Riven fell off the dogwalk

[smileyzookie]

Riven is doing superb at agility! We just finished her 3rd lesson and she's already connecting jumps tunneling and A frame together. The weave is goin a bit slower, but still going. Yesterday we did the dogwalk for the first time. Evidently I was leading her too close with my hand and she fell off. The instructor said she was feeling "pressure" from my hand being to close, basically sort of like I was pushing her without touching her. So he showed me and she walked perfectly in the middle for him. I tried and she's so dang fast and Im so flippin slow by the time my head registers to use my hand and speak everything she's already done with the stinking dogwalk lol. Anyone have issues with it?

 

Second issue is that he wants her to sit when she's done with the A frame. Like as she's going down put her bottom on the frame itself and front feet on the ground. Im having difficulty getting her to do this, since she wants to turn around and go back across. .... see, doing obstacles = hot dogs = wanting to do obstacles over and over.

 

Oh and just an observation, Riven seems to thrive more on learning the new obstacles. She seems to get bored easily, but since I've started connecting obstacles she is doing better. However with the weave she just doesnt want to pay attention and acts like it is the most boring thing in the world to her lol. She can act brain dead but as soon as we go to a new obstacle she's all at attention and wanting to do it...as if challenges are her life mission. I didnt think she'd do the dogwalk, A frame or tunnel and she did them all on the first try!! She's impressed me so much. Next week is the see saw (cant remember technical name for it), and I dont think she'll do that one either lol....hopefully she'll prove me wrong:)

[Michelle K]

In my intro to agility class, the instructor used a mini dog walk just to teach the dogs to pay attention where they are stepping. Once they were doing well on it, we moved to the full size dog walk. What size is the one you're training on? Is there a way that you can make a mini dog walk at home to practice with Riven on?

 

Does he require the dog to sit at the end? The reason for this is to ensure that the dog understands to hit those contact points. Can you do a stand and stay, maybe? We didn't do that in our class. We taught ours the "easy" command to slow down at the end of the obstacle. All of the dogs in our class did great with that method.

 

It's funny how they do the things we least expect them to and won't do the ones we expect. Nykie's favorite were the chute tunnel and the dog walk.

[Guest TheRuffMuttGang]

Your dog should be working on a mini dogwalk before going to a fullsize one. We use one that's only about a foot off of the ground and start with a free shaping sort of exercise. Basically, we click any interaction with the obstacle. Eventually the dog will jump over it, stand on it and turn around on it on their own if they get rewarded for it. It's not until the dog is comfortable with the existence of the baby dogwalk that we actually ask the dogs to maneuver it properly. Also, I am curious how a dog can have a reliable "target" behavior in only a 3rd agility class? We do target work for 12 weeks minimum before ever even thinking of putting the targeting behavior together with a contact obstacle. The dog shoud be really looking for its target when you give the command you use for said behavior.

 

Why does your instructor want a sit at the bottom of the contact obstacles? If Riven had a good targeting behavior prior to being asked to perform the obstacles, you oughtn't need a sit at the end. I've always asked for a 2-on-2-off with a target touch.

 

The dog I am training now has been through 12 weeks of "pre-agility" and 14 weeks of real agility and we have not even THOUGHT of training the teeter yet so why an instructor wants to teach a dog the teeter in the 4th week of class is totally beyond me.

 

Is this an actual agility training facility or is this just a for fun type of class? If this place actually claimed to be a true agility training facility, I think I'd look for a new place to train (if you have other options).

[smileyzookie]

Sorry in a hurry..no other options, and this is for fun only.. not competition...

[MrSnappy]

Both my dogs fell off the dogwalk this week and I was nowhere near them. Tweed fell off because ... he's Tweed. Piper fell off because she is too darn fast for her own feet.

 

I wouldn't ever teach my dogs to sit at the bottom of an A-Frame. That's really hard on their necks and backs. If you want a 2on 2off, you want their heads low, so teach it with a target plate at the bottom. If you want a running contact well, heaven help you. They sure don't work for us. I had a running contact on Tweed that deteriorated to a leaping Superman off the top so I retrained a 2o2o. I taught Piper her contacts before she ever set foot on a contact obstacle, and backchained it.

 

If you are teaching weaves in a push-pull fashion, it will take longer and it can be demotivating for the dog. There are so many options for teaching weaves now, you might like to explore your options to see what works best for Riven.

 

We have always introduced the teeter early on as well, and it's always worked for my dogs. Not one of the three of them has teeter issues, though Piper did take some convincing that it was not a launching pad. This is where the backchaining was helpful. Now she thinks it's a waterslide.

 

RDM

[Root Beer]

Why does your instructor want a sit at the bottom of the contact obstacles? If Riven had a good targeting behavior prior to being asked to perform the obstacles, you oughtn't need a sit at the end. I've always asked for a 2-on-2-off with a target touch.

 

I've been hearing of this recently.

 

It's not a method that I'm interested in, but I have heard that some people are doing this. In fact, some people are even doing a down after the contact piece to get the contact behavior.

[smileyzookie]

Im not sure why he wants her to sit, he just said to have her do it at the end.

 

We are doing weaves like this. I start at the side with her in front. I say weave she goes through one, i have hotdog on one side and say here... weave, here, weave ect till we're on the end and I treat her finally.

 

Can someone explain 2 on 2 off method? Im not familiar with alot of agility terms yet.

[Geoffrey]

Two on and two off (generally abbreviated as 2o2o, btw) is when the dog stops with it's back feet in the yellow contact area and it's front feet on the ground - two feet on the contact, two feet off. It's a way of ensuring the dog doesn't skip the contact and get disqualified (in competition), plus the contacts are there for safety reasons.

 

Of course, I do running contacts....but they don't work for a lot of people.

[Guest TheRuffMuttGang]

We are doing weaves like this. I start at the side with her in front. I say weave she goes through one, i have hotdog on one side and say here... weave, here, weave ect till we're on the end and I treat her finally.

 

Oh wow. Have fun maneuvering the weaves as 12 obstacles instead of one.

[Rosanne]

This class is like, totally 1989!

 

If it's for fun, do you even care if she hits the contact? Because if you think might show and you want your dog to have a consistent performance, it's probably a really really good idea to find a better instructor. . . There's got to be somebody with some experience and some equipment in your area that you could contact who might give you a few lessons on how to get going. . .

 

Subscribe to Clean Run too, there's lots of easy backyard training tips and exercises in there.

 

Back when I started agility, lots of people did weave training like that. . . it takes a long time to teach the dog, and the dog will pretty much always rely on your saying weave/here all the time. There really are lots of methods that work better AND are easier to teach (like "channels" or "weave-a-matics" - "2-by-2" is a GREAT method, BUT you need a little bit of training experience to really get it right, and the other 2 work just as well).

 

I spend several weeks just showing my dogs how to get on/off the contacts (slowly, on leash) before I ever introduce any kind of speed. Early speed often aggravates fear responses - the dog appears confidence but it actually running because they think if they stop they will fall off! (like if you crossed a log across a river!)

 

Then again, if you never EVER want to compete, and are just doing it for a good time with your dog, that's fine too and I wouldn't even worry about contacts.

[smileyzookie]

Oh wow. Have fun maneuvering the weaves as 12 obstacles instead of one.

 

LOL so negative!! She's actually done the weaves 2 weeks in a row now, and by the end of this class, I was cutting out "here" and just saying weave. Since I dont actually own weaves at home Im probably gonna have to do the "here" thing as a reminder, but she's a smart girl so she'll catch on.

 

Also sorry to be such a noob, but whats a running contact? Or maybe I should know what a contact is... I am confused. Do they have to sit or do something other than run the course only in competition?

[Rosanne]

though Piper did take some convincing that it was not a launching pad. This is where the backchaining was helpful. Now she thinks it's a waterslide.

 

RDM

 

Drifter took some convincing that it was not a launching pad. Don't EVER teach a fast border collie that it's OK to leave as soon as it hits the ground. Their definition of "hitting the ground" is rather loose, and generally includes the definition of "as soon as I get to the end". Drifter almost landed on the next jump once, he leapt off the end so astoundingly! (Now, of course, he patiently waits until it's about a foot off the ground, then shoves it as hard as he can when he leaves like "SEE- it DID hit the ground!!!"

 

I wanna do European agility - as long as they get to the end and wait a milisecond or two before they leave, it's good!

[Pat W.]

I too am kinda suprised at how fast you are progressing through the equipment even if you are only looking at doing it for fun. Normally people train for months before setting a toe on contacts of any type. Theres hindend awareness (ladder and perch training) targeting, simple jump chutes, tippy boards ect. My boy is a year old and is just seeing anything remotely resembling a contact. Here are a couple of terms you might fnd useful:

 

2o2o - already defined for you two feet on contact, two feet on the ground

 

ORT (one rear toe) one hind foot on the contact

 

Four on the floor - dog lies down on the ground momentarily after completing contact obsticle

 

Running contact - dog stides through both up and down contacts without stopping at the end

 

These are the most common types of contact training going on to varying degrees depending what region you are in. Being in Idaho you are in NADAC Nirvana as this is their home state. You may find that although RIGHT NOW you are interested in playing, that the agility bug will pop up and bite you. I strongly suggest that you train as if you were planning to compete from the start that way you dont have to go back and fix things later on. I would definately look into what type of agility background your instructor has for your own sake even if you never set foot on the competitive field.

[Pat W.]

I too am kinda suprised at how fast you are progressing through the equipment even if you are only looking at doing it for fun. Normally people train for months before setting a toe on contacts of any type. Theres hindend awareness (ladder and perch training) targeting, simple jump chutes, tippy boards ect. My boy is a year old and is just seeing anything remotely resembling a contact. Here are a couple of terms you might fnd useful:

 

2o2o - already defined for you two feet on contact, two feet on the ground

 

ORT (one rear toe) one hind foot on the contact

 

Four on the floor - dog lies down on the ground momentarily after completing contact obsticle

 

Running contact - dog stides through both up and down contacts without stopping at the end

 

These are the most common types of contact training going on to varying degrees depending what region you are in. Being in Idaho you are in NADAC Nirvana as this is their home state. You may find that although RIGHT NOW you are interested in playing, that the agility bug will pop up and bite you. I strongly suggest that you train as if you were planning to compete from the start that way you dont have to go back and fix things later on. I would definately look into what type of agility background your instructor has for your own sake even if you never set foot on the competitive field.

[Pat W.]

I too am kinda suprised at how fast you are progressing through the equipment even if you are only looking at doing it for fun. Normally people train for months before setting a toe on contacts of any type. Theres hindend awareness (ladder and perch training) targeting, simple jump chutes, tippy boards ect. My boy is a year old and is just seeing anything remotely resembling a contact. Here are a couple of terms you might fnd useful:

 

2o2o - already defined for you two feet on contact, two feet on the ground

 

ORT (one rear toe) one hind foot on the contact

 

Four on the floor - dog lies down on the ground momentarily after completing contact obsticle

 

Running contact - dog stides through both up and down contacts without stopping at the end

 

These are the most common types of contact training going on to varying degrees depending what region you are in. Being in Idaho you are in NADAC Nirvana as this is their home state. You may find that although RIGHT NOW you are interested in playing, that the agility bug will pop up and bite you. I strongly suggest that you train as if you were planning to compete from the start that way you dont have to go back and fix things later on. I would definately look into what type of agility background your instructor has for your own sake even if you never set foot on the competitive field.

[Pat W.]

eeekk!! stupid computer sorry bout the triple post

[Anda]

What is backchaining? I've read this expression on the thread I started about Ouzo's first class.

 

Oh, Ouzo fell as well from the small elevated dogwalk on his 3rd try, because I was trying to slow him down by holding the leash tight and he lost his balance - because of me. He then promptly went back and climbed it again with no hardfeelings Then the instructor told me to let him go at his own speed... yeah, that worked like magic... NOT: he was trying to fly off the dogwalk and launch himself from the top - at 60 mph

[PSmitty]

Also sorry to be such a noob, but whats a running contact? Or maybe I should know what a contact is... I am confused. Do they have to sit or do something other than run the course only in competition?

 

Pat explained a running contact already, so I won't go into that one. A contact means that the dog touches the "contact zone" (yellow) on the contact obstacles (dogwalk, teeter, A-frame). In competition, the dog is disqualified if they miss their contact (don't get at least a part of a foot in yellow). Most people teach a 2o2o, where the dog stops with their back feet *on* the contact zone, and their front feet on the ground. The dog holds the contact until released, as they get faster, it seems just a split second pause at the bottom, but they are hitting the contact. If you instructor is encouraging a sit at the bottom of contacts, that's just a really different method than what I'm used to.

 

I also like Pat's suggestion to train as if you wanted to compete someday, even if you never do.

[Root Beer]

Contacts made no sense to me whatsoever when I first took agility classes. Here we were getting our dogs all ramped up about going through tunnels and over jumps and now the instructors wanted us to stop them at the bottom of the A-Frame, Dogwalk, and Teeter.

 

But much later when I saw some dogs fly off the equipment halfway down, it suddenly made sense. The contact teaches the dog to get close enough to the bottom to get off of that piece of equipment safely.

 

There are scads of methods for teaching contacts. One is the "sit at the bottom" method that your instructor is using. One is the 2o2o that has been described in this thread. Another is to teach the dog to do 2o2o on a flat board on the ground and then teach it on the contact equipment and then eventually chain it into the slow down/stop at the bottom of the contact.

 

I've seen some people simply have a target with food on it on the ground very close to the bottom of the A-Frame or Dogwalk to condition the dog to always go to the bottom. Now I've heard of this technique of having the dog lie down right at the bottom of the contact piece.

[PSmitty]

Anda, backchaining is breaking a desired behavior down into small steps and working backwards. Let's say you want to send your dog over 4 jumps to a target at the end. If you start him at the first jump, maybe he'll take all four, maybe he won't. If you backchain, you start the dog up close, send him over the *last* jump to the target. When he does that, you move back behind the third jump, send him over 3 & 4 to the target. Then you move behind the second jump, until you eventually get back to the start. As RDM said, you can use the backchain method with contacts, too.

[Anda]

Ahaaaaa, thanks for translating, Paula!

[Root Beer]

Backchaining is a method that is often used for teaching sequences of behaviors. You wouldn't backchain a sit, for example, since it's a single behavior.

 

But say you want to teach your dog to run to the table and lie down on it as one behavior. First you would teach your dog to lie down on cue off the table. Then you would teach the dog to get on the table and lie down. Then you would teach the dog to lie down on the table after you move away at a distance. Once the dog is proficient at that, you would teach the dog to get on the table and lie down when you are close to it and again move away until the dog could be sent to the table and automatically lie down.

 

You started with the last piece and eventually the dog was able to complete the whole process.

 

ETA: LOL - Paula, I posted at the same time!! This topic is way too fun!

[MrSnappy]

 

Drifter took some convincing that it was not a launching pad. Don't EVER teach a fast border collie that it's OK to leave as soon as it hits the ground. Their definition of "hitting the ground" is rather loose, and generally includes the definition of "as soon as I get to the end".

 

In one trial, Piper learned she was light enough and fast enough that she can do the whole teeter without it so much as tipping. She thought this was great and simply launched herself off the top of it. I turned her around and did it again ... and again ... and again ... she was having a blast. A friend of mine swore he could hear her yelling "WEEEEEEEEE" every time. Eventually I put her on her contact at the end, then did the teeter one more time and she did it properly. The judge was killing herself laughing.

 

It also took Piper a bit of convincing that a) she could leap forward rather than straight up in the air - I can't begin to tell you how many jumps she landed on once she learned to leap forward, she had to take the JUMP, not the wing and c) she had to actually wait until the jump was there in front of her, and not sproing in the air the moment I said "go hup." Often that meant jumping NOTHING but air/imaginary, invisible jumps.

 

We started Piper with channel weaves, but out of necessity she got bumped to a much more advanced class and now just has to weave, since all the other dogs in our class are Masters level and we don't fart around. The downside is we have no offside weaves yet and she hasn't learned her foundations as well I would like. But I can't drive out there twice a week for classes, so we make do with that we have. The upside is that she is learning everything else so so quickly. She is advancing at a rate Tweed and his peanut brain could never have dreamed of.

 

Red Dog was always super sensitive to body pressure and I often pushed him off or past contact obstacles by being too close. Fortunately (?) Piper does not suffer from that malady. In fact, more than once she has knocked me over in serpentines or threadles because she simply leaps right at me, and I am too old to react swiftly anymore

 

 

RDM

[smileyzookie]

Red Dog was always super sensitive to body pressure and I often pushed him off or past contact obstacles by being too close

 

Thats what the trainer said Rivens issue is. I got away with it on the A frame because its so wide, but the dog walk is much more narrow, and I messed her up.

 

Im learning so much agility language lol. I feel like Homer Simpson who once said "aw, everytime I learn something new, it pushes the old stuff out" (or something to that effect)LOL

[Geoffrey]

On the topic of teaching the weaves one by one, rather than with WAM or Channels....

 

I ended up teaching them one by one because I could never get Zeke to understand the channels (my instructor was very unclear) and our club only recently bought WAMs....after I already taught Zeke how to weave. It *is* possible to transition from cueing from each and every pole to just saying "weave" and having the dog do it all by himself. I did it with Zeke and, truthfully, he weaves better than several of the dogs who learned with more modern methods....it just takes a lot of work to make the transition. Now he can weave as well as most competition dogs, although being a lab he's not *quite* as agile as a lithe BC. His footwork gets sloppy on occasion though - but I think that's more due to the differences in the sets of weave poles. Somehow the two places I go to have totally different weave poles with different sized poles and different spacing (I think one isn't regulation).