Advice from other BC owners.

[dorfeater]

Hello all, first post here. I was looking for some tips with the breed. Recently myself and my girlfriend adopted a 1 1/2 year old border collie named Lilith. She is the sweetest dog in the world, I really couldn't have asked for a better dog. There is just one problem. She has huge seperation issues. So much so that she tore up the carpet by the door one day while we were gone for only 30 mins.

 

We've tried the "anxiety training", leaving the room for an ascending amount of time and every time you come back praise her and give treats. We've been doing that for about 2 weeks now, and nothing has changed.

 

We do have a crate for her, but I'm not a fan of using crates so we only use it when we're going to be leaving the house. When we put her in the crate she whines, and barks as we leave, and I setup my camera on her while we were gone one day, and she tries to dig her way out of the crate, bites it and pulls on it, almost to the point where I think she might hurt herself.

 

I know BC's are working dogs and they always need a job, so we always have plenty of toys, and we take her out to the dog parks and for long walks when the weather permits. We've had no other problems with her, no accidents in the house, no problems with our two cats, and we leave her to roam around the house while we sleep, without any problems as long as we leave our bedroom door open.

 

Any tips? :confused: Thanks much in advance.

[Genie]

My last BC had separation anxiety. I was able to manage it for years with behavior mod and sticking to a strict schedule, but he evenutally worsened. I discussed anti-anxiety meds with my vet and we decided on Amitriptylline. I was surprised to find that it didn't make him dopey at all. It helped ease his anxiety quite a bit. I only wish I had started it years ago when I first started working with him to lessen his anxiety. I might have been able to do much more with the behavior modification if I had combined it with meds.

[Tassie]

Hi dorfeater - welcome to the Boards.

 

Just a couple of thoughts, but I don't have personal experience with separation anxiety, so take them for what they're worth.

 

First - for a recently adopted 1.5 year old dog, 2 weeks is not terribly long, so I wouldn't give up on what you're doing.

 

Second - while she may be trying to dig out of the crate, crates eventually become a favourite place of dogs, so again, don't give up on the crate.

 

Third - is she so anxious that she won't take food or pay attention to say a raw meaty bone (large)? If she'll take them, then you can put those in the crate.

 

Fourth - it might be worth trying a plug in dog appeasing pheromone (DAP) DAP info . It seems to be readily available in the US. It works for some dogs - some of the vets here use it to calm clients.

 

Fifth - you may want to consider getting some specialist help from a veterinary behaviourist - stress the veterinary part of that - not just someone who calls themselves that. Solo River may pop in with a link which would show where you could find them in your area.

[bailey44]

Welcome to the boards! I love the name Lilith. It can be tough for a dog to be tossed in a crate and left all alone if the dog isn't used to it. I would move the crate to a room where you are--I have mine in the kitchen/den area. Throughout the day, pop Lilith in there with a chewy or toy while you move around in the room. Ignore her and act like it's the most normal thing in the world. Gradually extend the time, then if she is doing o.k., try going out the door so that she hears you leave, but just stay away for a few minutes so that she realizes that you are coming back. The crate is such a valuable tool, and most dogs truly like them. My pup goes in her crate on her own if she feels like it's too noisy in the house and she wants peace, or she'll just go in and nap. It's her space and she feels safe and happy there. Why aren't you a "fan" of the crate? I'm sure more folks will come along with advice, but I'm not sure your dog has a serious anxiety problem-I think she just needs to become more comfortable with the crate. Charlene

[dorfeater]

Thanks for the replies. The reason why I'm not such a huge fan of the crate, no matter how many times people tell me how good they are, I just feel bad when my pets are bound by something, and I would really like to get her to the point where she can wander around the house while we're out and not have to worry about destructive behavior.

 

I work and my girlfriend stays at home, so she rarely ever has to go in her crate. I guess I'll just keep at it and hope that she eventually gets used to it.

[Alicia]

I'm not a fan of crates either. I know alot of dogs end up enjoying them but since I've never had to use them I guess I dont see the point when I can leave them in the house free or int eh backyard. I think its hard tog et over the small space and confinment. I only crated Dally until she was potty trained and since then havent used one.

 

Stupid question but just to check, do you have a yard to put her in during the day? I assume not because she's inside.

Now, I've never had problems with Seperation Anxiety but somethings I might try if I did, crating with a stuffed Kong or two maybe? or How bout leaving her at Doggie Daycare?

[MaggieDog]

Charlene has some good suggestions re: crating. I know you don't like using it, but seriously you're making crate time horrible for Lillith by not using it at any other time other than when you're leaving. I'm sure by now she's associated crating w/ you leaving which equals major panic for her. The anticipation will *not* help her anxiety one iota - I speak from experience.

 

My Maggie has determined that when I take the blankets out of her crate it means she's going to be left alone while in her crate and she starts stressing, so we've had to sacrifice a few towels to reduce that trigger.

 

For Maggie I learned her apparent separation anxiety while crated (i.e. bending wires, chewing and scratching the door, etc.) was actually a confinement anxiety issue; once she was allowed free run of the house she was absolutely fine. Though this doesn't sound like your new girl's problem, it is somethign to keep in mind.

 

As to the protocol you've tried w/ incremental periods of alone time: how quickly are you increasing the time alone and where did you start at? Often people try to move waaay too fast and in the process the dog doesn't actually learn not to stress, they just stress at a different level.

 

Also, I would try the progressive leaving protocol w/o praising or treats when you reappear - you're just making your homecoming that much more obvious and to be anticipated; instead, try to enter and ignore Lillith for a few mins. I found that helped Maggie some because she wasn't soooo hyped about me being home.

 

What do you do when Lillith barks or gets anxious in the crate? have you tried leaving chewies for her that she only gets when you leave?

[Tassie]

Just on the crate thing - a couple of points to consider.

 

Dogs will often voluntarily put themselves in a crate/tent or other crate-like situation, even when they have the whole house to wander round in, so I guess from a dog's point of view, they're not bad. (That's assuming that they've been introduced to crates in an appropriate way.

 

There will be times in most dogs' lives when they might need to be crated/caged - e.g. at the vets, travelling, staying away from home, recuperating from injury/surgery etc. - so if they have been accustomed to seeing the crate as a nice place to be, that removes one stress from them.

 

I'm certainly not a fan of leaving a dog for very long periods in a crate - though having said that, mine at agility/obedience trials will cheerfully spend a good portion of the day asleep in their crates - usually by choice.

 

All of that said, I think what we're saying is that the crate might be a useful interim step for you - and after that, will just be a back-up.

[Beth G]

Originally posted by Alicia:

I dont see the point when I can leave them in the house free or in the backyard. I think its hard to get over the small space and confinment. I only crated Dally until she was potty trained and since then havent used one.

 

Stupid question but just to check, do you have a yard to put her in during the day? I assume not because she's inside.

You are very lucky. If people out here leave their dogs in a backyard they are often as good as gone... unless they are very big, intimidating or vicious...lol then nobody messes with them.

 

But anyhoo... back to the point. Mine also hollared at first, when crated. but I'd give them a nice treat to chew on and the minute they hushed, and started chewing I'd praise them to heaven and back.

 

After they grew comfortable with that, I'd start the next step, which was leaving the room for a little at a time.

 

At night I kept the crate by my bed and often during the day, I'd sit by the crate or do something nearby, even read to them(lol), so that it wouldn't make them feel like everytime they went into the crate I went away. That can make a VERY bad association with the crate.

 

You want good ones...so whatever it takes even if you have to read to yours too...lol.

 

Good luck!

[Coloradogirl]

Originally posted by Alicia:

You are very lucky. If people out here leave their dogs in a backyard they are often as good as gone... unless they are very big, intimidating or vicious...lol then nobody messes with them.[/QB]

 

 

Who/What takes the dogs?? That is so scary.

[dorfeater]

Thanks again all. No, unfortunatly we don't live in a house, we live in a apartment (I know, I'm evil) so backyard is kinda outta the question.

 

About the voluntary crate dealy. We do notice that sometimes she will go and burrow into our comforter on our bed, even when we're not in the room. I really don't know what it is, it's cute.

 

We put toys into her crate for her, she has plenty of bedding, shes never had an accident in her crate.

 

Usually she never barks, the only time she's EVER barked (kinda odd) is right when we leave, and she just gets ignored.

 

Doggie Daycare is unfortunatly totally outta the question, we simply don't have the income for that.

[Zoe]

Hi there,

Is she anxious when you leave the room or only when you leave the house ?

Dylan had SA and I'd crated him when we left, so when I tried to train him to be ok about our leaving, I got rid of the crate. Personally, I think that may be a good option for you too.But you need to do the training at a pace that is comfortable for your dog. You will have to video everything and watch it every time. And she must never be left alone for any longer period of time other than what she is comfortable with during this training, or you will have undone all your good work. I don't know what you have done exactly, or what program you are following.I can tell you more about what I did with Dylan if you're interested. I'm no expert though ! I just know what you're going through.

If she really has SA, then I doubt leaving food or chewies without doing the proper training will help. Dylan wouldn't eat when he was anxious. He wouldn't even sleep -

Best wishes, Zoe and Dylan

[bc4pack]

If dogs are introduced to crates correctly dogs will see them as safe places and places of comfort ...many may have full run of house and yard wnd choose to spend time in their crate...I agree that an occasional dog is truly claustrophobic and have anxiety/stress issues that can cause a dog to hurt itself,but the vast majority if introduced to a crate in the right way will see/use it as their safe spot when they start feeling stressed out... ie t-storms for a storm phobic dog.

 

www.clickersolutions.com/articles

 

look under 'problem behavior' and you will find an article specifically dealing w/ separation anxiety...might help you out...browse thru some of the articles,there's a lot of good stuff!

Under 'puppy training' you'll find an article on crate training...a lot of good information.

[kelpiegirl]

I have a dog who is fine with eating in a crate, and being in a crate- except when I leave in the afternoon, and sometimes the morning. She has actually damaged a tooth from her gnawing at the door. I have been bringing her with me to work, and she sits in the car with another dog, all day, no problems. She is also okay in the crate when we are at a trial, or other outing. The other day was miraculous, as I left her with a nylabone, and hoped for the best (it was too cold to leave her in the car). I came home to nothing amiss! It was wonderful. The next time I left I gave her a marrow bone- again, no problems. This also happens to coincide with me working her on sheep- so.... who knows, maybe that has helped?

Julie

[melly]

Love the post about reading to your BC. I always read to the kids and grands; why not to Geaugeau?

[Beth G]

Originally posted by dorfeater:

Thanks again all. No, unfortunatly we don't live in a house, we live in a apartment (I know, I'm evil) so backyard is kinda outta the question.

No it's not evil. If you give them enough time and excercise they're happy and it can be done.

 

Originally posted by Coloradogirl:

Who/What takes the dogs?? That is so scary.

Some just want them for themselves(alot of crime out here)alot of people take them for pitbull fight-training(I can't begin to tell you how many offered to buy ours when they were pups for that).

 

Although when they are bigger they still will use them for that though too.

 

Originally posted by melly:

Love the post about reading to your BC. I always read to the kids and grands; why not to Geaugeau?

Yeah they just love it when you talk to them (and it's a good way to get them to bond to you). I love how they tilt their heads to the side when it's words they recognize! It's so adorable!!

[painted_ponies]

Originally posted by dorfeater:

The reason why I'm not such a huge fan of the crate, no matter how many times people tell me how good they are, I just feel bad when my pets are bound by something

Humans tend to look at crates as confining, but dogs, who evolved to live in burrows and caves, find them snuggly and comforting. :cool: I promise.

 

If it makes you feel better, you can also remind yourself how you're protecting her from hurting herself in case she chews up and swallows something that will cause a bowel obstruction.

[smileyzookie]

Rivendell also has SA. We've tried the whole crating her and giving treats yada yada, and I guess for most dogs on here thats a superb solution. Unfortunately, Riven digs on her chest and rips hair out if left in her crate. She always does better lately out of it. So I'll second Zoe's idea.

[AK dog doc]

Hey there - just as a BTW, the more obvious the diff between you being there and you NOT being there, the worse the anxiety is likely to get. Giving lots of treats and praise when you return is likely to underline that diff and could actually worsen your problem, IMO. I'd see if you can find a veterinary behaviorst in your area that can help you with this - not a trainer, since some of them have very little correct info about these issues, but an actual vet who is a board-certified behaviorist. There are actual protocols for training which you can follow step-wise.

 

One other thing... if a dog is extremely anxious you MAY have to resort to medication TEMPORARILY during retraining (some dogs have enough going on that they need longer term meds, but that'd be for your vet to assess.) The thing about retraining on anxiety issues is that it's a lot harder to train a dog that's constantly being stimulated by what makes it anxious. From Lilith's point of view, you guys leaving is a Very Bad Thing. Since you have to leave probably several days a week to go to work, if she's very anxious in your absence she's going to be so stressed that it will be difficult for her to learn. In that case, your options are to have her somewhere she is NOT anxious during the retraining phase (as in, some dogs are happy in the car, some dogs are happy at doggie daycare or a friend's house), or to consider meds. A milder sort of case might be manageable without that.

 

At any rate, first step IMO is the veterinary behaviorist. I think that will save you a lot of time and trouble and expense in the long run.

[Alicia]

Originally posted by Beth G:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alicia:

I dont see the point when I can leave them in the house free or in the backyard. I think its hard to get over the small space and confinment. I only crated Dally until she was potty trained and since then havent used one.

 

Stupid question but just to check, do you have a yard to put her in during the day? I assume not because she's inside.

You are very lucky. If people out here leave their dogs in a backyard they are often as good as gone... unless they are very big, intimidating or vicious...lol then nobody messes with them.

Huh, that's strange, never had that problem in Washington before I'm from Olympia/Tumwater (born and raised ) and also lived in Ellensburg for 2 years. That's really sad that Spokane is like that. I'll have to warn my brother, he's goin to Eastern, if he gets a dog. Sorry to hear that.