aggression at the vets-anyone else have it?

[KJ]

Hi there-

I have posted about this maybe a year ago or so but since there's many new folks that have joined, I thought I'd ask again. I feel like I am the only person on earth that has a dog that is aggressive at the vets. I realize most dogs are not.

 

In order just to get shots (and he needs his teeth done desparately) we have a variety of drugs on hand...that is 4 alprozalam prior to the visit, then dormitor and torbitol during and the reversal drug too...enough that Shep needs 2 days to fully recover from the whole trauma. He is muzzled with a metal basket muzzle. But just to get near him to give the shots is a huge ordeal and takes about 4 veterinary staff and it's just very hard on all involved but mostly Shep. One opinion from a behaviourist is that dogs, when it comes down to it, need very little vet care really. This has never sat well with me, although it is the way it has turned out anyway. We've been kicked out by 2 vets and now we're working with someone really willing but he's her first. She has the scars to prove it. I find it remarkable that most vets seem to not know how to deal with these cases. Granted, they are doing quite well so to put staff and themselves at risk isn't worth it I suppose. But, does it make sense to euthanize a dog that's terrified to be vetted? Or is it in the dog's best interest? I feel really torn by this.

 

Regarding desensitizing him to the vet by going every day or so and doing meet and greets has not been possible thus far b/c I work, my husband works, the vet is 35 min away. This approach is still the plan its just so difficult to accomplish.

 

Also ACE is not an option and I am pretty sure its why he's the way he is in the first place.

 

So, I guess the main reason for this post is to see if anyone else has had this issue and to see how they deal with it.

 

Thanks for any advice or insight etc.

 

Kim

[learning_to_love_BCs]

Hi there-

I have posted about this maybe a year ago or so but since there's many new folks that have joined, I thought I'd ask again. I feel like I am the only person on earth that has a dog that is aggressive at the vets. I realize most dogs are not.

 

In order just to get shots (and he needs his teeth done desparately) we have a variety of drugs on hand...that is 4 alprozalam prior to the visit, then dormitor and torbitol during and the reversal drug too...enough that Shep needs 2 days to fully recover from the whole trauma. He is muzzled with a metal basket muzzle. But just to get near him to give the shots is a huge ordeal and takes about 4 veterinary staff and it's just very hard on all involved but mostly Shep. One opinion from a behaviourist is that dogs, when it comes down to it, need very little vet care really. This has never sat well with me, although it is the way it has turned out anyway. We've been kicked out by 2 vets and now we're working with someone really willing but he's her first. She has the scars to prove it. I find it remarkable that most vets seem to not know how to deal with these cases. Granted, they are doing quite well so to put staff and themselves at risk isn't worth it I suppose. But, does it make sense to euthanize a dog that's terrified to be vetted? Or is it in the dog's best interest? I feel really torn by this.

 

Regarding desensitizing him to the vet by going every day or so and doing meet and greets has not been possible thus far b/c I work, my husband works, the vet is 35 min away. This approach is still the plan its just so difficult to accomplish.

 

Also ACE is not an option and I am pretty sure its why he's the way he is in the first place.

 

So, I guess the main reason for this post is to see if anyone else has had this issue and to see how they deal with it.

 

Thanks for any advice or insight etc.

 

Kim

[OurBoys]

Wow, Kim. I've never seen a dog that aggressive at a vet's office before. With the hours you and your DH work, would it be possible to have someone take him to the vet's for you for desensitizing?

 

I wish I could offer more advice but I've never had this problem. Sorry. But before you have him euthanized, please consider giving him to a rescue service. Maybe they can work with him to overcome his fear.

 

BTW, what state to you live in?

[Guest LJS1993]

I really feel for you. I have been there and done that many times with my dear departed Shadow. She needed to be muzzled, tied up, and put out completely before the vet could even get near her. She was a great dog that I unfortunately did not socialize properly.

[Guest Freckles LaLa Mom]

anyway the vet will teach you how to vaccinate, or would he make house calls?

[KJ]

Rescue won't take him. I tried every avenue under the sun to find him a home and this was prior to knowing the exent of his damage. We've had him for 3 years now. We love him very much. We've been to behviourists. He was dx'd with impulse control aggression. When we first got him (that is, we took him from across the street where he was hit often and neglected) he was a biter. But now, I think he's snapped once in last year. Keep in mind that we keep him under very strict management...or our best version of that. He doesn't go into the public or even in our neighborhood he stays in the yard. He's never met a child. He's quite sheltered and it often makes me sad. He really is great. But I keep in mind what everyone else tells me, that he's 'lucky' that we took him, b/c a shelter would've killed him...that at least he has the life he does...but there's two sides to that ya know?

[learning_to_love_BCs]

One of my two recently adopted border collies has similar problems with the vet and I've been dreading having to take him back. Mack is fear aggressive anyway, and having a strange man (or woman) touch him, hurt him, etc. is just not something he can tolerate. He goes into a panic state and becomes completely unmanageable by anyone (though I can get him to calm down if we're alone in a room together). It's awful.

 

I'm wondering why you say that ACE is bad. This is what I've now been told to use by everyone (vets, the Milo Foundation from whom I adopted Mack, etc.). I just figured I'd have to will myself to sedate him heavily, put the muzzle on -- and then get through it. But I've really worried about what I would do if he were hurt out on the trail or something like that. I carry a muzzle and ACE in my car--but still....

 

So, I completely empathize. But since a dog only needs to go to the vet very infrequently anyway, it seems like something could be worked out. Can he be sedated by you enough to get there and then given a shot to completely knock him out once he's at the vet's?

 

I agree that before euthanizing him you should look into the rescue foundataions (Milo, Best Friends, etc.) who might be willing to take him.

[KJ]

Oh and I am in Maryland.

 

A vet had to do a home visit and this vet was great, as he was willing. Shep fell on his neck while landing from a jump and a day later couldn't walk. It took 4 of us to hold him down. The tech was bearing so hard on his neck his tongue was purple. Shep was making sounds, screaming kind of, as i have never heard. A few weeks of pain meds and prednisone and he was better.

 

About being taught to do shots: I am beginning to think that is my only option. I just thought if a trained slew of professional couldn't do it, why would I be able to? He thrashes about so much. He has to be vetted outdoors. Regarding a vet coming to the house: I never wanted that b/c I didn't want Shep to ever associate anyone that comes into the house as a potential threat. It took about 2 years for him to be alright, pretty comfy with people. This is people that come to our house are dog saavy and they get stern instructions ( as we hand them wine) to not look at Shep, ignore him, don't touch him and then when I feel he's cool with them, they give him salmon or something scrumptious.

[Guest LJS1993]

Euthanizing a dog that has vet issues is absurd. Shadow (RIP MAY PEACE BE UPON HER) had the same issues you mention. However, otherwise she was a great dog. There is no reason to PTS a dog that has vet issues such as those you mentioned and I have gone through.

[OurBoys]

Is Shep crate-trained?

[Genie]

From what you've posted, it sounds like your dog's problem extends beyond the vet's office. It does sound like its the result of lack of proper socialization rather than from abuse. While you can work on socialization if you have time and have some improvement, there's no substitute for the socialization he should have received as a pup before you got him. I don't think that trips to your vet just to desensitize or socialize will help at this point.

I would not use ace with him. It can increase aggression in some dogs. As a former vet tech, I have seen dogs like this and in defense of the vets and techs, there really isn't much they can do to make it easier on the dog.

Unfortunately, some things can't be fixed. Managed and improved to varying degrees, yes. If it comes to the point that you can't keep him, I would not turn him over to rescue as some have recommended. Its not fair to the people who would get him next and it would be very stressful on your dog.

[KJ]

We are NOT considering PTS. He's our dog. Our family member. We all have been through a tremendous amount together. I just had to find out if others have had to deal with this. I never want Shep to be in the place where no one will help him---ie when he couldn't walk as described above, the I called the emergency vets and they said they wouldn't take him--they didn't have the staff or the time...so we waited. It's such a tough and frankly lonely road with a dog like Shep and I just want to make the right decisions for him. I just never want him to suffer ya know. He's had plently of that.

 

From what I was told, ACE is an anti-paralytic. In a dog that is already fearful/aggressive it puts them in a state where they can't move, defend themselves, but they are fully aware of what's being done to them. It exacerbates the fear/aggression. From Sheps records he didn't have this issue until after his first experience (that we know of) where they used ACE. I don't know if this holds true for normal dogs or just ones with issues already.

[KJ]

From what you've posted, it sounds like your dog's problem extends beyond the vet's office. It does sound like its the result of lack of proper socialization rather than from abuse.

I believe it is both b/c I saw him being smacked around, that's why I took him. I do know he spent the first 2 years penned outside 24/7 and that;s until we took him. He had big issues with men.

[KJ]

Is Shep crate-trained?

Yes he is.

[OurBoys]

Have you ever taken him to the vet without pain being involved? Has he ever just been boarded there? I don't know if you can afford it...maybe talk it over with the vet and see if they will give you a discount....but board him there about once a month or two. Let them talk with him, feed him and walk him. Let them show Shep there's more to going to the vet's than getting stuck with a needle. Also, do they have female vets?

[KJ]

Have you ever taken him to the vet without pain being involved? Has he ever just been boarded there? I don't know if you can afford it...maybe talk it over with the vet and see if they will give you a discount....but board him there about once a month or two. Let them talk with him, feed him and walk him. Let them show Shep there's more to going to the vet's than getting stuck with a needle. Also, do they have female vets?

 

Well, he will bite them it's pretty guarenteed. He's so suspicious. I am supposed to be desensitizing him but going as much as possible, everyday at best and just doing meet and greets, hanging out, building the time up slowy for about 6 mths to a year of this. But, to our fault, it hasn't been done enough.

 

Our vet is female and she is a superstar in my eyes. She's courageous and doesn't let failure scare her. We are very lucky so far. In fact we've been really lucky with various professionals along the way. Some have been an utter disaster, some benign and a couple have been integral to our lives and we will be forever in their debt.

 

Thanks for the ideas tho.

 

Kim

[AK dog doc]

This is a tough situation to be in. I seriously question the statement "dogs don't really need that much vet care anyway" (was this a boarded veterinary behaviorist? If so, I'd find another one. If not, they're not qualified to make that kind of statement.) That's a pretty broad remark and I'd say by and large it's pretty misleading, and very often not true. At the very least, it's not really helpful; what do you do when it's clear you DO need medical care? That's really the issue, not how often it's needed, so I find that statement to be less than helpful.

 

Ace doesn't control their fear so much as make them less able to respond to it, so they're still having fear and anxiety, but they can't do so much about it. Some dogs will actively get worse under these circumstances. That's probably why Kim is reluctant to use it (in addition to which, it's a questionable drug to use, IMO, if you can't listen to their hearts to begin with, as it has potential cardiac side effects.) My opinion is that it's an inappropriate use of that medication - but that's just my opinion.

 

Real life is that it really truly DOES take longer to manage a dog with the kind of fear and agression issues you describe. Safety first, and to safely handle a dog like this does take extra hands and extra effort. It's not your fault that he's like that - that problem was on board before you rescued him - but that's unfortunately where you are now, so it's what you are dealing with at this point. They probably aren't trying to be a pain about it, but to let you know realistically what they're set up for.

 

Not being able to see him, it's very hard for me to advise you, but I'll outline our approach for such situations. We do see a number of agressive dogs here, some extremely agressive. My usual approach is to get in and get out as fast and easily as possible from the dog's point of view, putting as little pressure on them as I can and still get the job done. I generally have the owner muzzle the dog (which you already do), have the owner restrain the dog's head enough so I can get in and get a quick listen to the heart, give sedation appropriate to the procedure, and then leave the dog alone and stop messing with him until the meds take over (the owner stays with the dog during this part). Once the meds take effect I'm no longer terrifying the dog, so he feels better, the owner feels better, and we can proceed without risking serious career-ending inury to myself or my staff. I finish my physical exam with the dog asleep and I try to get everything done all at the same visit so the dog isn't in need of another visit right away. I often have the owner wait while the dog wakes up, or else have the dog back in a more secluded (therefore less-stressful) run before he recovers from anesthesia, and I have the owner go back and take the dog out of the cage, to minimize the amount of handling stress we put on him.

 

That's just what works for me... it doesn't mean it's the only way to go.

[Guest WoobiesMom]

Kim, I don't have any suggestions but wanted to let you know you have my sympathies and admiration for doing all you can for this poor dog! I'm so sorry you and Shep have to go through this

 

Good luck!

[Geoffrey]

I may have missed this, if it was already stated, but is he only like this at the Vet? Or does he have issues with other people touching him as well?

[KJ]

I may have missed this, if it was already stated, but is he only like this at the Vet? Or does he have issues with other people touching him as well?

 

Its severe at the vets. It used to be iffy with anyone if they say, moved their arms around too fast he'd snap. He bit my husband a few times (purple marks) in the beginning. But upon instructions, most folks don't pet him they just play with him...ball, frisbee. We were kicked out of the kennel that used to take him-that's right we don't go on vacation anymore-b/c he would try to bite the people if they went near his collar.

[Tassie]

Kim, I admire the work you've done on Shep - it can't be easy.

 

I've read some stuff on a bulletin board here about the increasing use by vets here of a thing called Dog Appeasing Pheromone in their offices. It's a diffuser, and there seem to be good reports of its effectiveness in reducing the stress levels in general of the dogs there. I think there might even be a DAP collar available now. A search will find a number of sites which talk about it.

 

Seems like one of those things which if it does no good, will likely do no harm, and might be worth discussing with your vet.

[nancy in AZ]

Kim, was the behaviorist you took Shep to a vet/behaviorist? I can't recall if he'd been prescribed daily anti-anxiety meds? I ask because the first thing the vet/behaviorist I took Boo to for a consult asked me was if I would be opposed to putting him on daily psychotropic meds. One of our goals was to raise his threshhold for triggering before doing any exposure exercises with him. I've written about some of our history and experiences here before. Feel free to Email me privately if you want any details.

 

I so admire your commitment to Shep. I know how bumpy a road it can be and how easy it is to be discouraged when it's two steps forward and one step back. I also know there is nothing that beats the feeling of seeing how far they've come from where they started.

[bexie]

This might be a stupid idea, but maybe you can expose him to things related to a vet's office and a vet visit without as big a time investment sometimes. Dogs are so sensitive to smells, maybe it would help to accustom him to the smells of the cleaning products and other similar things? What about getting a tape recording of noises from the waiting room and using them sometimes?

 

Just a thought. The more he is comfortable with, the less he will react to. Maybe he could get positive associations to some of these things.

[painted_ponies]

I generally have the owner muzzle the dog (which you already do), have the owner restrain the dog's head enough so I can get in and get a quick listen to the heart, give sedation appropriate to the procedure, and then leave the dog alone and stop messing with him until the meds take over (the owner stays with the dog during this part). Once the meds take effect I'm no longer terrifying the dog, so he feels better, the owner feels better, and we can proceed without risking serious career-ending inury to myself or my staff. I finish my physical exam with the dog asleep and I try to get everything done all at the same visit so the dog isn't in need of another visit right away. I often have the owner wait while the dog wakes up, or else have the dog back in a more secluded (therefore less-stressful) run before he recovers from anesthesia, and I have the owner go back and take the dog out of the cage, to minimize the amount of handling stress we put on him.

 

I used to own and handle chow chows for other people, and this was the procedure we followed with the ones with issues - which was about 99% of them in those days. I found the more of the procedure I did without vet or staff putting their hands on the dog, the less stressful it was for everybody. Active owner/handler participation and a firm belief in better living through chemistry worked well for maniacal chowzillas.

 

It's not hard at all to give your own DHLP-P vaccinations. You just pinch up some skin and slip the needle in. It's not hard at all to give yourself DHLP-P vaccinations either, BTW. I for one will never contract distemper. Rabies, though is a little trickier - plus it doesn't do you any good to give the shot because, at least in SC, you have to show proof from a vet that it's been given. But rabies vacc's last 3 yrs so at least it's an infrequent trauma.

 

Oh, yeah - do I understand correctly, that your dog injured his neck and a vet tech was restraining him by putting pressure on his neck? I don't blame him for screaming at her!

 

Best of luck. I know how it feels to get expelled by the vet. And the kennel. And once in my case, actually, the neighborhood. But to paraphrase Lendon Gray, it's the difficult dogs that have the most to give you.

[SoloRiver]

Kim,

 

Shep is far from being the only dog out there that is aggressive at the vet.

 

There are vets out there who will work with these dogs sympathetically rather than antagonistically. Find one.

 

AK Dog Doc's method is the one that works best with Solo. Solo is very stressed by vet visits and can be an unsympathetic patient. You need to find a vet who is going to be able to remain objective and still give good care even though Shep is never going to be his/her "favorite patient." I know it can be hard.

 

I often send thank you notes after a vet visit, along with photos of Solo in everyday life demonstrating that he can be perfectly normal when he is not in a situation that he thinks he might die in. This seems to help.

 

When Solo needed his rabies vaccination renewed, I took him to one of those low-cost vaccination clinics at the local pet supply store and explained to the vet beforehand what Solo was like. He allowed me to bring Solo into the parking lot without waiting in line inside the store, and snuck up behind him and gave the injection real quick while I held Solo's head and gave him treats. The vet was gone by the time Solo turned around and ten minutes later Solo had forgotten about it.

 

This is no substitute for a real vet exam, and Solo gets those on schedule (with the help of some Dormitor) but it's an example of the kind of "creative" approach I take sometimes to minimize Solo's stress level while making sure that he gets the care he needs.

 

I feel for you. Don't get too discouraged.