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Advice on Picking a Breeder


jdarling
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Okay, I think there may be a bit of miscommunication here. I don't expect anyone to be able to evaluate the working ability of a dog at a trial if they are not experienced with working dogs and don't at least have some idea of what they're seeing. What I meant when I mentioned seeing dogs you might like had more to do with physical attributes, apparent personalities off the field, relationship with or behavior toward handlers and other people or dogs--that kind of thing. I did a demo last week and most of the people there asked if my dogs were heelers (especially Pip and Twist). We deliberately used as many different looking dogs as we could so that people could see that border collies don't necessarily look like what you see at Westminster (which was the standard people were using to judge my dogs). Someone looking for a pet or sport dog needn't even care how the dogs at a trial work stock, but they will get to see a bunch of different dogs, all shapes and sizes, various personalities, etc. They will get to see real border collies who happen to be doing what they are meant to do. Just seeing all those dogs can be a real education, even to the person with no idea about working stock. That's what I see as the educational value for non-stockworking people attending a sheepdog (or cowdog) trial. Well, that and getting to meet people who, for the most part, should be knowledgeable and might be able to help them find a reputable breeder.

I know what you mean Julie, and I agree.

 

Since I was talking about my trial watching experience, I just wanted to point out that while I actually had no idea of what to look at as far as work goes, that it was still a worthwhile experience.

 

On the other hand, I will admit it's intimidating to approach someone who has well bred border collies about a puppy, and I can see how *some people* would be resistant to try. If they're like me, who doesn't have sheep on hand, who would, at best, be able to work a dog on sheep once a week (but who is committed to that), maybe they're afraid that some working folks wouldn't give them the time of day. I'm not saying that happens a lot, but those are the people who will turn to a breeder they found off the internet with a slick website.

 

ETA:

 

Paula, I bet if you introduced yourself and struck up a conversation, at least *some* folks would be more than happy to talk with you--just don't go up to them when it's obvious they're getting ready to run. Since I feel strongly about helping people understand these dogs and their work, I always take the time to talk to spectators at trials. Some handlers are less approachable than others, certainly, but most aren't going to snub someone with an expressed genuine interest. As you're observing the trial, you can also observe the handlers and probably figure out who's approachable and who's not

 

Oh, yes, I totally agree. That's why I qualified my earlier statement with the fact that I didn't go out of my way to talk to anyone. I've no doubt that some people would be friendly and willing to talk. I was just hanging out watching, so I wasn't interested in chatting. But thanks for the reminder. :rolleyes:

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Since I feel strongly about helping people understand these dogs and their work, I always take the time to talk to spectators at trials.

 

She does, too. :D At my first trial, I looked over and saw this lady standing beside Twist - whom I recognized from her pictures in the Gallery - and figured it had to be Julie. I wasn't going to speak to her because she was first up that day and getting ready to run but she started talking to me. Well, probably because she was wondering whether the strange woman staring at her dog was some kind of stalker. :rolleyes:

 

Anyway, Julie introduced me to lots of people at the trial, all of whom were very happy to talk to me and my (at the time) fat furry little collie. And best of all, I got to cuddle baby puppies - Pip, Phoebe, Raven & Co. - till I almost had calluses. :D

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I think one of the biggest obstacles is that people wanting a companion dog are intimidated by "serious" stockdog handlers. There is a perception, valid or not, out there that working folks will not want their dogs going to nonworking homes or that working-bred dogs will be too difficult to handle for the average pet owner who has no plans to work stock. I hear both these concerns over and over again. I think somehow breaking these steretypes might go a long way toward fixing the problem. I really like ShoresDog's suggestions of being more blunt and spelling things out a bit more for people. I think any increased illumination on what the situation is--anything that might shorten the journey from ignorant to educated--would help...

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What I meant when I mentioned seeing dogs you might like had more to do with physical attributes, apparent personalities off the field, relationship with or behavior toward handlers and other people or dogs--that kind of thing

 

After doing agility for four years, and knowing my dog backwards and forwards, good and bad, I can really see how this would be true. I think I could get a feel for which dogs (well their offspring, potentially) would fit me and would be the kind of agility dog I'm looking for.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and express two conflicting thoughts I've had about buying a well bred pup. I'm not sure which one is right, but I'm really getting some good input from this thread.

 

First, I've always sort of assumed, and had a gut feeling I guess, that for me, a non-working, sport household, buying a well bred pup from working lines would be "wasting" that dog's potential. I would obviously spay or neuter, which would eliminate the possibility that my well bred pup would continue it's good bloodlines. That seems like a waste of a great dog, to put it bluntly. Maybe that's stupid and you can hit me over my virtual head for thinking it, but maybe it's an issue that should be addressed for those come to this board looking for a way to buy a pup. Do responsible breeders with working dogs ever feel that way?

 

Second, (here's the conflict with the first idea) if people like the one in the thread that started this whole discussion don't buy pups from working bred dogs, then pretty soon the situation becomes like someone described in Australia in a different thread, where you can only get conformation bred dogs for a pet home. Maybe if more of us went to trials and sought out well bred pups for our pet homes, then working bred pups would become the standard and edge the poorly bred dogs out of existence. It's simple supply and demand, and maybe I'm wrong about this too, but it seems like a simple idea that I should have understood a long time ago. Though I don't know what effect this would have on the number of dogs in rescue situations. It seems like there are always going to be idiots that neglect, abuse and throw away perfectly good dogs. But I do see the value to the whole breed in seeking out a working bred pup.

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Maybe I'm just feeling curmudgeonly, but I just don't think there's a lot more that you can do to persuade someone to buy a carefully bred BC from working lines than what already exists here and in some other places.

 

I find getting people to come just to see trials is sometimes like pulling teeth. There are quite a few trials in S.E. Michigan and I invite people all the time--few come. They like the romanticism involved in imagining "sheep herding" but that's often it--and this is even from folks who have border collies themselves.

 

I've also talked to people (well, o.k. one person) who was looking for a BC puppy who didn't want to come to a trial because she didn't want to step in sheep poop. I've talked to a number of people who don't want to deal with people who have working dogs because they've heard rotten tales about working dog folks from conformation and sport breeders.

 

I'm not trying to start up that discussion--only saying that even people who are very serious about doing their research may come to a different conclusion than what those committed to preserving the working border collie would hope and no amount of careful rhetoric can change that. Also, sometimes you just can't know what you don't know because of where you are on the learning curve. I didn't think any serious breeder of working dogs would "waste" one of their pups on a home like ours. I know now that isn't true--but at the time, I didn't.

 

Two of our dogs are sport-bred. We did a LOT of research about the breed and talked to a lot of people before we got the first one (Pippin). It was just that the research we did and the people we talked to were biased toward sport breeding. With Pippin in particular, we got her to play flyball.

 

We were persuaded by the argument that if you want a flyball dog, look at other flyball dogs you like and get one like them. We didn't come to these Boards until after we had her, and it still took some time before we really got the differences between breeding for livestock work and breeding for other activities. We got Hamish as we first started out learning about livestock work--but at the time, we were learning from an AKC-style trainer (and one who was generally biased against border collies interestingly enough). Every other border collie at that training facility was conformation-bred.

 

If we'd come here first, I like to think we'd have done things differently, but I don't know that we would have because I don't think we were quite ready to internalize the arguments about it, and, like I said, we were persuaded by the people we knew face-to-face and what we saw them do with their border collies. This is just my experience, but I use it to underscore the point that even having the information out there, people will make all kinds of decisions and there is only so much you can do to persuade them.

 

On the other hand, I know someone who bought a dog from a certain, infamous breeder in Tennessee because he'd heard BCs were smart, cool dogs. When he decided to get a second one, he "happened upon" an internationally renowed Welsh breeder on the Internet. That breeder didn't have any problem selling his extremely well-bred, working line dog to a pet home (and as far as I know, all the negotiations were done electronically). Of course, that pet home is turning into a working home, which only reinforces the rule that once you have a BC, you will almost certainly get pulled into the BC-lifestyle vortex.

 

And certainly, there seem to be as many stories about people who came here looking for a BC and listened to the advice they got and ended up with either a great rescue or a well-bred working-line puppy as there are those who didn't (though of course those who didn't tend not to stick around here). Maybe those are the stories to focus on.

 

Practically, I think Jodi's original suggestions were excellent--if there was a single sticky (not a series of discussion threads) that had information about what people generally see as red flags with breeders and that folks would see immediately on coming to the boards--maybe right under the "read this first" announdement, that might be helpful.

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First, I've always sort of assumed, and had a gut feeling I guess, that for me, a non-working, sport household, buying a well bred pup from working lines would be "wasting" that dog's potential. I would obviously spay or neuter, which would eliminate the possibility that my well bred pup would continue it's good bloodlines. That seems like a waste of a great dog, to put it bluntly. Maybe that's stupid and you can hit me over my virtual head for thinking it, but maybe it's an issue that should be addressed for those come to this board looking for a way to buy a pup. Do responsible breeders with working dogs ever feel that way?

In my mind this is a question for the responsible working breeder to answer for themselves. If they feel that selling a particular pup to a non-working home would be a waste then they won't/shouldn't sell you that pup. On the other hand if they are willing to sell you their working bred pup why shouldn't you jump at the opportunity? You're not forcing the breeder to sell you their pup; you're offering a home that they must then decide is right for their pup. Many working breeders are looking for a pup or two for themselves from a particular cross; they choose their pups from the litter and then find homes that they are happy with for the rest of the litter. You could be such a home, or you might not be right for that breeder's litter. The only way to find out is ask.

 

Mark

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Melanie, I think it's really risky for a newbie to try to find a breeder through emailing with breeders they find online. I think you're overestimating how much savvy someone has at that stage. "I thought I had done my research" is a constant refrain from people who contact me after buying a dog from a puppy mill, and I believe them -- they did think they had done their research. They are just not in a position to assess a breeder the way we are (through no fault of their own whatsoever). They can look at a website that would raise a festival of red flags for us and see only a caring, dog-loving experienced expert. S/he's been breeding for 20 years! All the testimonials are so convincing! All the pictures are so appealing, and after all pictures can't lie! And on the phone s/he was so knowledgeable! I think it's safer just to tell people never to choose a breeder via the internet, unless they have other, totally independent, expert corroboration that that breeder is a good one. I do hope (and believe) that this forum functions to help at least some people in getting such independent information.

 

Hi Eileen,

 

I agonized a bit before posting that and I'm still sort of agonizing about it. I guess what it comes down to is that there are some people who get it, who are going to exercise their critical thinking skills, and are not going to become part of the problem -- newbie to the breed or not -- and for those people, being able to use a communication tool that allows them to open the lines without having to go straight to the (sometimes extremely intimidating) step of a face-to-face discussion might make the difference between them approaching a good working breeder at all or not.

 

I am not advocating choosing a breeder purely on the basis of email communications and information from a slick website, although my post probably sounds that way. I know it can be hard to tell sometimes, but I'm actually kind of shy and it intimidates me to approach people I don't know personally in contexts like this. There are probably a lot of people who are shyer than me who are even more afraid to talk to people at trials. Coupled with the intimidation factor (for some reason a lot of people seem to think working dog people are scarier than other kinds of dog people), it means that folks might get driven to less selective or responsible breeders simply because the social anxiety factor isn't there. There are less intimidating ways to make initial contacts with people, like email, but that doesn't mean that a prospective buyer is then off the hook for doing all the other things s/he should do to evaluate the quality and responsibility level of a breeder.

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I think one of the biggest obstacles is that people wanting a companion dog are intimidated by "serious" stockdog handlers. There is a perception, valid or not, out there that working folks will not want their dogs going to nonworking homes or that working-bred dogs will be too difficult to handle for the average pet owner who has no plans to work stock.

 

It's not only people wanting a companion dog -- it's people wanting a sport dog as well. I knew people in agility who would say they didn't want a working-bred dog because working dogs are too "hyper" or "herdy" (there's a word I'd be happy never to hear again). When I tried to encourage sport people, with sport Border Collies, to attend a sheepdog trial, they didn't want to go because they were afraid "the herding people will be mean to me." (That is a direct quote.)

 

Where this comes from, I have no idea. I have competed in sheepdog trials and in agility. The sheepdog world, by far, is the more open, social, and welcoming. When I started going to sheepdog trials I didn't even have a dog to run. I was going to clinics, and volunteering at trials, to learn everything I could about working a dog, and so I could get to know people -- taking my crazy red dog with me -- and never met anyone who was anything but supportive and encouraging. "When are you going to run that crazy red dog?" they'd ask. I'd laugh and shrug. Everyone was down to earth. People would assign me plum jobs so I could learn more. I got to scribe a lot, I worked in set out pens. One of the reasons I became so interested in working dogs is that it was such a nice world to be in, not only because of the dogs, but because of the people. Since I depend on other people for access to sheep, this is a very important factor.

 

The agility world was and is such a far cry from the sheepdog world for me. Outside of the club that I trained at (which was very supportive) and people I knew from there (who were pretty uniformly awesome), no one had the slightest interest in me or my dog at trials. Everyone sat with their friends under their own canopies and no one went out of their way to talk to or get to know anyone else. Everyone was full of herself and too cool for school.

 

Being constitutionally incapable of sitting and doing nothing at events, I would volunteer to work at the agility trials too, so I'd run leashes or scores or whatever and end up hearing the kinds of things that people only say when they think no one important is listening. The worst thing was hearing, over and over, competitors, volunteers, scribes and timers, comment witheringly and contemptuously on each run: "I don't know why she bothers with that dog, he's a piece of trash." "Look at how fat she looks in those shorts." I couldn't believe it. What was wrong with these people? It sounded like a high school girls' locker room.

 

Of course the day came eventually when I was walking out of the ring with Solo and I heard those comments directed at us. Solo had spooked at the judge, so I took him over another couple of obstacles and then excused ourselves from the ring. As we were leaving I heard someone say, "I have no idea why she runs that dog, he's a piece of trash. I saw him do that at another trial too. She should get another dog." If I hadn't had Solo with me, I would have torn her a new one -- but I don't want Solo to think violence is OK, so I held my breath and kept walking away.

 

I became uninterested in agility competition. Agility became something that Solo and I practiced alone, and we liked it that way. It is truly a shame, because Solo revels in agility and is very good at it, but he doesn't care about titles and really, neither do I. So it made no sense to subject ourselves to that nonsense.

 

Would I EVER think of approaching these kinds of people to ask about puppies? No freaking way.

 

Maybe that's why sport and pet people are afraid to approach handlers at sheepdog trials. They think everyone operates like the people I encountered in the agility world: catty, condescending, and full of themselves.

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I think one of the biggest obstacles is that people wanting a companion dog are intimidated by "serious" stockdog handlers.

 

Absolutely! I think this is a big piece of it.

 

I could be wrong, but I personally don't have the impression that a purely-positive clicker trainer whose dog sport of choice is musical Freestyle and would be well received as a puppy buyer among many serious stockdog handlers! :rolleyes::):D

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Oh Melanie, that is so upsetting that you had that experience at agility trials. :rolleyes: You should try CPE! It's geared more toward people who want to have FUN, not just compete seriously, and we have a lot of fun cheering for ANY good thing someone's dog does. We host two trials a year and everyone is so nice and friendly to each other. Of course there are always a couple of snobs, but we all know who they are and just ignore them. I've been to the ultra serious, catty kind of trials you described (in the more "serious" venues), and maybe that is how I thought herding would be, and it seemed intimidating. Good to know it isn't!

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Clara, the cattiest trial I went to was a NADAC trial. Yup, NADAC. And the sad thing is, we LOVED NADAC. I really liked the big open courses and short course times and games (especially the ones where the judge doesn't follow you around and stare at your dog!). The time someone called Solo trash, though, that was at a big USDAA trial. I wish now that I'd told the judge about it, or some other trial organizer, but they probably wouldn't have cared.

 

We don't do agility now because Solo's retired and I'm short one agility dog. I'll try again with a new pup, but I don't expect to make any friends doing it.

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Also, if we want to be completely honest, some of the "serious" handlers can be intimidating. One look at "the other board" would be enough to put off many folks. Heck, I've been involved in the working stockdog world, as a novice anyway, for more than three years and I'm way too intimidated to post there, even if I agree with most of what is said there...

 

But I guess that is not the majority. And it's probably unlikely that those new to the breed and looking for a puppy would find themselves there anyway, but the attitude does exist. Maybe it's best to stress that some folks are receptive and others are less so? In person, most people are actually quite nice and approachable, and at every trial I've gone to, folks are often talking to those less experienced with working border collies.

 

I don't know what the answer is. I'm not even sure what my point is. Sorry, I guess I'm just thinking out loud and rambling now...

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I could be wrong, but I personally don't have the impression that a purely-positive clicker trainer whose dog sport of choice is musical Freestyle and would be well received as a puppy buyer among many serious stockdog handlers! :rolleyes::):D

But haven't we been saying just the opposite? Sure there are some who wouldn't give you the time of day, and their litters are usually advertised "to working homes only," but there are others who *would* consider you. It's been said numerous times in this thread.

 

LauraE,

The "other board" isn't any more populated by "serious" handlers than this one is, so judging what a serious handler's views toward a newbie might be based on what you read there is not basing your judgment in reality. That board happens to foster a more "exclusive" culture (in that ridiculing new folks or those who don't share your views is not actively discouraged, nor do they tolerate purely pet types, which is fine, since that board is geared toward a different sort of person), which is why you might find it intimidating. Also remember that people will say online things they'd never dream of saying to you when face-to-face, so you can't really judge *any* handlers by what they may write on a forum. (I've met people from that forum in person and have talked with some via e-mail, and in those instances they seemed quite different than the persona projected on the forum. The same holds true for people on this forum.) I think you answered your own comments when you state that people at trials are generally very kind and accessible.

 

J.

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Laura -

 

Please don't think that "other board" is representative of the stockdog world. For the most part, the people on there talk a lot but aren't actually out in the Open trial world. Look some of them up on the USBCHA points list - you'll find very few of them there. This board is actually populated by many more Open handlers than that one is. I read that board but refuse to post there because i find it to be a very mean-spirited place.

 

I actually wish there was a place that was more of a "middle ground". A lot of times i get tired of the zillion and one off topic, cutesy stuff on this board, yet i really dislike the atmosphere on the other. And sheepdog-l seems to be leaning more and more towards the mean spirited atmosphere too. I *like* that this board is more welcoming (really i do, we all started somewhere and i was one of those pet people once too!), i just wish sometimes that the focus was just a little tighter.

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Also, if we want to be completely honest, some of the "serious" handlers can be intimidating. One look at "the other board" would be enough to put off many folks. Heck, I've been involved in the working stockdog world, as a novice anyway, for more than three years and I'm way too intimidated to post there, even if I agree with most of what is said there...

 

Oh, heck yeah! I get my feelings hurt just lurking over there! :rolleyes: (kidding! I'm kidding, in case they want to make fun of me later... :D )

 

If I had only seen the "other board", I would suppose that working folks are just like Melanie said about agility people, "catty, condescending and full of themselves". And no way in hell would I think of approaching anyone at a trial. Luckily, thanks to this board and the kind, helpful people, I know better.

 

ETA: Robin and I were posting at the same time. Thanks for that input, it's good to hear.

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If I had only seen the "other board", I would suppose that working folks are just like Melanie said about agility people, "catty, condescending and full of themselves". And no way in hell would I think of approaching anyone at a trial. Luckily, thanks to this board and the kind, helpful people, I know better.

 

That's part of the reason i kind of wish we had a little bit tighter focus here and all the off topic, silly stuff (ice cream flavors, i mean really) was on something like bc-l, which really is a pet BC place (or maybe even on an ice cream board, i don't know :rolleyes: ). I think it's a shame that the other board is seen as the "working board" and this one as the fluffy silly one, when in reality there are more Open handlers posting on this board and trying to be welcoming and helpful and not just being jerks to anyone who isn't in the "in crowd". What some of us do here gets lost in the reputation of "fluff" that this board seems to have now. I think that's a shame.

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Thanks for that info, Robin.

Actually, I have seen the great disparity in online personas and real-life interactions. One of the more bruising debates there involved people I know and who definitely know each other, and what happened online and what happened at breakfast at Meeker were polar opposites. That's what I meant about in-person interaction being different...I do understand that the focus of that board is not to hold the hands of people new to border collies...I'm just saying that some working folks can be kind of intimidating to those with less experience and I'll let it go at that.

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I think it's a shame that the other board is seen as the "working board" and this one as the fluffy silly one, when in reality there are more Open handlers posting on this board and trying to be welcoming and helpful and not just being jerks to anyone who isn't in the "in crowd". What some of us do here gets lost in the reputation of "fluff" that this board seems to have now. I think that's a shame.

 

 

I agree.

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I like variety, it reminds us that sometimes, despite the illustrious pedigrees, trialing ups and downs, and day to day of farming....that they are just dogs, and we are just human.

 

And Julie's right, she's nothing like she is here in person. I mean, really....she Swedish, 6 feet tall, and people call her a Elfreda. And Lark really weighs 80 lbs, has blue tinted fur, and is called BlueBell. Yeah, like the ice cream. Really. :rolleyes:

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I mostly lurk here and also on that "other board" but I'm coming out of lurkdom to ask if anyone wants to take bets on how long it'll be before this conversation is the subject of thread over there???

 

I tried to register there once to post some trial info and eventually ended up being the subject of one of the "woe is me, I do so much and take so much abuse" threads in which the list owner accused me of being "nasty" in an email to him. :rolleyes:

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And Julie's right, she's nothing like she is here in person. I mean, really....she Swedish, 6 feet tall, and people call her a Elfreda. And Lark really weighs 80 lbs, has blue tinted fur, and is called BlueBell. Yeah, like the ice cream. Really. :D

 

:D Julie and Lark have been outed. Where is that jumping up and down laughing emoticon when I need it???

 

In my experience, the majority of the open handlers and farmers I've met have been very warm and welcoming. Sure, there's always going to be some people that aren't - but a lot of times I wind up getting to know them after all and find out they're perfectly nice folks after all... just not particularly social at first. I can certainly see where it could be intimidating though. My first ever trial to watch was Seclusival, and I think I maybe managed to eek out about 10 words, and maybe one whole coherent sentence (which was to tell Christine that I couldn't shake her hand because I'd sneezed on mine :rolleyes: ). OK, so maybe even that sentence wasn't coherent. :D I was totally awestruck.

 

At any rate, initially I had no earthly idea what kind of dog I'd want - or who to ask. I just knew that regardless of what I planned as to my future with border collies they needed to be working bred, or rescued. One of the steps (IMO) to getting a dog is getting to know the folks that are producing them. Get to know them, get to know their dogs - and start figuring out what you're looking for. Some working breeders won't sell to pet homes, and some will. It's a good thing for me that some will. :D

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But haven't we been saying just the opposite? Sure there are some who wouldn't give you the time of day, and their litters are usually advertised "to working homes only," but there are others who *would* consider you. It's been said numerous times in this thread.

 

Oh, definitely! Just because I have gotten that impression, doesn't mean that would truly be the case.

 

If, in the future, I truly feel that I have a need for a baby puppy and that, for some reason, rescue won't be the best place to go for that puppy. Or if, as is more likely, my husband insists on a puppy from a breeder after Speedy is someday gone - I am very glad to know that there are those good working breeders who would be open to selling to a great pet/sport home that I can seek a puppy from.

 

I guess my point was that if I feel that way to some extent - even after reading your excellent replies and explanations - how much more "daunting" it would seem to someone who is totally new to the breed and/or board.

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People would assign me plum jobs so I could learn more. I got to scribe a lot, I worked in set out pens.

 

Are you busy second weekend in Oct? Anyone else who considers working in the setout pens a "plum job" and would like to visit beautiful Minnesota in October, come on down.

 

Pearse

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Setout pen is a GREAT novice job (if the novice can be trusted to not totally freak out the sheep I guess). It's the only one where you get to interact with the sheep in any sense and depending on who's in there with you it can be a great learning experience for starting to be able to read sheep. In my case, I didn't have a dog that I trusted to take into the pen with me (in retrospect Solo would have been good in there but I didn't want to take the chance that he was going to rile up the sheep) so I had to be the dog. How often does someone who only takes lessons get to do that?

 

Another novice job I enjoy a lot that does require a dog is pushing out to the setout team. It involves more real work than exhaust, but the potential for disaster and/or everyone hating you for screwing up is much lower than other dog-related jobs like setting out.

 

Can I collect DNA in beautiful Minnesota in October?

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For those of you who have not met Melanie...she is the cute Asian with the brightest smile!! She says she is shy???? but I think she is outgoing and funny as heck. I have seem how much she loves her dogs and any pup that goes to her will get a fantastic home.

 

I have been approached at trials by Novice people who seem to think they are bothering an Open handler by asking questions. I make a point of chatting with them and tell them, "You know once I was in your shoes and an Open handler was kind to me" .... and one day, you will be an Open handler and a Novice person will approach you and the cycle starts again.

 

 

When I judge I usually ask a Novice person to scribe for me. That way they have the best view, and then have an idea of how runs should (or shouldn't) be like.....now some of the Novice people now are my good friends.

 

Diane

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