Questionable Obedience Experience

[bexie]

Today was Molly's second obedience lesson. It was the third class, but we missed the second one because I was sick (couldn't really talk). There were 7 dogs in class today and Molly was not doing well with other dogs. First time she was not comfortable with them, but this time saying "Hi" also involved baring teeth and growling on her part and she did a lot of barking throughout the lesson. The lessons, BTW, run for about 2 hours--not constant work, but with lots of sitting around listening to the instructor in between where the dogs are expected to be relatively quiet although not in a fast sit or anything. Molly is probably about the average age and she just turned 10 months old. At least one is a much younger puppy and some are older. Only one other is a BC. We're outside in a large field so I tried to keep Molly at a pretty good distance and ended up walking her a bit to distract her when she got into barking and "that'll do" wasn't enough to settle her (it usually is when she gets barking at something here at home).

 

One of the last things we were supposed to do in the lesson was to work on walking with the dog in a decent heel. He didn't expect a perfect heel but he wanted a relatively decent one with a loose line. Molly is not good at this at all. I can often get her to go okay on a long loose line, but not a heel, especially if she is tired. By this time in the lesson, she no longer cared AT ALL about treats. She'd had more than enough and she in't that food oriented to start with. So his "use treats" method wasn't working at all. I have hip problems that make it impossible for me to do the "frequent turn" method I've read about on here. She is a lot better here at home than she was out there. There were these other dogs everywhere...

 

So the trainer took Molly to show me what to do. She has a choke chain but he did adjust so it couldn't choke (we do that a lot too. I don't want to discuss pros and cons of using a choke--that isn't the main issue here) (mentioning it so you understand the noise and the effect of what he is doing most clearly). Then he walked with her and gave small yanks on her collar whenever she didn't go right. Almost immediately, Molly was more crawling that walking but still dragging ahead of him. I don't know how to describe the look on her face but it wasn't pleasant. It looked a lot like total surrender and fear. He would praise her but I have no idea what for because he still kept giving those small noisy yanks in her collar.

 

Then he gave her back and said she didn't break. She still wanted to go ahead. I don't think she understood any of it.

 

We've now been home for almost 5 hours. My BF and I are starting to feel like she's acting like herself again. All this feels wrong to me. Am I overreacting or is this standard procedure for obedience training?

 

BTW, he then did a similar round of training on a much younger black lab puppy....

 

Thanks.

Rebecca

[kelpiegirl]

I have given obedience lessons, I have taken them. I took MANY before I taught (years), and what I learned after being there and doing that, is that you need to make lessons short, and set things up so that the dog will succeed. I always instruct my students, etc., that it is BEST if you handle your own dog. Giving your dog to someone they don't know does not set the dog up to succeed. The dog may perform as requested, but he will be stressed, and this will not lead to learning- rather, avoidance of the person, which may appear like success. What I would do is 1) go to the obedience session for only 15 mins. Work on short sequences of awesome behaviour, and then break. Seriously- break every few minutes. Then, take a break. Sometimes, just go and watch a class with your girl, and treat her for paying attention to you, and being calm.

Also, you be calm. Don't worry about her being a nut when you go in there, just have a plan for what you will do when you walk in, and stick to it. Don't get nervous or worried, just do your plan. It is a lot to take in, and take it slow

Julie

 

Today was Molly's second obedience lesson. It was the third class, but we missed the second one because I was sick (couldn't really talk). There were 7 dogs in class today and Molly was not doing well with other dogs. First time she was not comfortable with them, but this time saying "Hi" also involved baring teeth and growling on her part and she did a lot of barking throughout the lesson. The lessons, BTW, run for about 2 hours--not constant work, but with lots of sitting around listening to the instructor in between where the dogs are expected to be relatively quiet although not in a fast sit or anything. Molly is probably about the average age and she just turned 10 months old. At least one is a much younger puppy and some are older. Only one other is a BC. We're outside in a large field so I tried to keep Molly at a pretty good distance and ended up walking her a bit to distract her when she got into barking and "that'll do" wasn't enough to settle her (it usually is when she gets barking at something here at home).

 

One of the last things we were supposed to do in the lesson was to work on walking with the dog in a decent heel. He didn't expect a perfect heel but he wanted a relatively decent one with a loose line. Molly is not good at this at all. I can often get her to go okay on a long loose line, but not a heel, especially if she is tired. By this time in the lesson, she no longer cared AT ALL about treats. She'd had more than enough and she in't that food oriented to start with. So his "use treats" method wasn't working at all. I have hip problems that make it impossible for me to do the "frequent turn" method I've read about on here. She is a lot better here at home than she was out there. There were these other dogs everywhere...

 

So the trainer took Molly to show me what to do. She has a choke chain but he did adjust so it couldn't choke (we do that a lot too. I don't want to discuss pros and cons of using a choke--that isn't the main issue here) (mentioning it so you understand the noise and the effect of what he is doing most clearly). Then he walked with her and gave small yanks on her collar whenever she didn't go right. Almost immediately, Molly was more crawling that walking but still dragging ahead of him. I don't know how to describe the look on her face but it wasn't pleasant. It looked a lot like total surrender and fear. He would praise her but I have no idea what for because he still kept giving those small noisy yanks in her collar.

 

Then he gave her back and said she didn't break. She still wanted to go ahead. I don't think she understood any of it.

 

We've now been home for almost 5 hours. My BF and I are starting to feel like she's acting like herself again. All this feels wrong to me. Am I overreacting or is this standard procedure for obedience training?

 

BTW, he then did a similar round of training on a much younger black lab puppy....

 

Thanks.

Rebecca

[MrSnappy]

Gah. A 2 hour obedience lesson? That's extreme. I don't know very many dogs who have the focus or stamina to do this for two hours, especially young dogs.

 

I don't really know what your trainer was trying to accomplish, but I can't imagine that a scared dog who is exhausted from over-training is going to learn much with leash pops if she is belly crawling. I say find a new class.

 

RDM

[kelpiegirl]

I don't know PEOPLE who want to do that for that long!

 

Gah. A 2 hour obedience lesson? That's extreme. I don't know very many dogs who have the focus or stamina to do this for two hours, especially young dogs.

 

I don't really know what your trainer was trying to accomplish, but I can't imagine that a scared dog who is exhausted from over-training is going to learn much with leash pops if she is belly crawling. I say find a new class.

 

RDM

[Kim M]

All this feels wrong to me. Am I overreacting or is this standard procedure for obedience training?

 

BTW, he then did a similar round of training on a much younger black lab puppy....

 

How did the younger black lab pup do? Were the results similiar to Molly's?

 

Trust your insticts. Sometimes the teacher is not a good fit to the student. Do you have other training school choices were you are?

 

Good luck and keep us posted

 

Kimberley

[G. Festerling]

If the dog reacted that negativly to the corrections than yes it was wrong for her. If it was just too soon, she did not understand, too long or whatever the cause, it was not good.

If you come up on an animal that needs to "break" (and I hate that word and its implications) then good timing, fair corrections and obviouls solutions to the animal are even more crucial. That kind of animal has to work through some issue and it can not if it is in a shut down state of mind.

If you get that kind of animal it is even more important that the trainer knows and is willing to use more than just one way of training. At this time he may have to completly go out of his comfort zone in order to do right by the animal.

If he can not adjust there won't be a good result.

[bexie]

This is the only place I can get lessons in anything that I consider a reasonable driving distance for basic obedience. Molly already can do a lot of what basic obedience is for, as far as I understand it--sit, lie down, stand, come when called. What she needs is socialization with other dogs, especially dogs bigger than she is, and walking decently on a leash. She's been doing much better on a leash at home anyway and it isn't top priority for us. The main goal of signing us up for this class was for me to get more confident and comfortable as a dog trainer.

 

Is this sort of correction in general considered acceptable? Am I overreacting to the correction and possibly reading more into Molly's reaction? You guys weren't there to see what Molly did so maybe I am misreading her signals and this was just normal dog way of saying "yes, you're the one in charge" and I'm overreacting?

 

If this were a horse, I wouldn't want to be giving this hard a signal... not yet anyway and a horse is a much larger and much more dangerous animal in many ways, but I'm taking the class to learn. AARGH! I hate quitting things and I just dropped out of a Danish class because I couldn't get along with the professor after 2 weeks of class so I don't want to just quit. But something in me is saying "this isn't the right way to teach Molly."

 

 

The lab didn't seem to be doing much better but I didn't really get the chance to study her. I was trying to keep Molly busy and get her doing things I could praise her for so we could go home on a good note. I still couldn't get her to heel properly, so I turned a lot and got her doing lots of sits and heres instead so I could praise her. I'd decided to leave if he said anything about doing the wrong thing but I didn't want to start a war so I'd have said I wasn't feeling well (which was true. I was pretty miserable myself at that point).

 

When I signed up for class, they split us into two groups based on size. The other group quits after an hour and seems to include more play and socializing in their breaks. But Molly is too big to get them to let me in there. :-(

 

From what my trainer said today, I don't think Molly will be getting a lot of socialization out of class. He seems to plan to keep them apart most of the time.

[Michelle K]

This doesn't sound good to me. I've been on both sides. Will the trainer allow you to use something other than the choker? Like the Gentle Leader head halter? I like it better for corrections on pulling, but let me give a little reason behind that. I'm in an obedience class right now with one of my Shelties, and this trainer prefers a choker or martingale. With this particular dog, the GL works much better on her, and my trainer did tell me that if I can train her with it to go ahead. She's training for competition, so I have to make sure that I can wean her off of it. Molly sounds like she is a sensitive girl based on what you described. If she is, then she's like Nykie and our Shelties, which means that the popping of the lead, which is what a lot of trainers call that, only makes them fearful instead of understanding what is expected of them. I, personally, suggest using the GL at first, at least, until she gets used to all of the distractions around her. This is, of course, if the trainer will allow it. If there were other trainers in your area, I'd recommend looking for another one...one that focuses more on positive reinforcement instead of force. I hope this makes sense and helps a little.

[Guest WoobiesMom]

I don't think you're overreacting and I can imagine just what you're talking about with Molly's reaction. Woobie had a similar one when I tried correction training when he was younger. Even now, we just started w/the pinch collar and literally, I've given 5 corrections total. It's not the way I want to train and the collar is more of a "hey, listen up, this is serious work" reminder than anything and it's used VERY sporadically.

 

Given your hip trouble, I could suggest two things that might help with heeling. Heeling is good and important, especially if you have a health issue, being pulled is probably the last thing your hip needs. Irene here described a backing up method, but I don't think I understood exactly what she was saying so I just used it in a way that worked for me and seemed to make sense. Whenever Woobie got any tension on the leash (for loose leash walking) or if when given the heel command, if his shoulder got more than maybe 2 inches past my knee, I would stop and just start walking backwards. I'd look straight forward, not say anything to him and as soon as he turned and started walking towards me, I would begin walking forward again and give the command, either "Walk" which means no pulling for us or "Heel" if I wanted him right beside me. The thing my evil mind liked about this maneuver was that it was him spinning around all the time instead of me. That change direction thing made me dizzy!!! Well dizzier than I normally am.

 

The other method I use for heeling is a heel stick. Now I'll warn you, if you're out and about, you might get some looks, but it works. Walking Woobie with his pinch collar and a stick in front of his chest had people thinking I must have a vicious dog! The stick is maybe 3 feet longish, you can use a dowel but I have alot of trees and there's always little twigs about so I used one of those that was the right length. You hold the leash in your left hand, give the heel command and start walking. If she starts to pull ahead, the stick held in the right hand just swings sideways (imagine the swinging thingie on a grandfather clock -- like that) until it's in front of her chest to give her a little tap (and I mean little, like you would tap a grandma on the shoulder to ask a question) and repeat "heel". It's just like a little physical barrier that helps keep them in the place you want them. Kinda like those leash holders that stick out from the sides of bikes so the dog can run beside. Once she's heeling nicely, swing the stick back to your right. Initially, Woobie kept trying to duck under it to pull ahead but after about 10 minutes he got the drift and heeled nicely for 3 miles!

 

Hope this helps. Not all dogs (especially border collies, I've found) respond to the traditional training methods that are found in most schools. And I think 2 hours is way too long! Our class is an hour but the real training time is usually 30 minutes tops, the rest of the time is for questions, explanations, people testing, etc.

[Tassie]

I would say trust your instincts. If it feels wrong for you and the dog, chances are it is not a good fit, and you could end up harming the relationship between you and your dog. You do not want to do that.

 

2 hours - yikes - I have trouble concentrating for that long, let alone trying to pass messages along to my dog as well. IMHO, waaay too long. Sounds like by the time your trainer took Molly, she was probably too tired and stressed to really learn anything.

 

I totally agree with Julie - in my instructing, as well as training my own dogs, I alsways try to set the dog (and handler) up for success, and emphasize the importance of patience, and of rewarding a good attempt, and then gradually shaping up to the behaviour you want.

 

Sounds to me like you'd be better off just working on your won - there's lots of good positive training articles and lessons out on the internet and/or on DVD or in books.

 

Since it doesn't seem like she'll be getting much useful socialisation at the class, IMHO, you'd be better off trying to do that in other ways - do you know any people that you could set up walking/play dates with?

 

Oh, and another thought - if Molly's anything like my bitch, the tireder and more stressed she gets, the more snarky with other dogs she might get.

[bexie]

Thanks everyone for your responses. I think I am much better prepared for next Sunday now. I am still going, but no way is the trainer putting his hands on Molly's leash again no matter how much trouble I have teaching her anything. If he doesn't accept that, we'll leave, but he's not touching her again. She went into panic and hid Sunday night when I touched her collar to show my BF exactly how he'd clipped the leash on and it made noise. We'd both been playing with her at the time and she ran off ignoring both her rubber bone and hedgehog, which isn't normal Molly at all, and it took us a bit to reassure her enough that my BF could touch and even more for me to be allowed to touch her. That isn't Molly. She's sensitive but she isn't normally like that with a typical correction. My BF has corrected her with the leash before without this sort of reaction and she takes a good strong NO without a problem. It isn't like we baby her and never correct her. But I think in this case she just didn't get what he wanted from her and probably was confused and stressed out from 7 dogs that she wasn't feeling friendly about to begin with.

 

My BF works with another instructor at this club (Danish Civilian Doghandlers is my rough translation) and she doesn't think this guy usually goes overboard on corrections. We definitely can't get our money back (it would be nice, but the more important thing is Molly's well-being). He also talked to another highly active member out there (he actually works with at least 3 of them, but the 3rd is currently on night shifts), who said something along the lines of "it is better for her that she gets broken now rather than later" so my BF is not particularly happy about the training attitude. He also gave the guy a lecture on how damaging similar treatment is on horses (guy just got horses and this is one place where BF is definitely the experienced person) and that you don't want to BREAK the animal but teach it in a positive way.... So I don't know how much I will end up getting out of this class, but I will try a little longer. BF is going with me on Sunday if he can and will also try to work with Molly on heeling because he can physically more than I can (I've only been asking him to do this since we got her...).

 

My basic plan for obedience classes now is:

 

1) Trainer is not allowed near Molly's leash or collar. We use a choke because she is happier with it than with a harness to limit her pulling when I walk with her. We've got it on properly so it does loosen and it is fitted properly (by more sensible people than my trainer at the club). She needs a bigger one soon and we can exchange this one free. It has a lifetime exchange guarantee for getting proper size and can even be swapped for right size for use on another dog.

 

2) If Molly starts acting like it is all too much for her, we leave even if class isn't finished. I can always say I am sick (hip pain) to avoid arguments. I have no interest in starting a big fight with my trainer. I've had enough fights lately.

 

3) Molly doesn't NEED a perfect obedience heel. It'd be great if she had one, but I don't care if it takes me 5 years to teach her. I'm not going to do it by breaking her spirit and she learns nothing while belly crawling. We're not planning on competing in obedience. We'd like for her to learn to herd. Her recall and down and basic working relationship are much more important. There is no reason to destroy that with bad training to meet an artificial ideal that is irrelevant to her needs. Especially not for meeting it in a hurry just because it would be convenient to him. For my HEALTH, I need her to learn not to pull. That's a different issue and one we've been making a lot more progress on. "WAIT" helps. As does "SIT" and "HERE" when she gets too far ahead and intent on something.

 

My BF is probably going to give the trainer a lecture on keeping his hands off our dog. He is really upset about what I say. Yes, I could be overreacting, but he can also see how much not-herself Molly was after we got home. She wasn't like this last time. Last time she was tired but her personality was normal. She didn't freak out if we touched her collar. She wasn't overreactive to scolding afterwards.

 

Thanks everyone for confirming my concerns. It helps to be confirmed to trust my instincts. I worry I'm just being an overprotective doggy mother (which is also what some of my BF's coworkers tried to tell him I am) who will keep her dog from becoming a useful and functional adult dog.

 

Of course these other people didn't see Molly in the entryway of the place we got her all pulled together in fear, trembling, and peeing on everything. They didn't hold her the whole ride home and feel how unsure she was. They didn't see her hurry under the kitchen table when we came home. They didn't watch her blossom in the first few days as she found out that nothing bullied her or growled at her or anything. They haven't had her come and lick their snotty noses while they lay on the sofa sick and feeling miserable then have them lie down on the floor and keep guard while they slept even though her much loved male person was home.

 

Sorry. Babbling. I just so love this dog.

[Zoe]

Oh, I feel for you so much. You are not overreacting and I really wouldn't go back. I want to write more but I have to go. Please just get out of there if you get any inkling that something is not right. It is just not worth it. Best wishes.

[Michelle K]

Bless her heart. It sounds like you have a good plan. Something that I always go by is that no matter which dog I'm working with, this is my furkid, and I am not going to put any of them in a situation that I don't feel good about. If I'm on edge, they will be too. Nothing is worth making them fearful. It's one thing for them to need their confidence boosted a little, but not to the point of shutting down. I wish you the very best of luck! Hope everything works out. Please keep us posted.

[Bo Peep]

2 hours is a long class. I'd lose interest. My lesson's are 1/2 hour long and it's all work, a little talk, but mostly work. But this isn't the first dog I've put through them. This is the toughest dog- LOL. A correction with a pinch doesn't faze him. My others would be yelping and down to a crawl like yours. It depends on the dog. I have a great trainer. I never doubt her. If you find someone you can trust and believe the same things they do, stick with them. I've had the same obedience trainer through 3 dogs. Just love her.

[Root Beer]

I don't think you are overreacting. I think your gut feeling is right on.

[shatchp]

Ollie, at 7 months, is barely good for an hour in class...he gets pretty fidgety and bored after 40 minutes or so. We'd never make it 2 hours. Training should be a pleasurable, fun experience, I think...for you and your dog. If it's not, for either of you, perhaps some changes are in order.

 

Trust your gut...no one loves that dog like you do.

[Tassie]

Hey Bexie

Sounds like you and your BF have worked out a good plan - and it's great that he's on the same page as you in relation to better ways of training than 'breaking' - either dogs or horses. You're absolutely right - IMHO - your good relationship with your dog is key to everything you are likely to want to do with her, and absolutely key to her being a great companion.

 

A couple of things - as far as training to walk on a loose leash is concerned. I get that you can't do the turn and go thing, but I'm guessing you could do the stand still and wait for her to notice that there's no forward movement happening. As her head turns to you (and the leash should slacken a little), give your reward marker - click or 'Yes' - and treat her. (Have good treats - soft but not crumbly, and in small bits, so that you can reinforce quickly and often.) Make sure she knows you have treats, and let her be clear that pulling gets her nowhere and nothing - no response from you other than stopping - and any slackening of the leash and/or attention to you gets her a reward marker and treats. It takes a little while, but she'll get it, and you'll be building, rather than damaging, the relationship between you and her.

 

I would also be working on the collar sensitivity thing - again with lots of very yummy treats. As you practise little call fronts (baby recalls), have treats in one hand, and as you treat, reach forward UNDER her chin with the other hand, and touch the collar, treating for that too. Lots of repetitions of this should help to overcome her worry about having the collar touched. Make sure you reach under the collar at first, not over her head.

 

It will be interesting to see how she approaches the training hall this time. It will be important for you to be pretty upbeat (no 'poor Molly') - how good an actress are you .

 

Oh, and another thing - if you have to use any sort of a training collar (as opposed to a normal flat clip or buckle collar), is it possible for you to use a martingale or limited slip collar - much kinder to the dog? (Again JM prejudices showing here .)

[bexie]

Do you have any URLs for the types of collars you are talking about? I am not familiar with a martingale for dogs at all. For horses, yes, but not for dogs.

 

The financial advantages of this chain overruled my preference for a limited choke one, but we instead often clip it on so it can't choke. When she was younger, my BF had rigged a stop on her chain so it couldn't choke, just tighten a bit, but he hasn't had that on since before we started class. I think the stop he had wasn't big enough for this size collar. It could sometimes slip past and that risked locking in a choke. I will talk to him about getting a bigger stop and putting that on.

 

I appreciate the recommendations--they're recommendations given kindly and I can consider them. I do want the best for Molly. I hope to get her back on a fast leather collar once she is manageable on a leash and done growing. My BF got a bit frustrated about the number of times he had to make a new collar when she was growing. She still is, because this one is about due to be exchanged for the next size.

 

I wish it were possible to find a better trainer around here, but I guess it isn't. I really couldn't afford to just sign up for a class and end up with another bad trainer. :-(

 

I think I will try Woobie's Mom's stick suggestion. It would give her a hint of what I want. Otherwise I will see if BF can't soon find the time to do some work on her leash walking. He's been promising to do it for ages but has been very busy working on the house. He spends a lot of time playing with her and she loves him, but he just doesn't get time for those walks.

 

Thanks again. And from Molly too. She just doesn't know what all she needs to thank you for.

 

BTW, she seems okay with her collar now. We've both been working on it since she reacted badly. Lots of positive reinforcement.

[Tassie]

Bexie, that's great that she's good with her collar now - well done!

 

Here's one link which shows what the martingale collar looks like Martingale.

 

As I was looking for links, I remembered another option for dealing with pulling, recommended by US trainer Pat Miller. She likes the front clip harness (where the leash clips on in front of the dog's chest rather than on its back as in a traditional harness.) Here's a link to one example Front clip harness and another one EasyWalk harness.

 

Good luck.

[bexie]

Thanks! I will show my BF the front clip harnesses. I can really see the logic in those. If she pulls ahead, it will turn her back to me. Going forward will be much more fun if she is next to me, where I want her.

 

They don't allow harnesses at the obedience class, but I don't care if she learns to walk nicely there. Hopefully I can get some other useful things out of class. We were feeling like there was improvement here at home after the first class. But if he keeps pushing her with unacceptable types of correction, there won't be any point continuing. It will also bother me to watch him do that to dogs other than Molly. I won't be able to sit and watch and say nothing if they also react negatively. I realize dogs differ. A hard-headed and strong-willed dog may need that sort of correction. But Molly is a soft dog that can't take it.

 

That sounds reasonable, right?

[Tassie]

A hard-headed and strong-willed dog may need that sort of correction. But Molly is a soft dog that can't take it.

 

That sounds reasonable, right?

 

Sounds right to me - but then I'm a mainly positive trainer - and I like to train in ways which make for fun for me and the dogs.