posessive over owner- REAL POST

[kelpiegirl]

I've NO idea what HAPPENED???????? Here is the text

 

Okay, this is totally my fault, for not nipping it in the bud. Lucy is becoming a real wench about other dogs coming near me, when I am say in the bathroom, or on the bed. She has upped the ante, but when I say "no" and push her, she growls louder at Kylie. This morning, I was in the bathroom, and Lucy was as usual guarding the door. Poor Kylie likes our morning "hello's", so none of those. Anyway, this morning, I told Lucy NO, as I am done with this wenchi-ness. Anyway, I also did a C. Milan finger out thing to get her attention. Well, since she was facing Kylie they broke into a fight. Kylie did NOT start this, but had to defend herself. No one has any injuries, but this just tears it for me. I think I have to a) not allow Lucy on the bed, cool.gif when in bathroom, not allow her near me c) basically, make her be one with the pack again. Does anyone else have dogs like this- who like to try to "own" their owner?

[Liz P]

I've never had a dog that tried to be possessive but I have had dogs that given the chance would be. I just don't tolerate it, if I see even a hint of wanting to be possessive I push the dog away and ignore it.

[bcnewe2]

Julie

this happens here when I've had one out working and maybe not the other. It doesnt' have to be working but something that I have one on one with the offending dog.

They come home with the "big head" attitude.

What I've learned to do with Mick is redirect him. My yelling or correcting him can make matters worse. But if I quietly say something that he has to listen to he'll forget he's playing troll. Then I can correct him if he starts again but he's not to the level that he was before.

 

For young Dew, she will start the same thing if we've had some one on one time. I quickly tell her "no" and make sure I love the one that she was trying to correct. I don't konw if that's right or wrong but it lets her know she's not the fav. It's working so far but she's sitll young and Mick's lil sis, I wonder if it's some what genetic in how they respond to pressure. A harsh correction will send Mick to the moon so I have to be sure he's in the right place to give one. Otherwise watch out other dogs. He has a temper! IF a fight does break out, it's much better if I don't start yelling or getting upset. I quitely walk to the dogs and correct both, mostly the one on top or the starter. That's my dogs, not others, I wouldn't trust getting involved with a fight that wasn't my own pack. A good rule I learned the hard way is:

Don't put in a fight what might get hurt. ie. hands, feet, or anyother part of my own body. My hand shows how hard of a lesson that was for me to learn. But the scar tells me it's my left hand at a glance.

 

Mick is the worse at door trolling, not letting anyone in or out his door. It's never allowed. If he starts I redirect him softly so I don't push him into the fight and then make sure he's not in the position to do it again. Mostly when I start to come out a door or invite a dog in, I'll start talking to Mick so he looks my way and things are averted before they start. BUt if he insists on the behavior I'm then in the postion to stop him from doing it.

 

Bed and bathroom growling is never allowed. If started, the offender is quickly pushed out of the "special position" not allowed where it started till I see a different mind set.

 

Hope that helps!

 

sometimes I think it's the work that gives them the big head. it's like we're bonding so closely while working they don't want any interuptions in our bond. Tough boobies. It's not working here. But they do try anyways!

 

Good luck

Kristen

[Root Beer]

I wouldn't actually use the situation as it occurs as the time when I train for this. I would set up situations away from the bed/bathroom to teach my dog to share his or her space.

 

One exercise that I've found useful is teaching my dogs to sit in a row and wait for treats. I do it as a game and there are no punishments. If anyone breaks the sit, the others get fed. The dogs learn pretty quickly how it works. In this case, I would start with the two dogs sitting as far apart as possible while you can still reach both of them, and gradually I would move them together. The end goal is to be able to have the two sitting side by side each waiting for his or her own treat.

 

Once the dogs had this game down, I would start to play it in the bathroom and near the bed (eventually on the bed), so the dogs learn that being near each other in those locations is a very rewarding thing.

 

Personally I don't use corrections for situations like this, but even if you are going to (actually - especially if you are going to!), I recommend doing some training outside of those situations to condition the two dogs to share space comfortably. If your dog learns that whenever the other comes along he is going to get shoved off the bed/out of the bathroom, etc. the reaction could become more intense. If your dog learns that sharing space with the other dog near you is rewarding, you can start to de-fuse the reaction a bit.

 

It's kind of like teaching a mild to moderate food-guarder to allow you to pick up his or her bowl. I start by approaching to throw good things into the bowl. Once the dog anticipates good things when I approach, I touch the bowl and put good things in. Eventually I lift the bowl to put good things. In the end I can pick up the bowl and remove it from the dog because I have conditioned a positive response.

 

You can do the same for space guarding with other dogs.

 

You can even use access to the bed as a tool in this. Maybe for a while, she is not allowed on. Eventually, she could be allowed on only when the other dog is there. This will also serve to teach her that the presence of the other dog is a good thing.

[2 Devils]

My toy poodle likes to guard me from other dogs. When he starts his growling and sometimes lunging I make him get away from me by putting him on the ground, making him go anywhere but where I am... When I am diligent about it he gets better but then I start getting lax about it.

 

I would suggest not allowing Lucy to guard the door or bed and if she starts being a lil witchy make her go away. Unfortunately, you will have to be much more diligent than I am since your dogs will turn on each other.

[Dixie_Girl]

I have the same prob with Skip. He only does it with Jackson, Missy, and (used to, RIP)Toby. Missy always would submit, Jackson just walks away, and him and Toby would end up in a fight. Whoever started it was the one who was locked in a room. Toby sometimes started it, and sometimes Skip. The prob is that, all areas of "people" guarding have been dealt with, except the bed. And I could fix that IF Jackson would cooperate!! I have tried forcing Jackson to stay on the bed, while I had Skip lie down on the floor, but the poor soul looks so nervous and worried, I just let it be. I figure, Jackson will stand up when it is important, (his toys, his hidey hole under the bench) so I figure the bed ain't that important. Jeeze. As far as the lining up of them to give treats, I've always done that! They are all good as gold. They learned the hard way! AND I don't just give it to them. I say their name and if any of the other dogs make a move, they gotta wait! So, merrily we muddle along.

[bcnewe2]

One exercise that I've found useful is teaching my dogs to sit in a row and wait for treats. I do it as a game and there are no punishments. If anyone breaks the sit, the others get fed. The dogs learn pretty quickly how it works. In this case, I would start with the two dogs sitting as far apart as possible while you can still reach both of them, and gradually I would move them together. The end goal is to be able to have the two sitting side by side each waiting for his or her own treat.

 

My dogs can all do that. I'm in control of the treats they know it so there you go. It's not always a guarding issues in our house. It only happens sometimes. I've traced it back to "special training time" like sheep work or an out of town trial for some and not the others. Again we call it the "big head syndrome"

I'm sure Kristine's way is a wonderful way and will work beautifully but sometimes I don't do the pre-training that others might. I take it as it comes.

 

My dogs are worked hard and trained hard for working stock. As long as we live in peace, I don't worry about much else. That's how we manage around here, maybe it's not a good thing for me to give advise when I can't say I've trained any of them for much else, other than peaceful pack living for all and working sheep.

Yes they do a few tricks but only ones they thought of that might gain them something they want. Not really picked or shaped by me but more rewarded by a behavior that I do that they like. (that just sounded like they are shaping me .

 

Their manners come the same as my kids manners did, cause I expect it, I get it, and don't do to much analizing about how. and no I don't beat my dogs or kids

 

Kristen

[Pippin's person]

Hamish and Rafe often make eyes and teeth at each other. There've been a few out and out fights--one this Sunday that resulted in a ripped up lip for Hamish--normally they are both just really slimed, but it's unpleasant and something we work hard to avoid.

 

There are several things in play--

1) they are still working out their pack relationship (actually, I think the relationship is worked out, but Hamish, who seems to be "lower" than Rafe, hasn't accepted the situation and continues to look for chances at a promotion--he invariably fails)

2) Hamish resource guards me if given the opportunity--but really only from Rafe.

3) they don't really like each other all that much (could be related to 1).

 

Hamish likes to sucker-punch--he basically hides under or behind things, making teeth and growling and when Rafe walks by (usually completely innocently), hamish jumps out and bites him on the hock. Rafe takes this kind of thing for days and then eventually snaps and nails Hamish. We work hard to redirect Hamish so that it doesn't get to that point. (Rafe isn't innocent in all of this--if you'll excuse the anthropomorphism--he's a real buttinsky and takes Hamish's stuff at any opportunity). Getting out the door is a real challenge and we've done a lot of work--though much left to be done--about calmly exiting the door.

 

Not much I can do about the pack dynamics--that's their deal. But, I've been working on asking them to be polite to one another as much as possible. When the googly eyes start, I call them both over for a sit nicely at my feet exercise--payoff is a treat or lovin'--if Hamish continues his rotten behavior, I walk away. I give LOTS of praise when Hamish behaves while Rafe is getting attention. I make Hamish move away from the things he's hiding under/behind. I move him away from boundaries like doorways. I walk away if it's about me.

 

I can't wait until they are grown-ups.....and I don't think I will again have two same aged dogs acquired within a few mos. of each other.

[kelpiegirl]

Thing is, these two really like eachother. They do goose control together, and play etc. Lucy and Kylie will groom eachother. But, get the bed involved (or the bathroom), and Lucy becomes a real bitch- to anyone. Everyone stays away from her, but she is getting noisier and pushier. Usually, if she growls, I make her get off the bed, and suddenly it's okay that kylie is on the bed, if she can be. But, with the bathroom, it is harder- closer quarters. Right now, I am just telling her to "go away" when she comes over with her tail up. I would rather she feel like part of the pack, then my owner, so that's what I am doing right now...

[NRhodes]

My suggestion is different than what others have suggested but this is what works for me- whenever one of my dogs acts aggressive at another I take them both by the scruff of the neck (if the other dog has not shown an interest in accepting the fight with the other, I may leave them alone, but if they've fought back previously and I've a notion they may do so now I'll put them on the ground too, just because they aren't the one letting out the first growl doesn't mean they're innocent) and hold them to the ground, growling, 'till they submit. Let them up and pet them, tell them they're good dogs, you don't want them to think that you're mad at them, just at what they did. If when you let them up the aggressive dog again shows dominance, grab them by the scruff and down them on their own this time, when they submit let them up and again tell them good dog and pet them. And by submit, I mean muscles relaxed and laying quietly, may or may not be belly up. There is no reason for one dog to be pulling rank over the other, I insist on being number one, and I try to be particular about not showing favors, making everyone #2 below me. When you ignore the aggressive dog and reward the one not picking the fight you'll just make the more (naturally) dominant dog, in this case Lucy, the more insistent on whipping the other dog into #3 spot and making sure she's top dog. Some dogs are just more dominant than others or have jealous/possessive/obsessive tendencies toward people or places that should not be tolerated.

 

I'd also wouldn't recommend using the word 'no' for corrections. Like you experienced this morning, when you said 'no' (and I'm assuming by your capitals you said it forcefully) all it did was incite the fight, any loud or fast word you might have said would have probably done the same. When we get upset or insistent on something we tend to say things fast, loud, and shrill (us ladies are often particularly bad in that regard), and 'no' is a short quick word anyway. It's just like in herding and you need to speed your dog up you'll say the command quickly, the dog naturally speeds up to the excitement and sharpness in your voice, when you want them slow you say the word slowly, lowly, and drawn out. That's why I use the growl, it's something a dog understands anyway, and is always going to keep the same low pitched corrective tone. In the situation you described, before the fight, I reckon I would have given a warning growl and when/if their attention broke I'd have said 'that'll do' and called them both to me, petted them both and dismissed them.

 

This is just the way I do things, use whatever you like. Good luck.

[Guest WoobiesMom]

I haven't had this experience so I'm just brainstorming at this point. Since you said they will sit next to each other and take treats, could you put them in a sit stay next to each other and practice going into the bathroom and making them sit stay a ways away from the door, like in a hallway, etc? Go into the bathroom for just a couple seconds at first and when they hold it, sitting next to each other without fighting, give lots of praise and treat. Then, continue to extend the stay to a longer and longer time. Maybe she would associate sitting next to Kylie when you're in the bathroom with some attention and a treat afterwards. You could do the same thing with the bed, get them both up there in a down stay before you get in and make them stay for a brief period then affection, treat and both get down at the same time.

 

Just a thought. I'll have to keep all of the above advice in mind in case I face any of these issues when I introduce my 2nd dog to the family. The only experience I have is a long time ago when my ex and I got two female littermates together and there really wasn't any trouble with them ever. Hope I'm as lucky this time around.

[stockdogranch]

I had two bitches who were the best of buddies. Absolutely adored each other. Really respected each other's work. Worked together as a brace a LOT and did it really well. Things were great unless/until we were in the house--then they were always circling each other and egging each other on. The problem was that one is my #1 dog, but the other really NEEDED to be the #1. The #2 dog just absolutely refused to believe she couldn't be top bitch. I tried everything--shaking scruffs, time outs for both, etc., etc., to no avail. The #2 dog was getting more miserable as time went on (over the course of almost 3 years), as she was CONSTANTLY vying for position. It was all about me--who mom liked best, if you will. The vibes in the house were really ugly. Eventually, I had to accept the fact that there would never be peace--the #1 girl WAS #1, and the #2 would NEVER accept that, so I had to sell the #2. It's been almost a year, and I still miss her every day. But the household is MUCH calmer and more harmonious, and the #2 girl is now #1 in her new working home, and it was the best decision, albeit the hardest, I've ever made. Hope you find another way, or it never gets that bad.

 

A

[Shetlander]

. I think I have to a) not allow Lucy on the bed, cool.gif when in bathroom, not allow her near me c) basically, make her be one with the pack again. Does anyone else have dogs like this- who like to try to "own" their owner?

 

That would be my plan. I ran into some significant problems with rivalry between Quinn and my Lhasa and the size difference really worried me. My obedience instructor urged me to rehome one of them and I did some preliminary checking for the Lhasa but he would be such a challenge to get into the right home (and no way could I give my Border Collie up). Anyway, my instructor pointed out quite correctly that my dogs were vying for the number one spot because I wasn't being a strong enough leader and hadn't made it clear to them that there were no openings for advancement. I had to be much more aware of the small things each dog did and nip the behaviors right in the bud. My instructor said if the dogs got into a fight, regardless of who started it, I needed to correct both (though I wouldn't in the situation you described with Lucy). These were physical corrections but not painful ones and I was always very calm when using them. I also used time outs after corrections for the worst behaviors.

 

My instructor also said she didn't let her dogs on the bed because as soon as she did her bitch became awful with the other two dogs. I didn't go to this step since my dogs have all been sleeping on the bed since they were puppies and the slightest snarking immediately got them booted off so they are almost always fine up there. After several months of greater vigilence and clearer leadership on my part, I'm happy to say the two boys are getting along much better. I doubt they'll ever be pals but for the most part they ignore each other which is all I ask. Still, I will always need to stay on top of their interactions and yes my home would be more relaxed if one of them wasn't here.

 

For the record, the Lhasa was largely clicker trained and we previously worked through several of his Lhasattitude issues with positive reinforcement and negative punishment (time outs in crate). But that approach just didn't cut it in the rivalry with Quinn. The Lhasa was too relentless in his bullying, there were too many opportunities and Quinn wasn't going to put up with it. I needed to up the ante and as a result the household is much calmer and happier today.

[bcnewe2]

Eventually, I had to accept the fact that there would never be peace--the #1 girl WAS #1, and the #2 would NEVER accept that, so I had to sell the #2. It's been almost a year, and I still miss her every day. But the household is MUCH calmer and more harmonious, and the #2 girl is now #1 in her new working home, and it was the best decision, albeit the hardest, I've ever made. Hope you find another way, or it never gets that bad.

 

Been there just done that. It was ok as long as I kept close watch. But the old girls that deserve their peace were so edgy that I had to let my younger wanna be #1 go to a different home. It's a bit lonely around here but I know she's happier and the old girls who think they own the world are happy again. They were getting so bad that niether wanted/would go outside. it was a battle of wills to keep peace everyday.

ya just never know whats going to happen and unless you're going to insist on hard rules all the time and all the time villigance it's sometimes better to place one.

Not that I think that's what's going on in Julies case but ya never know.

K~

[stockdogranch]

Been there just done that. It was ok as long as I kept close watch. But the old girls that deserve their peace were so edgy that I had to let my younger wanna be #1 go to a different home. It's a bit lonely around here but I know she's happier and the old girls who think they own the world are happy again. They were getting so bad that niether wanted/would go outside. it was a battle of wills to keep peace everyday.

 

That brought tears to my eyes, as I know exactly what you went through. And I still miss that dog, terribly, every. single. day. But everyone, including her, is happier,

A

[bcnewe2]

Tears of sad can turn into tears of happy. The old girls are lightening up as we type. Laying on the porch all streched out without a care in the world. And I hear from Ruby's new owner everyday. Ruby is getting all she ever dreamed in a happy home and it's so peaceful here I'm thinking maybe a new pup....no the DH might kill me. I hope Ruby's new owner is as happy as I am with the decision we made, right now I know she is!

 

Things happen and as long as we keep the whole picture and everyone's best interest at heart things have a way of working out. It sure helps that I'm getting updates at least a few times a day. As time wears on I'll feel better but I know Ruby's better off and the old biddys are just preening in happy old biddy dog rules. They have put their collective paws down and say never again can I bring an adult female into this home, maybe an adult male but only with their approval or neutered so they can impose biddy rules. Puppies are ok cause they can shape them into little rule followers but adult females only cause truoble in their kingdom.

 

How long has it been since your #2 girl has moved on? Ruby went to her new home via the finals. I worried the whole time till I knew she was home and pictures started coming in. Now it's just a matter of time till the empty heart hole gives way to warm heart memories and new Ruby stories.

 

Thanks for understanding. Unless you've done it. It's hard to understand. I used to let the type people who would say, how can you do that really bother me then I realized that they weren't living here and had no idea what we were going though. I only listen to my own head and people that understand now. At least till next time.

 

How's it going with bathroom time now Julie? They are capable of changing. My old girl will let others on the bed now where before that offence was maybe worth death. She can even let puppies kiss her mouth a few times before she snarls them away.

 

K~

[stockdogranch]

It'll be a year Nov. 16th. I had to put her on a plane from SoCal to Idaho. But she went to a friend of mine, who works her every day on her sheep and cattle, and trials her on cattle, as well. Within 2 months of going to her new home, she won the long go at the Denver Stock Show. She's done really well in her new home, so I am sure it was the right thing. But when I do setout, I really miss her. I used to use the 2 together as a brace, and they were really, really good together. Now I just use a single dog, but I have found that the now #2 dog, the queen's 17 month old daughter, does actually as well as the mother. So I alternate between the 2--5 sets with one, then 5 with the other. Since the #2 dog is her daughter, there's no problem--the daughter has always understood that the queen RULES.

 

I never would have thought I could let that one go, but it truly was the right thing to do for everyone involved,

A

[Pippin's person]

I've wondered if it's going to come to rehoming with our boys, but I'm hoping very much that our modification program will work and that growing up some will help (though I know it might make it worse). Our situation is complicated by the fact that one of them is more "mine" and the other more my S.O.'s.--but of course we all live together.

 

I know that sometimes rehoming is the best for all parties, but it does seem so gut-wrenching for the people (so much less for the dogs, those opportunistic critters...

[bcnewe2]

Since the #2 dog is her daughter, there's no problem--the daughter has always understood that the queen RULES

 

See that's what my old queen(s) say... If you get them young we can train them to believe we are queens and never challange or if they do challange we have a chance of keeping order. If you bring in an adult that doesn't know it's our kingdom how are we ever going to convince the other adult we're the queens and we rule!

 

I hadn't really gotten Ruby well started on sheep and what we did do, she was going to be to soft for me. But she's started has a good liedown, a call off and body pressure flanks with no words. Her new owner is just starting her sheep life so they will learn together and they will both be safe. That's my dream anyways. Do you see your girl at your friends? That might make it harder except hearing how well she's doing would probably only make me proud!

 

Pippins person

It can be done, espcially with males(imo). It's a matter of training from young on. I think 2 neutered males (neuter being the key word) can live together quite nicely. They don't have the bitch factor. But there are those occasional leaders that don't make good parthers ever. You'll just have to keep trying to find out what you got. If it were me, I'd neuter them both so I didn't have those issues. Maybe you could get away with only doing 1 but then you would I think sorta be picking the boss. Guess that wouldn't be so bad. If they're young they will probably work through it. My 2 male LGD's are best buds. Mick the bc boss rules them and they are happy being ruled. Guess he'd be considered the home king around here. He doesn't care who I bring home, they are all 2nd to him (at least in his mind) but the old queens even rule him. They trained him very young.

 

Have a great weekend everyone

K~

[Wendy V]

KG-

Okay-I'm going to go out on a limb here- but what about closing the bathroom door?

[bc4pack]

One of the simplest ways to alleviate resource guarding of a person is .... when the behavior starts, the

'resource' gets up and moves away. In the beginning it can be a pain; consistency, each and every time

but it will pay off.