Shadows Mom Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Shadow tends to have some part of someone in her mouth 24/7 these days. It doesn't bother me so much, but it sure bothers my 2 year old nephew and niece! She's always been mouthy like this, but since she's started teething its gotten a little more painful. She'll actually jump at people and snap at their faces! I've been telling her NO! everytime but she's just not going to listen I don't want to have to muzzle her around the kids... anyone have any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 I don't think that just saying "NO" will solve the problem. I think you need to be more proactive and reactive with her. First, try to avoid the situation that triggers the behavior. That may include reminding the kids that loud noises and abrupt movements may trigger unpleasant reactions from any dog. When my dogs wer that age, I would respond to mouthing/nipping with a sharp "NO!" or "OUCH!", and get hold of the pup by the scruff of the neck (if the "no" or "ouch" didn't have the desired result) and let him know that that behavior was unacceptable. A good "talking to" in a deep, growly voice, and not letting the pup go until her submitted and relaxed was needed with mine. Every single time, every single person. Be consistent or you won't get the problem solved. If you can't be supervising when the kids are there, crate the pup with some good toys/chewies, preferably out of sight of the kids so she isn't watching and fussing to get to them to roughhouse like she would with another pup (until it said "enough is enough, get your teeth off me or I'll bite you back like this!"). Lots of youngsters do grow out of this stage but, if it becomes a habit (and it sounds like it has), it's a potential for a bitten child or person, and you don't want that. Muzzling will prevent a bite but it won't solve the problem, which is a training issue. There have been other threads dealing with this. You might like to use the search function at the top of the page. Best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Everything Sue said!!! Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadows Mom Posted August 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Search function is blocked by my system.. same on all boards. Its a bit annoying really. Scruffing is a bit too physical for me, as are shaking the face or slapping her. Trying to find a positive reinforcement training technique if possible. Think its probably Penny teaching her to be mouthy like this (Penny is 1/2 wolf, so mouthing is a social thing for her). We've started saying good girl when she gives us puppy kisses and bad girl when she mouths us.. but we don't chase her and try to jump on her tail like my nephew Usually when she gets a bad girl she'll come sit on my feet and lick my legs (her favorite thing to do, oddly) I've also had her teathered to my legs for a few days to help with her housebreaking, so she's easier to keep an eye on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sluj Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Not sure about where you live, but here if a dog is reported for biting someone, it's seized and quarantined for ten days, and depending on observations during that time, may not be returned. So mouthing and nipping are definitely to be taken seriously. It's one of two behaviours so far I'll use adversives for. I think Sue gave the best advice. For air snapping, I have been able to reduce it in my dog by putting it on cue, and letting her know that she is only rewarded if she is sitting and does not reach out when given the command. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flrpwr52 Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 How about keeping a leash on Shadow when the kids are around so you can step on it or grab it before she jumps to nip? Make her sit then reward her. Let her know when people are around she can get treats for sitting. Keep her on a leash and have plenty of good treats in your hand and continue to treat as long as she sits and doesn't try to jump and nip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha J Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Search function is blocked by my system.. same on all boards. Its a bit annoying really. Scruffing is a bit too physical for me, as are shaking the face or slapping her. Trying to find a positive reinforcement training technique if possible. Think its probably Penny teaching her to be mouthy like this (Penny is 1/2 wolf, so mouthing is a social thing for her). We've started saying good girl when she gives us puppy kisses and bad girl when she mouths us.. but we don't chase her and try to jump on her tail like my nephew Usually when she gets a bad girl she'll come sit on my feet and lick my legs (her favorite thing to do, oddly) I've also had her teathered to my legs for a few days to help with her housebreaking, so she's easier to keep an eye on. I am no expert but i do remember Holly only to well at around that age. She was a real biter and that is mainly how she got her nickname *monster*. I really had a lot of jumpers etc with holes in them through those really quite sharp teeth. Holly didn't actually go for your face though but she did like to bite. With her we did the *Ouch* and the *No* followed by giving her some thing she could bite like her Nylabone puppy teething keys. That worked when she was small then when she was about Shadows age and loosing her teeth we would do much the same as you really and really praise the kisses which we named *kiss* and a *No* for the biting but we would then stand up and walk away from her. Or we would pick her up saying a stern *No* and take her into the hallway behind the child gate we had up. Then walk away and leave her for about 2 - 3mins fetch her back in then do the same precedure again when she got too rough. Hope that you understood all that, it is easier thinking it or saying it than writing it down. Anyway i was very worried actually as i thought she would never get out of it but she did, mind you then comes adolescence, different problems. lol. I know i have only had Holly but just to let you know in my case with her she was a horrid puppy but it did pass eventually. Now we still say *give us a kiss* or *kiss* and she always gives you one - she is very affectionate now. In fact whatever she is doing even real growly tug play the minute you even wisper *kiss* she immediately stops and gives you one. So IMO keep working on the *kiss* like you are as it is a good way to let her know a face is not for biting. Mind you that's if you don't mind a slabber tongue on your cheek, the same would apply to kiss on the hand too though.lol ETA - oh i agree with keeping her away from the kids or keeping her on a leash whilst they are around. Just while she learns what she is allowed to do or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadows Mom Posted August 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 She did alright today, only mouthed me once and had a guilty look on her face when she did it. When she snaps at us she goes on time out, I put her on the other side of the room and tell her to lay down and stay there... oh does she look sad! Now if I could just teach my nephew to quit chasing her scares the life out of her, and his mom knows if he smacks her in the face and she nips him, its not her fault. I just don't want her nipping when un-provoked. Guess I need to go buy more of her favorite treats tomorrow, and a dreaded choke chain for leash training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OurBoys Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Awwww, do you have to buy a choke chain???? What does your nephew's mom do when he starts for Shadow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha J Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Awwww, do you have to buy a choke chain???? What does your nephew's mom do when he starts for Shadow? Yeah i agree, could you perhaps use a halti harness or headcollar instead. JMO but i love mine (i use the harness with training lead). I still trained her to walk nice by stopping and turning the other way etc whilst she walked. Now after a while of using it she walks very well most of the time. I still use it though and just attach the lead to the back of it as on occasion she will see someone/some doggie she knows well and get a little excitable. She is a very strong girl and i am not that big (muscle wise anyway) so i find i have more control with the harness as i can also attach the lead under her collar too and it does not pull on her neck. I would be a bit annoyed with your nephews mum if she let him chase my dog. kids need training too. I think it would be better for Shadow to keep them apart. Any bad habits get picked up quicker than good ones and you know how quick these BC's learn. I would be concerned that Shadow will think all kids act like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 She did alright today, only mouthed me once and had a guilty look on her face when she did it. When she snaps at us she goes on time out, I put her on the other side of the room and tell her to lay down and stay there... oh does she look sad! Now if I could just teach my nephew to quit chasing her scares the life out of her, and his mom knows if he smacks her in the face and she nips him, its not her fault. I just don't want her nipping when un-provoked. Guess I need to go buy more of her favorite treats tomorrow, and a dreaded choke chain for leash training. I guess I am confused here - you say that scruffing is too severe for you but you'll put a choke chain on her to leash train her? Instead of blaming her why not just put her up when the uncontrolled nephew comes in? It's not fair to her to be chased and smacked and scared, you need to look out for her not leave her to her own to figure out how to deal with him. You've been given great advise here about the mouthing - setting her up to fail with an uncontrolled child is unfair. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flrpwr52 Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 This is a bit out there but why can't you explain to your nephew's mom that you don't want the nephew to hit or chase Shadow? You can explain you are trying to teach Shadow some good manners and if the nephew doesn't stop harrassing her she won't grow up into a well mannered dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Now if I could just teach my nephew to quit chasing her scares the life out of her, and his mom knows if he smacks her in the face and she nips him, its not her fault. I just don't want her nipping when un-provoked. Guess I need to go buy more of her favorite treats tomorrow, and a dreaded choke chain for leash training. It is your responsibility to keep your dog safe and secure from inappropriate interactions with children or adtults. For me, your dog should be crated in another room, etc where the kids could not be allowed to get at her. Then you set up a controlled interaction with the kids, particularly your nephew. He could sit on your knee or sit on the couch and just either drop treats for your dog, or feed via an open hand like you do a horse. If she is good at any kind of tricks help him to get her to do those. Once the session is done, put the dog away and out of reach of the kids. You aren't doing your dog any favours or the kids any favours by allowing this negative and inappropriate interaction between them. With respect to yourselves, it's not that you have to teach the dog that they can never put their teeth on you. That doesn't teach them bite inhibition. You have to teach them that if they put their mouth on you they have to be very very gentle, and only when invited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Please don't take all the advice and cautions about Shadow and your nephew the wrong way. There's a lot here that's potentially very dangerous: a little boy who is learning behaviors around dogs that have a good chance of getting him bitten badly - I'm not saying Shadow would do that, but a lot of other dogs might. At 2, most kids don't comprehend stuff like scolding, he needs to be kept separated from the dog unless directly supervised. Shadow is learning that little kids are unpredictable and dangerous and scary, and that she gets in trouble when there's a kid running around. She could start to think all kids are dangerous. A bit to a child, provoked or not, often lead to bad outcomes for the dog. If she's teething, her gums might be hurting her. Wet a wash cloth, freeze it, give it to her to chew. When she bites or nips, give her something she can chew or bite on. For some dogs, biting can be an indication that they're overtired and just can't turn themselves off - crate with chewie for a nap. My niece's dog would bite and nip when he was a puppy, and it always meant he needed to go potty. Good luck, I know there's a lot to deal with here. Let us know how you get on with her. Ruth n the BC3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha J Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 If she's teething, her gums might be hurting her. Wet a wash cloth, freeze it, give it to her to chew. When she bites or nips, give her something she can chew or bite on Yeah i remember for Holly we used to give her a raw peeled whole carrot to chew on from the fridge. Nice and cold for those sore gums. She also had the Nylabone teething keys. We also let her gnaw on the odd sugar free ice pop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadows Mom Posted August 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Yeah, Shadow is going to be in my room when the nephew is here. My sister won't control him one bit, and she screams at me if I so much as say no to him -.- Soooo the pup gets to lounge in the bed, where he isn't allowed. The Good girl for kisses and Bad girl for bites seems to be working well. When she mouths me I say Bad Girl and stop petting her for a couple minutes. She didn't even nip at the vet when she got her shots today, I was very proud! Thanks for all the suggestions everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Yeah, Shadow is going to be in my room when the nephew is here. My sister won't control him one bit, and she screams at me if I so much as say no to him -.- Soooo the pup gets to lounge in the bed, where he isn't allowed. Good for you! Give Shadow something extra special to chew on while she has to be put away. You will find it a lot less nerve wracking without having to worry about her. Now, if you could just get your sister under control Been there, done that with one of my sisters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OurBoys Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Yeah, Shadow is going to be in my room when the nephew is here. My sister won't control him one bit, and she screams at me if I so much as say no to him -.- Soooo the pup gets to lounge in the bed, where he isn't allowed. I feel for you soooo much! Your sister is being way too biased. I know she loves her son but she's doing him more harm than good. If she doesn't teach him how to respect dogs, he's going to end up getting bit and the poor dog is going to be blamed. We had a problem teaching my nephew how to pet dogs. He would always hit them instead. All of us knew if we didn't teach him to properly pet a dog, he was going to hit the wrong dog one day and end up seriously hurt. That boy was (and still can be) very stubborn. As soon as he was mobile, he would head for my sheltie every chance he got. She would always try to walk away but when we were in the house, at times he would corner her. No matter what we did, he would not listen! We would firmly tell him No!, we would pop his butt, we would pop his hand after he hit her. Nothing got through to him! One day my nephew spotted my sheltie and made a beeline towards her. She saw him coming and started walking away from him but then stopped and turned her head to look at him. When he raised his hand and brought it down, she swung around and he ended up with his wrist in her mouth. When he tried to pull it out, she wouldn't let him. When he started crying, she let go. All this happened in a few fast seconds. When we got to him, my nephew didn't even have a red mark on him. My sheltie knew we were trying to teach him how to treat dogs and after 2 years we were getting no where so she took matters into her own hands (or mouth in this case). We were very lucky we had a loving, understanding dog. Niki, in her wisdom, was the only one that was able to teach my nephew not to hit. It's been over 20 years since that day but to this day my nephew loves and respects dogs. Your nephew might not be that lucky. RIP old girl. You'll always be my heart dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted August 23, 2007 Report Share Posted August 23, 2007 Sounds to me like the nephew needs to be put in the crate and probably his mother, also. With the way she is not making an effort to discipline and train her child, she's creating her own little monster. I've had four kids, with dogs and other animals, and my daughters-in-law have had a total of six between them (well, two are till tiny), and all have learned at a toddler age to behave reasonably around animals. Your choice to protect your dog by confining her to another room with a good treat is a wise decision. Also, look for opportunities with well-behaved children to teach her that children are good, can give nice treats, and can give enjoyable pets. As pointed out, a pup that grows up learning to fear children is not going to be comfortable and calm, and therefore safe, around them. A scruffing is not inhumane. It's taking the dog/pup by the scruff of the neck (lots of loose skin and hair) and reprimanding him/her verbally (low, stern, growly voice) while restraining him/her until the dog/pup relaxes and quits resisting or struggling. Does it involve a shake? It can involve a reasonable, rather restrained shake of the scruff for emphasis, not a shake-the-pup-silly shake. A choke chain collar is not a good choice. As others have pointed out, there are several alternatives that offer good control and that are more humane. Best wishes! It's a shame but it will be much easier to train your dog than to retrain your relatives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted August 23, 2007 Report Share Posted August 23, 2007 Yeah, Shadow is going to be in my room when the nephew is here. My sister won't control him one bit, and she screams at me if I so much as say no to him -.- Grrr! That bothers me both as the owner of a reactive dog and as a schoolteacher! One of the constant and growing problems we run into is kids whose parents won't control them, and who scream at the world when the world tries to teach their kids how to behave. Sounds like you need to "anonymously" send your sister a copy of that "South Park" episode where they call in Cesar Millan to deal with the out of control kid. It is HILARIOUS! http://loadup.ru/video/view/?id=v161506a3e Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadows Mom Posted August 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Haven't been mouthed in a couple days.. YAY SHADOW! She's been exposed to my brothers children as well, they're both great with her and she just loved them! Once I can trust her 100% with the mouthing issue I'll be taking her to the daycare down the street to visit the kids, and probably to the seniors complex to let them pet her, shes got the perfect personality to be a therapy dog! A calm BC, go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadows Mom Posted August 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2007 Does it count as mouthing / biting when she chews on my toenails at night? What a way to wake up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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