or people like him be able to tell the difference from you or a "herder" person with a champion title for herding? He has to learn and reading all this is helping, at least I think so.

 

K~

[Brandon M]

See? How can you know what you don't know?

BorderC is learning and hopefully will continue, but how would he know to not believe or question the people who say their dog is a great herder and has its herding title without the boards to help guide him? I bet if Brandon saw the dogs in question with the titles they have he would agree they are great "herders" but....if he continues to grow he will figure things out.

 

To me it's still a matter of not knowing what you don’t know and not knowing who to believe. At least it was that way for me what I started.

 

I’m not picking on Brandon in particular but his post was there for an example.

 

Pearce, you say the arguments on this thread are stupid. I know you clarified your statement but IMO it still smacks of elitism, then you say you're going out to put on demos for the regular people to learn from. How do you knock the boards for trying to educate even if it's goes askew sometimes? How will Brandon or people like him be able to tell the difference from you or a "herder" person with a champion title for herding? He has to learn and reading all this is helping, at least I think so.

 

K~

 

umm.. I know im not good at communicating to you guys on the board. but geesh. I mention dogs I know with AKC CH marks who are good stockdogs, and all the sudden thats my argument. I DO know of those dogs. I dont have pics like I had of critter, who apparently doesnt work much, but maybe I can find something for you... but that is still not anything I want to commit myself to arguing for. I really dont care if there are AKC dogs working stock... I just mentioned it.

 

ETA: I re-read that and I should have mentioned that I'm not qualified to mention it. since I dont have name, stats, registration #s, etc. to back it up. Just forget I said anything.

[juliepoudrier]

Brandon,

Maybe this site would interest you:Expelled members.

Maybe you'd like to at least censor the people listed on this page?

 

As for the dogs with a CH. who are good working dogs that don't trial, I'm sorry, but anyone can claim that they own extraordinary working dogs, but when the claim comes from someone whose interest lies in getting an AKC championship on their dog, then I find the claim suspect. I also don't buy the story that good handlers with good dogs don't have the time or interest in trialing, and yet they apparently *do* have the time and interest to compete in the conformation ring. They wouldn't call their dogs conformation champions without gaining the proof, so it's a bit (okay, a lot) hypocritical of them to claim that their dogs work to a high standard without any proof.

 

And I think you missed my point from earlier. I have no doubt that there are working-bred dogs (that is, dogs bred exclusively for working ability and nothing else, bred from dogs with proven working ability) who could be registered with the AKC thanks to their open stud book and then compete in conformation shows, and perhaps even gain their championships. The opposite, however, is much less likely to be true. That is, it's highly unlikely that a dog from lines bred strictly for show for generations to be able to go out and win trials (or even be competitive) at the highest level. It may seem like a matter of semantics to you, but trust me it's not. That's why when someone like you asserts that there are AKC conformation champions who are also competitive (as in doing well at the higher levels) trial dogs, I ask whether the dogs in question are dual registered and actually working-bred as opposed to being AKC-registered and conformation bred. The fact remains that breeding for a particular look over generations results in a loss of working ability, whereas breeding strictly for working ability may well result in dogs who can also compete in the show ring. I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that most, if not all, of the "AKC dogs" competing in USBCHA open trials are working-bred dogs that have been dual registered with the AKC as the *second* registry. I'd also bet a lot of money that dogs that are strictly AKC registered (that is, they aren't allowed registration in the AKC because they have registration with another body the AKC recognizes but rather because they come from generations of AKC-registered dogs) are not the ones who are trialing in the top echelons in this country.

 

I know trials aren't necessarily the only way to prove a dog, but when a person with a conformation champion claims the dog also has excellent working abilities, then I think they should be willing to put their money where their mouth is and prove it. If they had the time and money to get a Ch. on their dog and it's as good as they say it is, then it shouldn't take an inordinate amount of time and money to hit a few trials and prove it.

 

J.

[sandra s.]

I feel very silly for asking this , but I've been wondering for some time. How, exactly, does the existance of barbie/sport collies threaten "the working border collie" as a breed?

 

Yes, I agree that breeding dogs for sports or beauty contests is a despisable idea, when there are so many dogs out there looking for a home, or being killed due to lack of space. I also understand why anyone who loves border collies for being border collies will resent the fact that these show ring creatures are being passed off as the ultimate border collies. And I certainly understand why anyone who likes folks to have some respect for their dogs will want to puke all over the pretty green show ring floor!

 

But I don't understand how these barbies or sport collies influence the breeding of "real" BCs. As long as there's a demand for good stockdogs, and the working-line breeders keep the "fake" BCs out of their lines - which they're surely more than capable of - how does the "working border collie" breed get threatened by the existance of the fakes?

[MrSnappy]

You never asked me that RDM. You said there were a few breeders you wouldn't touch with a 10 ft pole or something. You never said who or why either. I told you that if I include them on the site that they will continue to view it, (unlike here where they are often.. ya know), then they have more chance to learn something than if they were basically run off.

 

Semantic, Brandon. You asked to use my photos on your site and I said no, because you are an advertising vehicle for those breeders. I did not name them, because I don't roll like that. And then we discussed your reasons. It's the same thing/outcome. You are correct that I did not go looking for your site to ask those questions. Had I gone looking and saw what I saw, I wouldn't have visited again long enough to ask.

 

If they were bad breeders I would take them off.

 

But that's clearly not true because you haven't. You don't even know which ones to take off, which is the crux of my argument - and of others' here.

 

As for the breeders directory; It's a breeders directory. It encompasses all BC breeders, working or not. It's not for me to censor it based on my own beliefs, that's not what I was going for with the website.

 

But then what do you achieve except to further advance the causes of breeders who are doing the breed a disservice? I don't understand having a website if it undermines your own beliefs, and that leads to the question - what are your beliefs? Because right now, your beliefs seem to be confused.

 

If there is something obviously wrong with them besides their breeding lines or objectives, I would remove them.

 

 

Why "besides"?

 

RDM

[bcnewe2]

I'm not saying it is your argument Brandon, I'm pointing out that there is so much information out there discussions like this help people like you to grow and keep learning.

 

I'd be hard pressed to believe you when you say there are good working AKC dogs out there that are strictly AKC bred. I know you don't know enough to make that argument. I'm not bashing you for that, I'm encouraging you to keep learning. I beleive what I say because I've educated myself long enough to understand the key issues. If you keep reading you will too.

[juliepoudrier]

Sandra,

It's the whole AKC "machine" that's the problem. The conformation breeders have co-opted the breed and next thing you know John Q. Public *believes* that the dogs they see on TV at Westminster or Crufts are the "true border collie." No, the conformation breeders won't prevent good working dogs from being bred, but they will prevent most people who don't know any better than to think the AKC is the standard of purebred dogs from recognizing that the working border collie in all its diversity is the true border collie. I mentioned in another post not too long ago after helping with a sheepdog demo at an open farm day that every single person who asked me about my dogs asked me what breed they are, and when I asked in return if they had an impression that border collies were only what you see at Westminster, they all said yes. I then went on to explain why that wasn't true, but it was evidence enough of the power of the AKC and conformation breeding to influence average people with regard to what a particular breed is, looks like, and should be.

 

J.

[Eileen Stein]

It IS a matter of not knowing what you don’t know, but unfortunately if you think you do know, you're not open to learning. And you will reject the information offered by people who actually do know, because you think you already know otherwise. "I know X" and "Somebody once told me X" are not the same thing.

I told you that if I include them on the site that they will continue to view it, (unlike here where they are often.. ya know), then they have more chance to learn something than if they were basically run off.

Nothing stops anyone from reading here, and plenty of people who have been criticized here continue to read here, believe me. Breeders whose main interest is making money want to advertise as widely as possible. They are delighted to find any site where they can advertise. They have no interest in learning anything from you. You have already served their purpose.

As for the breeders directory; It's a breeders directory. It encompasses all BC breeders, working or not. It's not for me to censor it based on my own beliefs, that's not what I was going for with the website. If there is something obviously wrong with them besides their breeding lines or objectives, I would remove them.

How would you know? You're not taking any steps to find out, are you? By helping bad breeders market their dogs, you're choosing to be part of the problem instead of part of the solution. Why is that a good thing? Why shouldn't your website reflect your own beliefs? I assume that in fact it does.

Eileen, what is your purpose in reviewing BCs that are awarded AKC championships.

I'm the person who reviews them for the ABCA as part of enforcing its policy of de-registering (or not registering) any dogs who become AKC champions.

[OurBoys]

Sandra,

It's the whole AKC "machine" that's the problem. The conformation breeders have co-opted the breed and next thing you know John Q. Public *believes* that the dogs they see on TV at Westminster or Crufts are the "true border collie." No, the conformation breeders won't prevent good working dogs from being bred, but they will prevent most people who don't know any better than to think the AKC is the standard of purebred dogs from recognizing that the working border collie in all its diversity is the true border collie. I mentioned in another post not too long ago after helping with a sheepdog demo at an open farm day that every single person who asked me about my dogs asked me what breed they are, and when I asked in return if they had an impression that border collies were only what you see at Westminster, they all said yes. I then went on to explain why that wasn't true, but it was evidence enough of the power of the AKC and conformation breeding to influence average people with regard to what a particular breed is, looks like, and should be.

 

J.

 

Sandra,

 

Case in point-On Sat 9/22 when DH & I took JJ and Jake to the park and the guy walked up with his son and told his son "That's what a normal border collie looks like." He also told me it was rare for a border collie to weigh over 50 lbs. I didn't come right out and ask him but his comments sounded like they came straight from watching the dog shows on TV. Julie's right. Too many people 'educate' themselves by watching AKC shows on TV and suddenly become 'experts'.

[sandra s.]

I know what you mean Julie and Brenda, it's the same thing over here - I don't know for sure if Kessie is purebred, but I do know that it's not her "brown spots" that prove the opposite as several BC owners have tried to point out to me .

 

I just fail to see how it does the working BC itself any harm. It's the general public who gets bullsh*tted and misses out on something. Fighting against that - heck, fighting against organisations like the AKC for any reason - is definitely a worthy goal, no doubt about that at all!

[Brandon M]

Brandon,

Maybe this site would interest you:Expelled members.

Maybe you'd like to at least censor the people listed on this page?

 

I have censored those people. There was one, Cherokee Rose Border Collies, that I had on there. They are removed from the listing. Thanks for the heads up.

[Sue R]

The "Breeders Directory" for All Border Collies reads largely like a list of "where to NOT buy a Border Collie". I wonder how many producers of poorly-bred pups have found gullible purchasers with a little help from that site?

 

In North-Central WV, my dogs have more likely been identified as "Border Collie crosses" than as Border Collies, thanks to the pervasive influence of the AKC and its affiliates, like the Westminster Kennel Club and its widely-viewed dog show and Eukanuba and its also widely-viewed dog shows.

 

Not that I care what folks think about my dogs, but it's a shame that they think that the "alphabet soup" dogs are the real Border Collies and the "mark of excellence and quality", and not the dogs that are bred to work and do the work.

[Brandon M]

How would you know? You're not taking any steps to find out, are you? By helping bad breeders market their dogs, you're choosing to be part of the problem instead of part of the solution. Why is that a good thing? Why shouldn't your website reflect your own beliefs? I assume that in fact it does.

 

Well I've learned at least one way today. and removed one breeder from the list. If you want to make a listing of bad breeders I will exclude them all. On the ABCA list there was only one breeder on my list I had to remove.

 

Question though: you would de-register a dog that is ABCA registered for becoming an AKC champion? why? I hope you view the dog in its own environment, working, before making that decision without assuming it doesn't work because it's AKC registered and won a championship title. I mean, it is registered with the ABCA at the same time..

[Kyrasmom]

Another POV of why sport/conformation can hurt the working border collie breeders is that if they become the standard for all the non-rural people, and what the general public wants and identifies as a real Border Collie, there is less or no outlet for well bred working border collie pups that may not make the cut and need pet homes.

 

Most people who want a border collie as a pet would be perfectly happy with a well bred working border collie from just about any standpoint. It this were the standard for the general public then it would pick up the slack of some of the border collie pups that may end up in shelters because the general public thinks they aren't "real".

 

Granted, it's a very fine line, as I personlly don't feel that breeders should breed many litters and I do think that homes should be lined up before the pups are on the ground....but there are a multitude of very good pet homes for altered puppies!

 

Maria

[bcnewe2]

It IS a matter of not knowing what you don’t know, but unfortunately if you think you do know, you're not open to learning. And you will reject the information offered by people who actually do know, because you think you already know otherwise. "I know X" and "Somebody once told me X" are not the same thing

 

I'm not sure if you're referring to me or others Eileen. But if it's to me, let me add I'll never be done learning about these wonderful working dogs. Someone telling me X is only fuel for me to find answers to why they think so or why I do or don't choose to believe them. I do feel I have learned things from here, other places and experiences. I'm always open to learning more and helping others who have less knowledge about BC's than what I have. What makes them want to believe me over anyone else? Nothing, it's only my opinion, but with new information for them to think about it's a matter of them learning or not for themselves.

I guess when I say how can you know what you don't know, I should answer with keep learning, that's how!

 

K~