Munchausens disease and pet abuse

[AK dog doc]

Good point about it being divisive and abusing the other members of the fora on which it occurs. It seeds mistrust and stresses both those who genuinely feel sympathy for the perpetrator AND those who feel aggravated or abused by them. Moreover, it can disrupt a community if people start taking sides too much (as well as the far less serious harm of some 'unpleasantness' of behavior, as in if there is name-calling, accusation, other personal attack, etc.)

 

As for what we, as dog people in dog-y communities can do - that's really a good question, and I'll have to think about that... it's a conundrum, that's for sure. My position is somewhat different in that I am (except over the 'net) privy to the actual and alleged medical information in the face of the pet's physical presentation. If someone comes in and says their dog is severely painful, but I can't elicit even minimal pain, something's not fitting (although some things, like vomiting, are harder to pick out, since those very often do not happen in the exam room.) Also, if I see animal (or human) abuse, I'm required by law to report it since I am a medical professional. But what to do as a general member of a community, or on an internet forum? That's harder to figure. I take it from the articles that confronting the person suspected of the MbP is the way to go (although the HOW to confront - apart from "empathetically", as suggested - is a bit more difficult to figure.) I suppose if it's someone who truly does not get it that that is how they are presenting themselves/being percieved, it would be a simple fix; they'd just go "Ooops! That wasn't what I was trying to convey, I'd better be more conscious of the impression I'm giving." It reminds me of a time when I was feeling draggy and blue (as a kid) and, truth to tell, mainly just bored. My stepmother mirrored my glum expression back at me and I thought: Wow. I'm not THAT depressed! so I snapped out of it and found myself something to do. I was just feeling a bit sorry for myself that I was bored and I needed to go do something about it and stop making it someone else's problem. (The tribulations of pre-teendom! I remember them fondly - or not.)

 

Hmm. Well, a very thought-provoking (and kind of fascinating) subject. I'm glad it came up - it's given me a lot to think about, and settled some nagging suspicions about past clients. Thanks, Kaos. Those kittens have haunted me for a long time. It's good to have a chance to revisit that from the persepctive of years and see that I did the right thing by involving the authorities - and I did even suggest to them that they alert the breeder and advise them it might be risky to sell any more kittens to the perpetrator (that, I know for sure they did do, as they reported back on it.)

[MrSnappy]

Julie, very well stated. IMO, extremely astute.

 

I think typically anyone with some foresight can pin down these folks on the internet, to a degree. I would venture to say that in most instances, the people who recognize these folks may be quiet on the subject, but are usually correct.

 

Thanks for an interesting and enlightening topic!

 

RDM

[BustopherJones]

Touche, Julie. If you expect an argument from me, you will be disappointed; you have always been one of the "good guys" on this board, and I have too much respect for you to quibble.

 

As for my defense of others, I am far more prone to respond if I perceive that the *other* person is acting in a malicious or condescending manner. There is always room for differing opinions (where would the world be without diversity?) and/or cordial debates on issues. But when one person attacks another on a personal basis, and/or insults another without any regard for that individual's dignity and integrity, then I am likely to respond (probably strongly). And just so I don't appear to be a hypcorite: yes, I have done that myself, something I am not proud of. But I try to learn from my mistakes. Hence, you will find that I try not to attack the individual in my defense of another, but rather the act or statement at issue.

[juliepoudrier]

Hey Bustopher, I never go looking for an argument--I'm not a good arguer (is that a word?) because I usually have to really think about what I want to say, which kind of slows the pace of the argument tremendously. (And what fun is that?) That's why I said I usually just quit posting, though that's probably the wimpy way out.... Anyway, whenever I get really annoyed over something it's easy to step away and head outside to mess with the dogs or sheep, or look at the new chicks (or check for more) or run over to the farm and check out the new (sort of oops!) lamb. Dealing with livestock is like a balm to me, allowing me to put aside any anger I might have--it's just good for the soul!

 

Oh, and thanks for not being a hypocrite. I can't stand one!

 

RDM,

I'd guess you're right about most folks remaining quiet about their suspicions. But I was just reminded a couple of weeks ago by someone I really respect (and in relation to a different topic) that by remaining silent we become complicit. Probably not a real big deal when the issue is posts to a forum such as this one, but certainly important when dealing with situations like the one AK Dog Doc described with the kittens.

 

J.

[Jack & Co.]

Julie, I don't think it's wimpy to just stop posting. You said it best here:

 

If I personally think that someone is posting simply to gain sympathy, I will simply quit responding. That is, I may try to help at first, but once I realize that things seem a bit "fishy" I just stop. Unfortunately, in such situations you can't stop everyone else from responding without outing the person and declaring your suspicions, which opens you up to attacks from more sympathetic/less suspicious members of the forum or list

If they don't have anyone to fan their flames, hopefully they will go out (at least for a little while) or until they create their next crisis.

[Willikers]

Julie and Jack & Co. That is my policy. I just withdraw my energy and attention from whomever is trying to manipulate attention or pick a fight. It is so pointless. I have dogs that need petting. At the end of their too-brief life spans, I don't want to be explaining to them why I spent hours online taking bait and arguing with virtual people. The cat's in the cradle, and all that jazz...

[Woodenlion]

by remaining silent we become complicit

Thanks for bringing this up. This is a real friendship breaker for me. And Julie, you do not come across as capable of complicity regarding an anything of meaning.

 

Toni

[Jo&Tex]

I come on here constantly and blather on about my amazing BLIND dog. I am on the verge of adopting a DEAF dog. Why do I have dogs with disabilities?? Does it make me some kind of better than average dog owner?

I hope people don't think that of me, that I'm attention seeking by the dogs I choose to adopt.

Tex fell into my life and amazes me every day with his courage and zest for life. I am going to school to become a special education teaching assistant, my work involves people with disabilities. I am the Mother of a deceased child with Cerebral Palsy. My someday BA will be in the field of disability studies.

Tex is proof that he is a dog first and a disability second. There are so many dogs needing a home and disadvantaged dogs suffer from prejudices similiar to what my students face. If someone somewhere read my posts and decided to take a second look at a challenged dog in a shelter, then I'd be honoured to be thought of as a bit of a FruitLoop.

[kajarrel]

Jo,

If you go into the field you're studying, YOU may have to deal with these issues. I was working in an acute pediatric rehab unit when I saw Munchausen by proxy. It's out there . . . I gather by your message that you didn't read the articles or else you'd see that simply owning a disabled dog doesn't constitute ANY type of Munchasen's . . . Read them - as a student, you'll be interested.

 

Kim

[IronHorse]

Kaos;

I just caught up on this paticular thread and wanted to just take a moment to say Thank You for bringing a very interesting and thought provoking topic to the boards.

[AK dog doc]

I think there's a GIANT diff between someone who chooses to take on the added responsibility of a dog with challenges (or one who chooses to shoulder that responsibilty when their previously-healthy dog develops problems) and someone who either CAUSES the problems to get attention, or who makes spurious claims about the animal to get attention. I think the key here it that the GOAL is attention-seeking and drama. If you come on here and say, "My dog is so great, and this thing about how he copes with his blindness makes me realize he's that much smarter than the average bear" then, IMO, you're sharing a tale about your dog, which just happens to be about something related to his blindness. The same if you say, "Wow, my blind dog just got a big gash on his leg because he couldn't see the hazard and I feel so bad", same thing. If you're on here going "Oh woe is me, my blind dog is having SEIZURES, he's going to DIE!!!" (when he has had no seizure), then that would be, if I understand it right, Munchausen by Internet. If you were to play up his blindness as a potentially life-threatening thing in order to gain sympathy or attention or money, that might be Munchausen or attention-seeking (of a lesser degree). Same if you were to invent or obsess about some imagined disease which might be related, as I understand it.

 

There's nothing wrong with having the heart, the courage, the patience, the generosity of spirit and the dedication to deliberately take on an animal with a disability. I think most people admire and respect that and would not consider you a Fruitloop for it. I think the pathology comes in when there's some agenda for personal gain on the part of the owner, particularly if the gain is achieved at the expense of another (either the pet or the board members); in such a case the owner is using the dog or the dog's disability for personal benefit. That is, IMO, shameful behavior and deeply disrespectful of the dog (which then just becomes a tool to feed the owner's ego at best, or sickness at worst). That you can say that Tex is a dog first and a disability second takes you right out of the Munchausen zone, IMO; it means that the most important thing to you is TEX, not his blindness. If you were suffering from MbP or some other attention-seeking disorder, the most important thing to you would be the blindness; Tex himself would be irrelevant except as a vehicle for the blindness. That's the difference.

[Jack & Co.]

Wonderful explanation, AK Dog Doc. Excellent examples!

[Dixie_Girl]

Well said AK dog doc! Everyone here will at one time or another have something happen to their dog. And some have chronic probs. But I think when you NEVER hear pos. things that would be a clue. Regardless of the dogs sit. there is usually pos. things either before or after. Unless of course the person comes on the board with an ill dog, but if it is MDbyinternet, it would be obvious after awhile.

[kaos]

actually Dixie girl I think you do hear positive things too, its not just the sympathy its also the congratulations...

 

so for example, the dog would be on deaths door with a myriad of dire predicitions and diagnoses and then POOF it is all better, and every one breathes a huge sigh of relief and trips over themselves congratulating the MDbp on the back for being so caring and an excellent saviour, blah blah.

 

It is the attention and drama that seems to fuel it.

 

Julie

When it comes to the internet,I do what you do too, and just avoid speaking and responding to people whom I suspect of playing around for perverse emotional gain, but I do feel a complicity in not stating my concerns or suspicions... it becomes really hard to live my conscience while looking at both sides of the fence I am sitting on.

 

I guess what I was hoping for was an epiphany moment wherein some one could have a polite yet clear action plan for reacting to this sort of thing. More so than holding my tongue.

 

Clearly a code word like pfalzgraf would be too obvious and ridiculous, and chatting behind a persons back wouldn't really accomplish any thing other then commisseration between the witnesses and maybe enlightenment of new people and those being duped or roped in to the cycle.... so what is left?

 

Maybe complain to the moderator? perhaps if every one did, the moderator could see what a detriment that sort of thing is to the general attitude and commaraderie of the board or chat sight. If issued with a warning or proposed disciplinary time out, the poster in question would sense the disapproval and curtail it a bit.

But I'm not sure if that would happen, because after all there hasn't been any provable crime or true trolling right? No real offense is committed. Man what a frustrating thing. What would you all do or plan to do if and or when you encounter it?

 

In day to day life, I have unfortunately argued and tried to atleast reason... no big surprise that it hasn't worked and has fallen on deaf ears and made me look like an absolute uncaring brute. Although, truth be told, I don't regret that as much as I do silence.

 

Interesting discussion every one, lets see if we can generate some more ideas or action plans.

 

Sara

[Dixie_Girl]

Sara, yes I see the point of the "miracle" cure. I think I didn't explain clear. What I meant were just the day to day pos. things like, they learned a new trick, or they figured something out, that type of thing, something that has nothing to do with the health of the dog. Does that make sense? Or am I still off base?

[kaos]

still a bit off... the dog will have amazing recoveries of multiple illnesses, so that is health related and they are big things as well as small things...

 

I think a continual barrage of things is something to look at as well...

 

every minute gut wrenching and operatic high note of life is described so that others can join in their fury or glory, and if they aren't geting the hit they need (like a crack addict) suddenly they introduce something bizarrely new and unrelated to the issue or discussion.

 

Hmmmm how to say it more clearly... maybe the dog has just come through some amazing health recovery or training milestone and the Mbp poster feels interest wane-ing in their act.. suddenly their marriage will be Kaput or they will experience a health breakdown... something like that...

 

I'm not sure I have explained it clearly, I need my midday tea

 

What would you do Dixie girl? any ideas?

 

Sara

[Dixie_Girl]

If I suspected it? I don't really know. And I think that is the prob of something like this over the internet.

 

Last night I was watching true stories of the ER or something like that. Anyway, a young college girl kept coming in with excruciating headaches, and feeling run down. They did every test possible on the face of the earth, including MRI's. Nothing at all could be found. All the docs and nurses in the ER thought she was making it up and/or trying to get pain meds. Except the one doc. He believed her. Finally, she came in but just wanted to give him a little gift and tell him she was leaving for college. When she gave the gift the ER nurse sorta rolled her eyes. The doc decided to walk the girl to her car to say goodbye. She had a fully restored '57 chevy and the doc was so impressed she offered to let him drive it around the parking lot. Not long after they were driving, she started to complain of a headache coming on, then so did he. He had her roll the windows down, and he called the ER to have a blood work kit waiting and they immediately got a blood sample of her and the doc. The car had an exhaust leak, and that is what was doing it. By the time she would get to ER before, she got enough fresh air to get the carbon monoxide out of her blood. Case solved.

 

So, weird things can happen. It's just too hard to know. But the doc went with his gut feeling so I guess that is what I would have to do.

 

Maybe if I really suspected it, try to come up with things to trip the person up and then just call them on it.

[Kyrasmom]

It's when the dog (or cat, or other being) is a tool to garner all the attention, happy or not, to ones self. It's a need to always be at the center of other people's attention and/or sympathy but it goes further then just being excited about a new trick. It's generally dramatic and makes other concerned people rally around them, feel sorry for them, feel happy for them.

 

As for silence not being golden, it's a hard call with internet things because you don't really know. Someone may be going through the worst possible time in their life and need an ear, or maybe not. Without proof, it's hard to know, though I've learned to depend on my little inner voice.

 

I would not personally call someone out that I didn't know but I would withdraw and simply not fuel the behavior...even though countless others will, and even if one forum becomes wise, the person will shift to another.

 

And quite honestly, even in person, it's hard to confront because so little can be done unless there is absolute certainty. When confronted with MBP in person in my situation, I had no proof beyond what I felt and even then, as the harm came to unwanted puppies, nobody was willing to stand up, I doubt many even suspected. I did...and it cost me. So, what I've done since is ensure the safety of my dogs and kept quiet.

 

Getting back to the internet, it's important to realize that while virtual relationships can seem very real, become very important, they are what they are. And this coming from someone who has made long lasting friends through the internet, but the contact was followed up with phone calls, visits, it ceased being anonymous.

 

Maria

[Jo&Tex]

As part of my studies, I cover alot of abnormal psychology and it's relation to child abuse. I have a test upcoming that covers Munchausen and I have a good understanding of what it entails.

I've been getting alot of "rolling of eyeballs" and weird looks from people who I thought would understand my excitement about the new dog. It's just odd timing that this subject came up just as I am experiencing discomfort with peoples reactions to my decision to get a baby brother for Tex.

[Willikers]

Hmmmph. If people are rolling their eyes at your excitement over adopting a new dog, you are hanging out with the wrong people! If you told me, I'd grab your hands and jump up and down squealing.

[KrisK]

Willikers...you may be green with envy...cos I get to be the 'sidekick' when Jo goes to get the little fella It's going to be a riot and I MUST refrain from 'stealing' him

[Jack & Co.]

Strange....looking back at old posts, I have found folks to be encouraging and supportive to you with regards to your special needs' dog. KrisK started a lovely thread about Tex on 4/18 and there were many kind posts about your dog. I believe I also saw a reference to your skill in dealing with dogs with disabilities. I didn't get the impression that you were getting weird looks and rolling of eyeballs.

[nancy in AZ]

I think Jo was referring to "real" world people in her comment, not the "internet" coomunity. We couldn't be happier for you and will be anxiously awaiting pics.

[Jo&Tex]

I know you guys all love me and my special little guy. You get the whole "border collie obession" affliction that I have. It's the regular folks around town that just don't get it and wonder what my motivations are.

[Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke]

We had a client who brought us her dog to look at COVERED with bugs (not), then a baggie of poop, running with worms (not-and she tried her best to get us to see it, smashing that mess around through the plastic), and finally, she insisted the DVM to look at her legs, where the bugs had crawled under her skin and were causing her intense itching. All this ended up being an emotional disturbance, and vets have an interesting job, trying to ethically deal with this, pre-suicidal behavior (PTSing their animals or giving them all away), spousal abuse (the indoor cat has a broken leg) and other issues.